Brewing method adding ALL DME at flameout. Derecho IPA. Does it work?

[nasmeyer]

I was searching online for a way to make a better extract IPA and came across this artical in the Austrailian magazine Beer and Brewer. John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff give advice on using distilled water and adding Gypsum to accentuate the hops. They also give a recipe for Derecho IPA which has a method of brewing I have never heard of, and seems go against traditional methods of brewing. You essentially make a hop tea and add all if the malt at flame-out.

Here is the link.
http://beerandbrewer.worldsecuresys...cipe---john-palmer-and-jamil-zainasheffs-ipa/

Here is the recipe and method.
DERECHO IPA
Expected Brew Figures OG: 1061 FG: 1015 ABV: 6.4% IBU: 62 Final Volume: 20 litres
INGREDIENTS 3.5 kg Pale or Light Dry Malt Extract 45g of Cascade (9%) 30g of Columbus (14%) 60g of Amarillo (8.5%) 15g of Simcoe (13%)
METHOD
1. In 1-2 litres of water boil 30g of Cascade and 15g of Columbus for 30 minutes.
2. After 15 minutes add 30g of Amarillo and 15g of Simcoe.
3. Turn off the heat and then add 15g of Cascade and 15g of Columbus and leave for 10-15 minutes.
4. Dissolve the dry malt extract in hot/boiling water.
5. Chill if you have a heat exchange unit – otherwise use chilled water to bring down temperature in fermenter.
6. Add the liquid (wort) and ferment until gravity is consistent over two days. Final Gravity should be about 1015.
7. Add 30g of Amarillo in a hop bag and dry hop for four days.
8. Bottle or keg as normal, then enjoy!

I tried to enter this method into beersmith and came out with a way to low 1.7 Ibu's so Im not sure what I did wrong, or if this recipe is flat wrong.

A few questions.

Has anyone tried this particular method with any success?

Wouldnt boiling 1 or 2 liters of water make a huge difference in hop utilization? Which is right? Shouldnt it be higher like most recipes call for in a boil?

Can someone more adept with beersmith enter this recipe and come out close to 62 ibu's, and tell me what the entered into the "equipment" fields?

When its instructed to disolve the DME in hot/boiling water, are they suggesting adding it to the boiled hop tea or a seperate pot? I would think adding 7lbs of DME to 1 or 2 liters of water would make DME cement!

If I am reading this correctly it seems I would be topping off with 16-17 liters of water?

Beersmith shows Cascade hops to be closer to 5% than the 9% in this recipe. Is this a misprint or have cascade hops increased their acid levels?

I have always thought a hot and cold break were both inportant to good brewing, this method doesnt look like it will create either in relation to the malt, would this pose a problem?

What am I missing so I can wrap my brain around this as it is written? Or did John and Jamil down a couple cases of Derecho before they wrote this?

 

[Ianflean]

No chance at all that will come out with 62 IBU.

Do they say to add yeast? Not mentioned in the recipe..

 

[Ianflean]

Also, just brewed 4kg of Weyerman Pilsner extract (liquid) - 10L boil, 9L top up and got to 1.052 OG.

 

[jrgtr42]

I thought that having at least some of the extract in for the full boil allowed for better hop utilization rates. It has something to do with the extra compounds and so forth combining with the alpha, beta snd so on acids from the hops differently.
Before I went to all-grain, I was adding about half the extract early at the beginning, and the other half around 20 minutes left.

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

I do this all the time for my quickie summer brews. The less sugar in the wort, the better the utilization of the hops.

I use the beer recipe calculator from Brewer's Friend:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/calculator

Set up a recipe for extract, put your hop additions in and replace the alpha acid % with your actual %. For the malt bill, put in the LME and then check "Late Addition". It will calculate the IBUs for your boil without any sugar. Tweak the hop addition timing until you hit the right overall IBUs.

 

[nasmeyer]

They dont mention any strain or type of yeast, but do say to ferment it down to 1.015.

 

[VikingChrisColby]

You can add most of your malt extract at the end of the boil, but you'd be much better off not boiling the hops in just water. Your utilization will go up (because the pH will be higher), but the bitterness will be harsher. Adding enough malt extract to bring the wort density up to SG 1.010–1.020 and boiling the hops in that would be better. Then add the rest of the extract at the end.


Chris Colby
Editor
beerandwinejournal.com

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

They dont mention any strain or type of yeast, but do say to ferment it down to 1.015.

But how do *I* ferment it? Brewing is so hard...

 

[nasmeyer]

I do this all the time for my quickie summer brews. The less sugar in the wort, the better the utilization of the hops.

I use the beer recipe calculator from Brewer's Friend:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/calculator

Set up a recipe for extract, put your hop additions in and replace the alpha acid % with your actual %. For the malt bill, put in the LME and then check "Late Addition". It will calculate the IBUs for your boil without any sugar. Tweak the hop addition timing until you hit the right overall IBUs.

Thunder Chicken, you think this recipe using this method will work using all 8 steps and amounts listed?

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

Maybe. The boil volume is a bit low for my liking. It would be a hop bomb for sure, but not necessarily a good one. Let's see what Brewer's Friend tells us.

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

This is what I get from Brewer's Friend from that recipe - it would be a hop bomb. I've attached the BeerXML file, you can import that into Brewer's Friend and play with it.

You'll get very low IBUs (~ 1 IBU) if you don't do the late addition. This is an effed up recipe. Let's see if we can help you out.

Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.2834 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 0.5283 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.000
Efficiency: 35% (steeping grains only)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.051
Final Gravity: 1.013
ABV (standard): 5.03%
IBU (tinseth): 109.03
SRM (morey): 5.01

FERMENTABLES:
7.7161 lb - Liquid Malt Extract - Light - (late addition) (100%)

HOPS:
30 g - Cascade, Type: Pellet, AA: 7, Use: Boil for 30 min, IBU: 32.09
15 g - Columbus, Type: Pellet, AA: 15, Use: Boil for 30 min, IBU: 34.39
30 g - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.6, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 25.46
15 g - Simcoe, Type: Plug, AA: 12.7, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 17.09

YEAST:
Default - - -
Starter: No
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: Med
Optimum Temp: 66 - 72 F


Generated by Brewer's Friend - http://www.brewersfriend.com/
Date: 2013-11-20 01:18 UTC
Recipe Last Updated: 2013-11-20 01:17 UTC

View attachment DerechoIPA.xml

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

Here is what I would do:

Start the boil with 4 liters
Add the Columbus and and Cascade at 15 minutes.
Add the Amarillo and Simcoe at 10 minutes.
Add all the LME at flameout.

You will have a very hoppy IPA, but tasty and drinkable.

 

[nasmeyer]

This is what I get from Brewer's Friend from that recipe - it would be a hop bomb. I've attached the BeerXML file, you can import that into Brewer's Friend and play with it.

You'll get very low IBUs (~ 1 IBU) if you don't do the late addition. This is an effed up recipe. Let's see if we can help you out.

Dont forget its a 30 minute boil, not 60.

What I dont understand is why does it look like a messed up recipe, but two well known beer guys (apparently?) created it?

 

[nasmeyer]

Here is what I would do:

Start the boil with 4 liters
Add the Columbus and and Cascade at 15 minutes.
Add the Amarillo and Simcoe at 10 minutes.
Add all the LME at flameout.

You will have a very hoppy IPA, but tasty and drinkable.

Would this only be a 15 minute boil and i would still add flameout additions?

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

Would this only be a 15 minute boil and i would still add flameout additions?

Yep. It is a pretty agressive hop schedule but it should be fine. It IS an IPA.

 

[fuzzy2133]

Dont forget its a 30 minute boil, not 60.

What I dont understand is why does it look like a messed up recipe, but two well known beer guys (apparently?) created it?

After reding it I started looking for a date the artical was written. All I found was a copyright year of 2010.

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

Brew it! Do it now!

 

[nasmeyer]

I have another question related to adding the gypsum from the instructions. If I do add gypsum to distilled water to accentuate the hops, and the recipe I use has specialty grains to steep, will the gypsum overly accentuate the spcialty grains too leading to tannin like off flavors?

 

[VikingChrisColby]

In order to hit the target of 62 IBUs, the 1-2 liters the hops are boiled in would need to reach 589 to 1178 IBUs. Also, 3.5 kg of dried malt extract dissolved in 2 liters of water produces a wort with a specific gravity of 1.698.

[Edit: Upon rereading the recipe, it says to dissolve the extract in boiling water. It doesn't give a volume, but apparently, it's not the water the hops were boiled in. It's hard to tell (and that would require another brewpot).]

Chris Colby
Editor
beerandwinejournal.com

 

[beavers]

Brew it! Do it now!

Agreed! I came across this same recipe on the interwebs today, then came across this thread, but haven't found much else about it. I must say I'm fairly intrigued. Has anyone brewed this?