Great info here and I'm definitely weighing my options at this point. Would like to salvage as much of the supplies/ingredients as I can. Really want to try the lager I set out to make, leaning toward maybe compensating by throwing in some dry yeasts to make up the difference, just don't have any DME lying around which is part of the reason I didn't just jump up and make the starter this afternoon. Will sleep on it and hopefully come up with something. If I go the extra yeast via dry pack route, how do I determine the best strain to go with? Saw some people drop names earlier, thoughts?
Brewing first lager today, tips?
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Great info here and I'm definitely weighing my options at this point. Would like to salvage as much of the supplies/ingredients as I can. Really want to try the lager I set out to make, leaning toward maybe compensating by throwing in some dry yeasts to make up the difference, just don't have any DME lying around which is part of the reason I didn't just jump up and make the starter this afternoon. Will sleep on it and hopefully come up with something. If I go the extra yeast via dry pack route, how do I determine the best strain to go with? Saw some people drop names earlier, thoughts?
Care to give ideas of small lagers maybe to try with my bohemian yeast? I'm guessing a starter will still be necessary, but not 11 quarts worth?
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Any recipe can be directly scaled down to a two gallon batch. If you're looking for something different that you can turn around quicker, I'd suggest a California Common. Your Bohemian Lager yeast is well suited for this. Let it go for a couple of weeks in the 65 degree range, then transfer to a secondary for lagering and harvest the yeast from the primary.
This is my lazy way to (sort of) wash yeast. The morning that I'm going to transfer I boil a couple of quarts of water, cover it and let it cool. When transfering I try to get every bit of liquid from above the cake. Add the water to the carboy and stir. Let it settle for 20-30 minutes. Siphon from above the trub, but below the water. Let this settle in the fridge for a few days. Decant the water before using.
But you could just leave a small amount of beer behind when transfering. Stir it to make it easier to pour and put it in a sanitized jar for later use.
This is my lazy way to (sort of) wash yeast. The morning that I'm going to transfer I boil a couple of quarts of water, cover it and let it cool. When transfering I try to get every bit of liquid from above the cake. Add the water to the carboy and stir. Let it settle for 20-30 minutes. Siphon from above the trub, but below the water. Let this settle in the fridge for a few days. Decant the water before using.
But you could just leave a small amount of beer behind when transfering. Stir it to make it easier to pour and put it in a sanitized jar for later use.
Another option to consider, if stepping up a large yeast starter seems daunting to you at this point, is to use a packet or two of dry lager yeast - such as Fermentis Saflager S-23.
+1 on the suggestion re: yeast washing, if you're looking to be more economical and adding another brew-related project. I do it, so it can't be too hard
Definitely looking to plan better in the future and do the yeast washing bit, but would like to avoid that this time.
Any other opinions on using a dry yeast instead? Is the one mentioned a good substitute?
Guess at this point I'm going to weigh the cost of buying more yeast or more DME for a starter and will go the cheaper route.
The saga continues. I smacked the activator pack Sunday, but put it back in the fridge until I could get more DME to make the starter. Got the DME yesterday and took the pack out of the fridge and 14 hours later there are no signs of life - the bag hasn't even begun to expand. I've searched high and low in the pack to ensure the nutrient pack was truly broken and feel there's no way it wasn't. I've shaken and kept it around mid-high 70s the whole time. Born on date says Feb, is it normal to take this long? Do I really need to wait or should I just say screw it and make the starter as is?
Drunkenfool
Well-Known Member
Lagers die off pretty quick. I would wait for the pack to expand before you toss the culture into the starter wort. Most of the yeast in the pack is probably dead but the inside of the pack is sanitary and if it is going to grow best to grow inside the pack before you pitch it into a secondary starter. Your best chances are to leave it and wait for it to grow. If you are on a timeline for the brew just get some new yeast. I say give it some time and it will pick up and go but the population inside the pack will probably is going through a lag phase longer than expected due to its age. I would give it some time, watch for expansion and once you see signs of life pitch it into a small starter and grow it up from there. It will need as much o2 as possible to grow up properly from a small culture so shake/stir it often and then put it in a larger starter and do the same thing unitl it really gets going....
![Craft A Brew - Safale S-04 Dry Yeast - Fermentis - English Ale Dry Yeast - For English and American Ales and Hard Apple Ciders - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [1 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41fVGNh6JfL._SL500_.jpg)
Yeah, if the yeast says "February" it's really old yeast. Make the starter as is, realizing that according to mrmalty.com that yeast is probably only about 10% viable- meaning that you have very few active yeast in there to start with. Give it plenty of time. I'd start small- make a 1/2 L starter first. Let it get going, let it finish up and then add more fresh wort once you have some yeast active and reproduced. Don't just add 3L of wort right away to such a small yeast population.
Drunkenfool
Well-Known Member
Make sure you sanitize whatever you cut that pack open with too. With a struggling yeast culture it is very easy to introduce bacteria into the medium and with a small yeast pop the bacteria could take over. Good luck
I disagree about letting it swell first- even Wyeast's website says that swelling doesn't have to occur, and the swelling isn't reproducing yeast at all. Better to get it into a starter in a small culture to do that.
Drunkenfool
Well-Known Member
disagree about letting it swell first- even Wyeast's website says that swelling doesn't have to occur, and the swelling isn't reproducing yeast at all. Better to get it into a starter in a small culture to do that.
though agreed that yeast does not give of co2 during the lag phase. Yeast that old needs time to incubate or you are going to put way too little yeast into an enviroment that is more opent to infection if you do not let it get underway in the environment provided by the lab in the pack. for yeast that old and with a lager anyhow you need a decent starter for good fermentation but that stuff needs to grow for a good clip and best to do so in the pack first. 14 hours is not a lot of time in that smack pack given the age of the yeast. I would wait to see it offgassing or at least give it another full day before opening it up and risking infection.
though agreed that yeast does not give of co2 during the lag phase. Yeast that old needs time to incubate or you are going to put way too little yeast into an enviroment that is more opent to infection if you do not let it get underway in the environment provided by the lab in the pack. for yeast that old and with a lager anyhow you need a decent starter for good fermentation but that stuff needs to grow for a good clip and best to do so in the pack first. 14 hours is not a lot of time in that smack pack given the age of the yeast. I would wait to see it offgassing or at least give it another full day before opening it up and risking infection.
johnnyt471
Well-Known Member
a little off-topic, but...
are you sure you screwed up? how much time did you give it in the fermenter and in the bottle?
Drunkenfool
Well-Known Member
Dont give up. you are almost there (to really good beer). you have to take care of the yeast....if this is your first lager I assume you jumped from 2 ale sessions which did not turn out...this is okay but lagers are much different beasts than ales and you have to now do a few more things to make sure you get good beer in the end....a big healthy pitch of yeast is paramout. it should ideally be pitched 5-7 degrees under fermentation temp and allowed to rise to the ferm temp during lag/growth phase. also if you are using lighter malt do a longer boil and make sure you get the word below 140d as fast as possible to avoid the dreaded dms. if you have to cool the wort after the pitch then do a diacetyl rest........Fermentation control is very important so you have that, sanitation also very important the third major thing is good healthy yeast. if it is a light beer you hae to do the dms/diacetyl avoidance measures or the flaws will shine right through....(or u could make a few ipas or a stout to get your process chops down first)
good luck and cheers
good luck and cheers
Primary 2.5 weeks, secondary 3 weeks, bottles 5 weeks and beyond. Still have a few left I crack open on occasion and the results never change. Flat and sometimes very sweet, sometimes heavy alcohol, never consistent. Something definitely seems to have gone wrong somewhere.
Give it some time- it may have already fermented out though. A small starter can ferment out in the blink of an eye, it seems like. If you're unsure, you could always add some fresh wort, or check the SG.
Good call, I'll check the SG tonight (should be looking around 1.040?) and then what? Just make a bigger starter and add to the slurry of this or another same sized starter?
If the starter was 1.040 at the beginning, it should be lower if it's fermenting/fermented. If it's not even started, you could shake/swirl and wait until it does start up before stepping it up.
Give it a day, at least, or until it's completely fermented out.
Just an update, made the big (2.75 gal) starter Sunday night and by morning it was bubbling away like a champ. So, seems the yeast are all alive and doing their thing finally - glad I didn't just pitch that pack, who knows how long I'd have been waiting for who knows what to happen! Thanks for all the help, I'm sure I'll post more before brewing Saturday, this time for real!
Just cracked open my first bottle after two weeks of bottle conditioning and was delightfully surprised. Turned out very well as far as I can tell, and hopefully after another week or two it will feel more fully carbonated throughout and not just in the head formation. Color turned out as hoped, taste is pretty close, no off flavors that I can sense, overall glad I went out on a limb to try something a bit harder and definitely thankful for everyone's input here!
