Brewing first lager today, tips?

[cerveteca]

This will be my third attempt at brewing and I'm hoping for something drinkable this time. Mistakes I've made in the past were keeping everything sanitary (which I have since had pounded into me), too high fermentation temperature (which I now have a temp controlled freezer to manage), and low carbonation...which I'm still not sure how to manage.

Going for a partial grain Sam Adams Winter Lager clone (http://www.byo.com/stories/recipein...74-sam-adams-winter-brew-clone-the-replicator), so I've got four questions:

1) Without having a keg at my disposal, is there some secret to properly carbonating when forced to bottle condition? First batch I did I used priming sugar and it was a tad under-carbonated. Second I used DME and it was terribly flat.
2) In the instructions it only says to put in glass carboy and later bottle - does this imply there will be no secondary fermentation transfer? I've read in the FAQ a lot of people saying secondary is often unnecessary except maybe for clarifying. For my purposes is that the case?
3) Some lager instructions say to drop the temp 1-2 degrees every day or so, starting at 55 and working down to around 32, during fermentation. This one just says ferment between 55-50. Which approach should I employ?
4) I have read a few things today concerning me about pitching the yeast. I got one of the wyeast activation packs, but I've read stuff about making a starter and other steps needed before pitching. Is that necessary?

If you couldn't tell, I'm a paranoid simpleton (I know, relax, have a homebrew) and I am just a bit discouraged that this is allegedly so easy and I've yet to make something drinkable in two valiant (in my opinion) tries. I've read books, scoured forums and generally been researching for about two years now and just feel like somewhere I'm either over-complicating things or I'm reading things too advanced that are confusing me and making me complicate my approach. lil help?

 

[geer537]

4) I have read a few things today concerning me about pitching the yeast. I got one of the wyeast activation packs, but I've read stuff about making a starter and other steps needed before pitching. Is that necessary?

You should be fine without making a separate starter with the activation packs. Just 'smack' the pack to break the bubble inside about 24 hours before you use it and leave it at room temp. It'll swell up pretty good. The activator pack essentially is a starter in a bag that activates when you break the bubble inside.

 

[Drunkenfool]

Starters r important especially with lagers but I agree u will b ok with the smack pack. With a lager, if the recipe has light grains or extract you need to boil for 90 min and then get the whole volume of wort cool quick to avoid dms. If you use an Ic make sure you stir the wort as u cool. If u can get the wort down below fermentation temp it is best to let the temp rise to ferm temps. O2 is also very important to lager yeast making a good crispnclean lager. If u can't get the temp down do a good dactyl rest when ferm slows

 

[Drunkenfool]

Sorry. What I meant was it ts best to pitch below firm temp and let it rise to the firm temps. This helps lessen final diacetyl and eliminates the need for the ending rest.

 

[Yooper]

You should be fine without making a separate starter with the activation packs. Just 'smack' the pack to break the bubble inside about 24 hours before you use it and leave it at room temp. It'll swell up pretty good. The activator pack essentially is a starter in a bag that activates when you break the bubble inside.

I disagree- lagers need about 3-4 times the amount of yeast as you'll find in a smack pack. A starter is important for an ale over 1.050 or so, but it's critical for a lager. I wouldn't even attempt to brew a lager without a starter.

About the fermentation temperatures- usually you can find the optimum fermentation temperature on the yeast manufacturer's website. Most often, it's 48-55 degrees for lager strains. You want to pitch at that temp (even though the instructions say you can pitch at 70 and drop the temp if you want to, it's not great practice for the best tasting lager), and keep it there until it's about finished. When the lager is about 75% of the way to it's projected FG or about 1.020 or so, you can raise the temperature to 68 degrees for the diacetyl rest. You don't have to do a diacetyl rest, but many lager yeast strains produce diacetyl, and it won't get "cleaned up" at lager temps.

After the diacetyl rest, and the beer is at it's FG, you can rack to secondary. That's when you begin dropping the temperature. Some lower the temperature 5 degrees per day, while some lower the temperature right away. I do it gradually, as some research I've read in old German textbooks (provided by Kai Troester) talk about the yeast still working a bit at lower temperatures if the temperature is reduced gradually. In any case, you will want to lager for approximately one week for every 8-10 points of OG. So, for a 1.060 OG lager, for example, you'll lager for 6-8 weeks.

After lagering, you can use the traditional amount of priming sugar. I always use 1 ounce (by weight) per gallon. If you've lagered for a very long time, or the lager is especially clear, it won't hurt to add about 1/3 package of dry yeast into your cooled priming solution to ensure enough active yeast for carbonation. 1/3 of a package, or about 3-4 grams, is plenty.

 

[cerveteca]

I disagree- lagers need about 3-4 times the amount of yeast as you'll find in a smack pack. A starter is important for an ale over 1.050 or so, but it's critical for a lager. I wouldn't even attempt to brew a lager without a starter.

Ok, I'll do a search, but is there a quick way to make a starter from what I've got or am I screwed if I intended to brew today?

About the fermentation temperatures- usually you can find the optimum fermentation temperature on the yeast manufacturer's website. Most often, it's 48-55 degrees for lager strains. You want to pitch at that temp (even though the instructions say you can pitch at 70 and drop the temp if you want to, it's not great practice for the best tasting lager), and keep it there until it's about finished. When the lager is about 75% of the way to it's projected FG or about 1.020 or so, you can raise the temperature to 68 degrees for the diacetyl rest. You don't have to do a diacetyl rest, but many lager yeast strains produce diacetyl, and it won't get "cleaned up" at lager temps.

After the diacetyl rest, and the beer is at it's FG, you can rack to secondary. That's when you begin dropping the temperature. Some lower the temperature 5 degrees per day, while some lower the temperature right away. I do it gradually, as some research I've read in old German textbooks (provided by Kai Troester) talk about the yeast still working a bit at lower temperatures if the temperature is reduced gradually. In any case, you will want to lager for approximately one week for every 8-10 points of OG. So, for a 1.060 OG lager, for example, you'll lager for 6-8 weeks.

So, if I'm understanding the order of operations here, I want to bring the wort all the way to 48-55 quickly in the primary bucket, then pitch the yeast (should the yeast be 48-55 too or around 70ish?) and let it stay there for a couple weeks or until it is 75% to its FG, then bring up to 68 for another week or so for the diacetyl rest until FG is reached, only then do I transfer to a glass carboy for secondary and here I begin dropping the temp? Do I begin dropping from 68 or does it matter?

Thanks for all the prompt replies, exactly what I need.

 

[Yooper]

Ok, I'll do a search, but is there a quick way to make a starter from what I've got or am I screwed if I intended to brew today?

Well, if you are brewing today, you won't have a starter ready. Next time, consult mrmalty.com and click on his "pitching calculator". That will help you pitch the correct amount of yeast and make the right sized starter for your batch based on yeast age and the OG of the wort. He has great information on starters, too: http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.htm

So, if I'm understanding the order of operations here, I want to bring the wort all the way to 48-55 quickly in the primary bucket, then pitch the yeast (should the yeast be 48-55 too or around 70ish?) and let it stay there for a couple weeks or until it is 75% to its FG, then bring up to 68 for another week or so for the diacetyl rest until FG is reached, only then do I transfer to a glass carboy for secondary and here I begin dropping the temp? Do I begin dropping from 68 or does it matter?

Thanks for all the prompt replies, exactly what I need.

Well, yes. Pitch the yeast at a temperature close to the wort temperature. You can "temper" the yeast if it's a big temperature difference by adding some wort a little at a time to the yeast starter (or the yeast in a sanitized container) if the yeast is at room temperature and the wort is at 50 degrees. I like to take my yeast out of the fridge when I'm chilling the wort (remember, I've made a HUGE starter, and then I just decant the spent wort) and pitch 46 degree yeast into 48-50 degree wort). If the yeast and the wort are at different temperatures it won't matter too much, but try to get it close if you can.

About the fermentation schedule- it's hard to time a lager just by time. If you're underpitching by so much, you may want to start it warmer and drop the temperature as it gets going. Otherwise, it might take 4-5 days just for fermentation to get started. Usually, I do a diacetyl rest between day 10 and day 14, depending on how fast the fermentation progresses. The diacetyl rest takes about 24-48 hours, and once the beer is finished it is racked for lagering. That's when the temperature drop starts.

 

[cerveteca]

Thanks Yooper, was just reading in the FAQ section about starters - doesn't look to tough, so I'll definitely get on that next batch.

By starting the fermentation warmer due to underpitching what temp range would you recommend?

 

[Yooper]

Thanks Yooper, was just reading in the FAQ section about starters - doesn't look to tough, so I'll definitely get on that next batch.

By starting the fermentation warmer due to underpitching what temp range would you recommend?

I don't know- I've never done it. I see that White Labs says to start it at 70 degrees, and then lower it when you see signs of fermentation. I'd be concerned that lowering it too slowly would allow fermentation to be over before you got to 50 degrees, though. I'd also be concerned about the reverse- lowering it too quickly and stalling fermentation. So, maybe pitch at 70 and lower it to 65 right away? And then lower it again once fermentation starts? I really don't know, that's just a guess as to how I'd do it.

 

[boo boo]

Thanks Yooper, was just reading in the FAQ section about starters - doesn't look to tough, so I'll definitely get on that next batch.

By starting the fermentation warmer due to underpitching what temp range would you recommend?

I'd go with Yoopers first post and nothing else.
If you don't plan on doing it right, how do you expect to get the beer right.
Having the proper yeast count and pitched at optimum fermenting temperatures are critical ( in my opinion ) to making proper lagers.
Have you access to dry yeast like W34/70 or S-189? you can pitch 20 grams or so of these yeasts in place of a proper liquid yeast starter as the cell count will be the same as doing a starter.
I am waiting right now as my wort cools down to 50f so I can pitch 60 grams of S-189 yeast into a lager I just finished brewing.

 

[KevinW]

Bring two cups of water to a simmer(not a heavy boil) add 4.5 ounces of corn sugar and stir to dissolve! If you don't have a scale then do 3/4 cup of corn sugar and get a scale later!

Simmer(not a heavy boil) for about 10 minutes to sanitize then add directly to the beer in the bottling bucket/vessel.

After adding the sugar stir GENTLY for at least 5 minutes to help the sugar mix well.

Bottle the beer and after about 2-3 weeks you should be good!
This is good for ~5 gallons, obviously adjust for more or less beer!!

I have done this for all but my first batch(hence the 5 minute stir and they are all carbed fine!!

Good luck and keep on brewing

 

[cerveteca]

I'd go with Yoopers first post and nothing else.
If you don't plan on doing it right, how do you expect to get the beer right.

Well, I guess as an optimistic newb I assumed the instructions provided on the byo site with the recipe would have covered such apparently critical issues. Should I just not even bother at this point? I don't know if any of the semi-local shops are open today.

 

[Yooper]

Well, I guess as an optimistic newb I assumed the instructions provided on the byo site with the recipe would have covered such apparently critical issues. Should I just not even bother at this point? I don't know if any of the semi-local shops are open today.

Which yeast strain are you using? If it's liquid, a starter is pretty much a necessity as we've discussed.

I guess it depends on how you feel about the risk- you could try it without a starter, and buy more yeast tomorrow if you want. Or try my suggestion about lowering the temperature.

If it was me, though, I'd make a starter today and step it up in two days, then stick it in the fridge on Thursday or Friday, and brew my beer next weekend. I know that other people have made lagers without a huge starter, but I've never even attempted it.

 

[cerveteca]

Wyeast 2124 Bohemian Lager, although recipe calls for Bavarian, my shop didn't have it. I definitely don't want to waste the stuff I got - feel like I got ripped off actually, the grain, malt and yeast somehow came to $70, last two batches were in the $30 range. Is there a dry yeast I could use today if I could find it? Just saw one shop that's open, but it's like 30 miles away.

 

[cerveteca]

Guess I'm not brewing today. Just used that mrmalty.com pitching calculator and it says I'll need a 2.78 gallon (10.51 li) starter with one yeast pack...that can't be right?

 

[Yooper]

Guess I'm not brewing today. Just used that mrmalty.com pitching calculator and it says I'll need a 2.78 gallon (10.51 li) starter with one yeast pack...that can't be right?

Yeah, that seems about right. That's why I make it a week in advance- to allow it to ferment out, and add more wort a couple of days later if needed, and then ferment that out. When it's finished, I stick it in the fridge for at least two days so that the yeast will drop to the bottom and I can pour off the spent wort before pitching into my fresh new batch of wort.

You can probably just use three packs of yeast if you don't want to make a starter, depending on the age of the yeast and the OG of the beer. You can try that in the calculator.

 

[geer537]

Take it from Yooper. I'm still on ales and have read several books but obviously he is the man! Thanks for the lesson Yooper!

 

[cerveteca]

Yeah, that seems about right. That's why I make it a week in advance- to allow it to ferment out, and add more wort a couple of days later if needed, and then ferment that out. When it's finished, I stick it in the fridge for at least two days so that the yeast will drop to the bottom and I can pour off the spent wort before pitching into my fresh new batch of wort.

You can probably just use three packs of yeast if you don't want to make a starter, depending on the age of the yeast and the OG of the beer. You can try that in the calculator.

Ah, pardon my ignorance, but the reason I doubted the volume was because I thought you add the starter, liquid and all, to the wort and that just seemed insane. So, you're saying you dump most of the liquid out of the starter then pitch the yeast that has settled, right?

 

[Yooper]

Take it from Yooper. I'm still on ales and have read several books but obviously he is the man! Thanks for the lesson Yooper!

Er, thanks. I think.



You CAN pitch the whole starter of course, but in the case of lagers I don't think it's a great idea. First, it's oxygenated spent wort, hopless, and it won't taste very good. Secondly, that's a lot of wort and would be nearly half a batch! I like to chill for several days (lager yeast take a while to fall out in the fridge) and then just pitch the yeast. The other thing to keep in mind is that you can do your lager starter at room temperature, as you're growing yeast, not making good tasting beer. Yeast grow faster at warmer temperatures, so I do my lager yeast starters in the 60s in my house (my house is generally cold-ish).

For a small ale starter, I often will pitch the whole thing. But it's usually a liter or two, not a gallon or two!

 

[Wellshooter]

You don't say where in Texas you are but in general the state has pretty hard water. Hard water will make your beer bitter. Since you are going to have to back off and build a starter, start thinking about your water. In my town water correction is the key to making a palatable brew.

 

[cerveteca]

You don't say where in Texas you are but in general the state has pretty hard water. Hard water will make your beer bitter. Since you are going to have to back off and build a starter, start thinking about your water. In my town water correction is the key to making a palatable brew.

I'm in Ft. Worth, but I've always used bottled spring water when I brew, never tap.

Researching now how best to make my starter and if I should do it today. The mrmalty.com site doesn't say how much DME to add to the water, is that a value I have to back into? Also, on the Wyeast site it says for a lager to make a 2 liter starter - is that just a general statement and not wise for my situation where I have a higher-ish (1.069) SG?

Thanks everyone for your patience!

 

[Yooper]

I'm in Ft. Worth, but I've always used bottled spring water when I brew, never tap.

Researching now how best to make my starter and if I should do it today. The mrmalty.com site doesn't say how much DME to add to the water, is that a value I have to back into? Also, on the Wyeast site it says for a lager to make a 2 liter starter - is that just a general statement and not wise for my situation where I have a higher-ish (1.060) SG?

Thanks everyone for your patience!

You can use 1/2 cup of DME per two cups of water for every starter- just scale up when you need a bigger starter. So, for a quart starter, you use one cup DME and so on.

The Wyeast site is giving you the absolute minimum size of a starter for a lager, and I'd go with mrmalty.com. Or, at least pick a happy medium and go between them if a 2 gallon starter seems ridiculous to you. Maybe do a 4L starter, at least. Mrmalty.com is probably the correct amount for an optimum pitch, but I'm the first one to admit that it's not always feasible to do that.

I LOVE Wyeast's site, with their facts and figures on every strain of yeast but I'm not too happy with their info on starters and lagers. I think it's because they don't take into account the age of the smack-pack and/or the way it may have been treated when it left their facility. Really, any starter would be better than none, but you really want to grow enough yeast to get your lager to ferment correctly without any off-flavors. Esters particularly will be more apparent in a lager than an ale.

 

[cerveteca]

Ok, so let me make sure I'm getting this. I'm going to make a starter for my SA Winter Lager clone recipe that has a SG of 1.069. mrmalty.com says with one yeast pack I will need 2.78 gallons or 11.11 quarts of wort, so 11 cups of DME. should I just boil until fully mixed or is there a key to the time? Also, do I need to take a gravity reading on this or should I just chill, pitch the yeast and let it do its thing?

Promise I'm about done with the questions (for now), very anxious to start.

 

[Yooper]

Ok, so let me make sure I'm getting this. I'm going to make a starter for my SA Winter Lager clone recipe that has a SG of 1.069. mrmalty.com says with one yeast pack I will need 2.78 gallons or 11.11 quarts of wort, so 11 cups of DME. should I just boil until fully mixed or is there a key to the time? Also, do I need to take a gravity reading on this or should I just chill, pitch the yeast and let it do its thing?

Promise I'm about done with the questions (for now), very anxious to start.

Well, let's see. 1/2 cup DME per 2 cups. 1 cup DME per quart. 4 cups DME per gallon. 8 cups in two gallons. Yeah, you're right! There's an easier way, doing it by weight if you have a scale, by the way. For a 1000 ml, use 100 grams of DME (100x10=1000). For a 2000 ml use 200 grams of DME and add enough water to make 2000 ml of wort (200x10=2000). And so on.

Once you bring it to a boil, just boil it for about 15 minutes to make sure it's sanitized completely. Cool in a water bath, pour into the sanitized carboy (or whatever you're using) and cover with sanitized foil. Shake it up to aerate it, and add the yeast. After that, shake it up intermittently each time you walk by it. No need for an airlock- the sanitized foil is fine. Once it's completely fermented out, you can chill it.

 

[AnOldUR]

May be it's just me, but I find these big starters to be a PITA. I'd rather plan my brew days to include a low gravity 2-3 gallon lager. In 2-3 weeks you'll have a nice slurry to pitch into a bigger, better beer. Plus you'll get an extra case of beer for your efforts.

 

[cerveteca]

May be it's just me, but I find these big starters to be a PITA. I'd rather plan my brew days to include a low gravity 2-3 gallon lager. In 2-3 weeks you'll have a nice slurry to pitch into a bigger, better beer. Plus you'll get an extra case of beer for your efforts.

While this sounds ideal, remember you are speaking to a slow thinking, poor planning newb. Can you define slurry for me? Is this the mess at the bottom of the primary when you transfer to secondary? How does this work?

 

[Yooper]

While this sounds ideal, remember you are speaking to a slow thinking, poor planning newb. Can you define slurry for me? Is this the mess at the bottom of the primary when you transfer to secondary? How does this work?

You ARE not slow thinking. It's actually NOT intuitive that lagers would need big starters and critical temperature control, so you're actually way ahead of many noobs with your thoughts on how to create the best lager you can.
Don't sell yourself short!

Yes- the slurry is the yeast cake that is at the bottom of the primary when the beer is finished. In some cases like this, a smaller sized low OG batch of beer is the perfect starter. I've never done it with lagers (the whole poor planning issue rears its head for me) but I've done it with ales that use a yeast I like and want to propagate.

Yeast is expensive, so a way to save money (and make good quality beer) is to look into yeast washing, which separates the yeast from the other stuff in the yeast cake. Then you can save whole jars of yeast without buying more yeast. That's from the slurry, too. (But a whole 'nother topic!).

Anyway, AnOldUR is correct- you can make a small lager and then use the yeast for your bigger lager later on.

 

[Pappers_]

Er, thanks. I think.

Play hockey, shoot critters, brew beer and soon everyone thinks you're a guy . . .

 

[Pappers_]

Another option to consider, if stepping up a large yeast starter seems daunting to you at this point, is to use a packet or two of dry lager yeast - such as Fermentis Saflager S-23.

+1 on the suggestion re: yeast washing, if you're looking to be more economical and adding another brew-related project. I do it, so it can't be too hard

 

[RonRock]

Good info here.
Not to be rude, this is just a thought.
Maybe the OP should save the Lager for a couple weeks and brew a couple faster (easier) Ales in the meantime. You've spent a good chunk on the Lager. You could gain some experience and make a big starter in the mean time. And have some decent homebrew in a few weeks while you wait for the Lager. Just a thought.

Either way you have gotten some good help here.