Brewing an IPA using Lager yeast (Wyeast 2124)

[orford]

Greetings all. So I have a couple of questions centering around the recipe below:
Francine

Style: American IPA
Boil Size: 5.65 Gal
IBU's: 31.75
Batch Size: 5.50 Gal
Color: 5.3 SRM c
Boil Time: 20 minutes
OG: 1.066
FG: 1.015
ABV: 6.68 %
Efficiency:75 %

Grains & Adjuncts
AmountPercentageName n nnnnnnnTime Gravity
14.00 lbs100.00 %Simpsons Maris Otter60 mins1.038

Hops
AmountIBU'sNameTimeAA %
1.00 ozs 20.56Simcoe20 mins13.00
1.00 ozs 6.77Simcoe5 mins13.00
1.00 ozs 4.42Amarillo Gold5 mins 8.50
1.00 ozs 0.00Simcoe0 mins13.00
1.00 ozs 0.00Amarillo Gold0 mins 8.50
1.00 ozsSimcoe60 days13.00
1.00 ozsAmarillo Gold60 days 8.50
1.00 ozsCentennial60 days10.00

Yeasts
AmountNameLaboratory / ID
1.0 pkgBohemian LagerWyeast Labs 2124

Additions
AmountNameTimeStage
1.00 oz Irish Moss 15 mins Boil

Mash Profile
Medium Body Infusion In60 min @ 154.0°F
Add 17.50 qt ( 1.25 qt/lb ) water @ 166.0°F
Sparge
Sparge 14.38 qt of 170.0°F water over 60 mins

www.iBrewMaster.comVersion: 1.536

I have two lagers going right now which should be ready to keg this weekend. I was thinking of harvesting the yeast cake for this IPA. I have a couple of questions. What will a lager yeast do at ale temps? Will there be as much hydrogen sulfide (poop smell)? Will I need to lager or can I go straight into bottles/kegs?

 

[daveooph131]

Having not done a lager yeast at an ale temp but reading about it I would suspect terrible off flavors and a undrinkable beer.

Why not just make the ipa with the lager yeast and ferment at normal lager yeast temps? You'll end up with a clean yeast profile allowing the hops to shine

 

[chickypad]

Why not just make the ipa with the lager yeast and ferment at normal lager yeast temps? You'll end up with a clean yeast profile allowing the hops to shine

Agreed. Here is an article on IPL's from November BYO.

 

[kh54s10]

I have made a couple of hybrid brews using lager yeast and fermented at ale temperatures. I followed recipes. One was Northern Brewers John Q. Adams Marblehead Lager using Wyeast 2112 California Lager. It turned out great. I don't know about the other lager yeasts. But, there are some that do pretty well at making an ale more like a lager.

 

[daveooph131]

The California lager yeast is meant to ferment warm at ale temps so I don't think that is a good comparison IMO

 

[ahpsp]

I am by no means an expert in this, but I recently fermented a Biere de Garde with a lager yeast at about 60 degrees. I have not bottled, but there were no horrible off flavors in the gravity sample I drank. There was fruitiness from the yeast, but not more than you might get from some ale yeasts.

 

[kombat]

No offense, but this recipe is a mess. Only a 20 minute boil? 32 IBUs for an IPA? Fermenting with lager yeast at ale temperatures? I'm sorry, but there are a lot of things wrong with this plan.

 

[progmac]

1.00 ozsSimcoe60 days13.00
1.00 ozsAmarillo Gold60 days 8.50
1.00 ozsCentennial60 days10.00

??????????????

 

[chickypad]

No offense, but this recipe is a mess. Only a 20 minute boil? 32 IBUs for an IPA? Fermenting with lager yeast at ale temperatures? I'm sorry, but there are a lot of things wrong with this plan.

I think it's supposed to be a 60 min boil with hopbursting from 20 down. Although agreed probably not enough hops for that. Seems like a number of the commercial IPL's are bittered a little lower than a lot of the AIPA's these days, but not quite that low, more in the 45-55 range. Not sure what that means with the dryhop - typo? is that supposed to be 6 days?

 

[kh54s10]

The California lager yeast is meant to ferment warm at ale temps so I don't think that is a good comparison IMO

I did quote a recipe and a specific yeast. AND noted that I did not know about other lager yeasts at ale temperatures.

I was just stating that it IS possible.

 

[stpug]

Wyeast 2124 can work very successfully at 60-64F. I did a cal common using 2124 and it came out very good.

The recipe is another story with the boil times

 

[orford]

Wow, so much negativity. For starters, the dry hop was a typo. The software I use always puts the dry hop at 60 days automatically. I would most likely dry hop in the keg for a week or so. Secondly, a lot of breweries (Alesmith, Firestone to name two) are using only 20 or 30 minute additions as their earliest in their IPAs. I would recommend everyone takes a look at this article http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.php. Thirdly, I have read several places that 2124 at 60-64F is pretty good. I guess my question is more for people who have done so, what was your experience with it.

 

[mkeckjr]

I have not done an IPA with this yeast at ale temps, but I did an IPA/IPL comparison with US-05 vs WLP830 (which is WY2124, I'm pretty sure). US-05 was fermented at ale temps (66 F) and 830 at lager (50 F). I will say those who wish to do these two at the prescribed temp range may as well just use US-05 because it is extremely (lager-level) clean under 70 F.

I have (not with IPAs) experimented with 830 vs 820 (WY2206) vs 838 (WY2308) at different temps, and my conclusion was that 830 was the cleanest of the group when fermented closer to ale temps. The other two kick off too much diacetyl, 820 especially. And 838 is not a great diacetyl reducer. So, if you're going to go with a pure lager yeast at ale temps, I would say WLP830/WY2124 is your best bet. I know this doesn't specifically answer your question, since I didn't do your exact experiment, but maybe this can help.

 

[stpug]

Wow, so much negativity. For starters, the dry hop was a typo. The software I use always puts the dry hop at 60 days automatically. I would most likely dry hop in the keg for a week or so. Secondly, a lot of breweries (Alesmith, Firestone to name two) are using only 20 or 30 minute additions as their earliest in their IPAs. I would recommend everyone takes a look at this article http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.php. Thirdly, I have read several places that 2124 at 60-64F is pretty good. I guess my question is more for people who have done so, what was your experience with it.

While those breweries may be adding the bulk of the bittering units at those times, they are certainly boiling a full 60 minutes if not 90+. Your recipe states a 20 minute total boil which is generally regarded as insufficient for all grain beers for various reasons. Additionally, you IBU calculations are VERY low for the style of beer you're making (~30IBU) when you should be double that. I wouldn't so much consider it negativity as much as "word of warning" about your recipe. If you post a recipe then it's we expect you'll follow: 60 day dryhop, 20 total boil, 30 IBUs. If it's not what you intend then you should state so in your initial post. Take the criticism for what it's worth.

 

[Beezer94]

Straight from Wyeast's website:

YEAST STRAIN: 2124 | Bohemian Lager™

Back to Yeast Strain List

This Carlsberg type yeast is the most widely used lager strain in the world. This strain produces a distinct malty profile with some ester character and a crisp finish. A versatile strain, that is great to use with lagers or Pilsners for fermentations in the 45-55°F (8-12°C) range. It may also be used for Common beer production with fermentations at 65-68°F (18-20°C). A thorough diacetyl rest is recommended after fermentation is complete.

Origin:
Flocculation: Medium-low
Attenuation: 73-77%
Temperature Range: 45-68F, 8-22C
Alcohol Tolerance: 9% ABV

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=30

 

[Bearclaw215]

It depends on what your shooting for. I've considered doing this as well and put in a fair amount of research. Most lager yeast will produce weird stuff at ale temps which is undesirable. Id ferment at lager temps and stick with your plan. I've been recently going cold with fermentation like 7-10 degrees colder than recommend. It's led to month long fermentations but even young beers have been tasting amazing right out the gate

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[orford]

Fair enough Pug. I was planning on a 60 minute boil. Again, a typo carried across by my software. I was trying to keep the IBUs low on purpose as my regular drinking crowd likes a less harsh IPA. I could easily drop in another oz of Simcoe at the 20 minute mark which would get me above 50 IBU.

 

[stpug]

Fair enough Pug. I was planning on a 60 minute boil. Again, a typo carried across by my software. I was trying to keep the IBUs low on purpose as my regular drinking crowd likes a less harsh IPA. I could easily drop in another oz of Simcoe at the 20 minute mark which would get me above 50 IBU.

I like your idea of another one at 20min. Another point to consider regarding IBUs is how hot and long your steep will be after the boil. I was figuring you'd do a 60min boil but wasn't sure. Overall it seems like you're on track for a good beer.

 

[orford]

As an update. I ended up only using a 20 minute addition per my original post and used US05. The beer came out beautiful. Nice round hop bitterness, IBUs were at about 50 or so. I am a really big fan of the late hop addition for buttering as I think it softens the bittering. Anyway, solid beer, took a couple of growlers to a party, no-one knew it was homebrew, people were asking left and right where it was from. Disappeared in about 20 minutes..


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[JordanKnudson]

Just read through this. Glad it turned out well! (Even if you didn't end up getting to try out a lager yeast).

I wanted to also suggest for the future that if you like a softer bitterness, try playing with first wort hopping. It's a great way to bump up your "measured" IBUs while actually creating a less sharp bitterness on the palate. I love doing a first wort hop as my "bittering" addition, then loading up on hops in the last 15-20 minutes and at flameout. IMHO, this is one of the best ways to get great hop flavor and aroma AND get your IBUs into higher ranges without creating a harsh bitterness (which sometimes we may want, but clearly your drinkers do not prefer).