Brewing a good IPA, excess tannin extraction, steeping with base grain

[nasmeyer]

I have brewed a few extract batches of different IPA’s with varying but somewhat common and disappointing results. Most of them have the same off flavors, most of them do not have nearly the same hop flavor or aroma as a store bought IPA, and they don’t seem to be as bitter as I expect. I will try some new tricks with my next batch which is an Austin HBS American IPA-I.

I will be doing a full boil for the first time, I am using all DME, I switched to a stainless pot (never really trusted aluminum even though most people say it is no problem) I am using all distilled or R.O. water, and I will add a small amount of gypsum to the boil.

I do have a couple of concerns and question regarding excess tannin extraction and steeping specialty grains with base grains added. The grains in the recipe are… 8oz 2-row malt, 4oz Special B Malt, and 1lb Crystal 60L Malt. These grains have all been crushed and mixed together in the same bag. I have steeped specialty grains before at 155* for 30 mins or so, but this has the base grain added. I thought base grains needed to steep at 155* and then be rinsed with 170* water. Am I wrong to think that proper conversion of the base grain won’t happen if I only stay at 155*? And if I go ahead and rinse with 170* water won’t I extract unwanted tannins from the specialty grains? The instructions call for 25 minutes at 155*.

This brings up a second question. I have read in one of these posts that Chris Colby mentioned one of the most common off flavors in extract brewing is excess tannin extraction, he suggests steeping the specialty grains in a weak wort of 1010, steeping in campden treated water, or treating the steeping water with 5.2 PH tablets. I know it sounds like overkill, but I have yet to brew a great IPA and would like to try one or all of these suggestions. Any tips or ideas on which (or all?) of these I should try? Is this more complicated now that I am steeping some base grain with my specialty grains?

 

[jescholler]

I think you're well on your way to a great IPA. Regarding the steeping (actually you would be mashing if you had the correct water to grain ratio, say 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain) temperature, all of the conversion will happen at 155F. The reason some people raise to 170F is to stop enzyme action and to make the wort easier to runoff. For you, I think it's optional. You're probably at less of a risk of tannin extraction if you skip the rinse at 170F step.

About your second question, you shouldn't need to treat with campden because you're using RO or distilled water, which shouldn't have chlorine. Some people swear by 5.2, but my belief is that it can bring its own set of off flavors due to excess sodium. You can probably add some of the DME to the mash to get your gravity up slightly, but I wouldn't consider it necessary. It wouldn't hurt though. For treating your water, I recommend following the guidelines given by ajdelange in a sticky in the brew science forums:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

It probably won't make a huge difference for you though if you just went with 100% RO or distilled water without any minerals.

I'm very interested to hear how this beer turns out. Please let us know. Good luck!

 

[statseeker]

I would agree with the above. Dont rinse at 170. For doing a partial mash, I dont think that step is necessary because most of the effect you want from the grain will be acheived by that steeping. No real need to rinse, if that makes sense. Most of the sugar is in the DME anyway. The specialty grains are more for adding subtle flavor components and color than to add sugar to the wort.

 

[jescholler]

You mentioned a lot about your steeping, water, and boiling. Your off flavors could be yeast related. Can you tell us about your process with things related to yeast. What yeast are you using? If liquid, are you using starters? What is your process with starters? If dry, how are you pitching it? What temperature are you pitching at? What temperature are you fermenting at? Are you controlling the fermentation temperature? If so, how? How long are you fermenting? Are you doing secondaries? What type of vessels are you fermenting in? Are you bottle conditioning? What temperatures are you storing your beers at?

That's all I can think of for now. Hopefully it's not overwhelming.

 

[Yooper]

If you're getting some astringency, I'd suggest not using the gypsum, which would enhance bitterness/harshness.

I wouldn't add 5.2 stabilizer. If you have a full water report, then perhaps gypsum would be warranted (depending on the other things in your water) but I'd definitely not add anything to the water at this point.

 

[nasmeyer]

You mentioned a lot about your steeping, water, and boiling. Your off flavors could be yeast related. Can you tell us about your process with things related to yeast. What yeast are you using? If liquid, are you using starters? What is your process with starters? If dry, how are you pitching it? What temperature are you pitching at? What temperature are you fermenting at? Are you controlling the fermentation temperature? If so, how? How long are you fermenting? Are you doing secondaries? What type of vessels are you fermenting in? Are you bottle conditioning? What temperatures are you storing your beers at?

I use Wyeast 1065 1272, and Whites 001. I have used starters when OG is above 1060. I do not have a stir plate so I shake the starter often. I have had the same off flavors and no hoppiness with and without a starter. I pitch the yeast when I reach my fermentation temp. I start my fermentation out 67-68* and end at 69-70*. I use a Hobby Bev. plastic Mini-Brew conical with a home made water jacket that allows me to control my temps with an aquarium heater in the winter months. I don't brew much in the warmer months because I don't have a cooling system, just my heated system for the winter. I do not secondary because I can dump my yeast from the conical around the time I would otherwise rack to a secondary. I then bottle and condition after 3 weeks or so in the conical. I try to keep my bottles in the low to mid 70's to carb up, and then I keep them in the basement until time for the fridge.

My favorite style is an IPA, but have yet to brew one that I feel is great, as I said in my original post they almost all have a somewhat astringent bitterness, and very little if any hop flavor. Since I had read a few posts on steeping, and Chris Colbys artical (BYOB?) where he thinks most home brewers get off flavors from steeping specialty grains, I thought I would try a few tricks in this area for my next batch.

Here (sould be) a link to my recent water report that would have been used in my previous batches http://www.dwsd.org/cust/water_quality_report_09.pdf but as I said I am going to use R.O. or distilled water this time.

 

[jescholler]

Your yeast practices sound very good. I wouldn't expect anything off from that.

Do you do anything to filter out the chlorine from your water?

It could also be a hop derived astringency. What types of hops have you been using, and how long have you boiled them? For example, some people say that cascade as a bittering hop can add a harsh bitterness due to its high cohumulone content.

 

[nasmeyer]

Your yeast practices sound very good. I wouldn't expect anything off from that.

Do you do anything to filter out the chlorine from your water?

It could also be a hop derived astringency. What types of hops have you been using, and how long have you boiled them? For example, some people say that cascade as a bittering hop can add a harsh bitterness due to its high cohumulone content.

I have an kitchen Omni filtering system that filters out many nasties, but not sure about the chlorine. Does my report show an un-brewable level of chlorine?

I have used the hops that come with the kits from either Northern Brewer or Austin HBS, and I follow the hop schedule in the instructions. Many of their IPA's use Cascade, Centenial, or Amarillo for finishing and-or dry hopping, but use a bittering hop for the 60 min boil. I did not mention before that I will use an oxygen tank and stone on my next batch too.

 

[CortexBomb]

How is the hop aroma?

I ask this because a lot of people's flavour perception comes from their sense of smell. If you aren't getting a good hop aroma, you might not get the full IPA effect that you're expecting.

If you're not getting enough aroma, the first thing I'd ask is are you cooling the wort off fast enough to keep the "aroma hops" from turning into "bittering" ones? I had this issue before I started using a wort chiller, the ice bath technique works, but the wort stays too hot for too long and leeches a lot of the aroma out of the hops in my experience.

 

[ThePearsonFam]

Typical RO systems have a carbon filter in-line prior to the membrane to get rid of chlorine/chloramine because they can damage the membrane. Is this like the one you have:

http://www.omni-water-filters.com/ro2000_filter.htm

How long have you had it? Ever changed the carbon filter?

 

[nasmeyer]

Typical RO systems have a carbon filter in-line prior to the membrane to get rid of chlorine/chloramine because they can damage the membrane. Is this like the one you have:

http://www.omni-water-filters.com/ro2000_filter.htm

How long have you had it? Ever changed the carbon filter?

After looking at your photo, I do not have a RO filter. It is a dual filter, one filters odor, sediment, and some other stuff, and the other filters lead. I change them twice a year.

 

[nasmeyer]

How is the hop aroma?

I ask this because a lot of people's flavour perception comes from their sense of smell. If you aren't getting a good hop aroma, you might not get the full IPA effect that you're expecting.

If you're not getting enough aroma, the first thing I'd ask is are you cooling the wort off fast enough to keep the "aroma hops" from turning into "bittering" ones? I had this issue before I started using a wort chiller, the ice bath technique works, but the wort stays too hot for too long and leeches a lot of the aroma out of the hops in my experience.

I don't get much if any hop aroma either. I use a home made chiller, it will chill 2.5 gallons in 7 minutes (during a Michigan winter) I would assume it will be at least double for a 5 gallon batch as I have planned next. Here is a photo of my chiller

 

[joetothemo]

Didn't see anything about Dry Hopping in the OP. That is a sure-fire way to get more hop aroma and perceived bitterness.

 

[nasmeyer]

Didn't see anything about Dry Hopping in the OP. That is a sure-fire way to get more hop aroma and perceived bitterness.

Most of the IPA recipes I have brewed require dry hopping, even those don't give me the expected result.

 

[jescholler]

I have an kitchen Omni filtering system that filters out many nasties, but not sure about the chlorine. Does my report show an un-brewable level of chlorine?

Your report said 0.77ppm. I think that warrants removing it. The most common methods are charcoal filtration and the use of campden. I didn't look at the specs of your filter, so I don't know if it filters chlorine. For this batch, you don't have to worry about chlorine since you're using distilled or RO.