Brewery Plumbing Questions

[Ohio-Ed]

I'm looking for some input / advice / suggestions:

I'm now at the pondering stage of the next piece of my new rig, the plumbing. At this point I'm not to worried about getting fresh water into the process or waste water out. I'm concentrating on movement during the brew process.

Today when I brew, I move hoses from vessel to vessel, hassle with priming, spill wort/water all over and generally make a mess. So my thoughts are to still use hoses, but to have enough that there is little or no swapping during the brew process.

The attached PDF is my "first cut" design.

The system is an all electric single tier with three vessels and two pumps.

Here is what I'm thinking once the HLT is filled and reaches strike Temp;

1. V1 and V5 are opened for Mash-In. (Because the lines are hoses, it should be easy to have previously pre-heated the MT)

2. During MASH, V1, V4 and V2, V6 are open.
(To circulate HLT and Maintain Mash Temp)

3. During Sparge, V1 and V2 are open, V4, V5 and V7 are partially open.
(To circulate HLT AND Fly Sparge)

4. During Boil (last 15 minutes), V3 and V7 are open, then V3 and V8 are opened and CFC output is directed back to BK.
(For sanitizing)

5. At Flameout, V3 and V7 are open.
(pre cooler is intended to start cooling process while whirl-pooling)

6. At Flameout +, V3 and V8 are open to transfer to fermenter.

Any thoughts are welcome.


Thanks,
Ed

View attachment Visio-Plumbing v1.0.pdf

 

[beerthirty]

I'm not sure I understand the precooler. Why recirc back to the boil kettle if you could put the precooler in line with the CFC and perform single pass cooling? A march pump will drain a keggle in under 15 minutes so DMS is not an issue. If its simply for whirlpooling, use a hop bag or SS basket. The trub will settle in the fermentor. When I was using my https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/hell-earth-wort-chiller-73315/ trub blockage was never a concern.
Currently I'm designing a twin plate system that uses the outflow of the secondary plate to feed the primary plate(precooler). I have high ground water temps so the Hell on Earth or my current chiller idea is necessary to allow single pass chilling. I'm guessing you dont have ground water temp issues so you should be able to single pass with a precooler and cfc which would reduce the number of valves you need. Even if you had to supply the precooler and CFC with separate coolant sources instead of running them in serial like I'm planning with the addition of an ice bank.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

I'm not sure I understand the precooler. Why recirc back to the boil kettle if you could put the precooler in line with the CFC and perform single pass cooling? A march pump will drain a keggle in under 15 minutes so DMS is not an issue. If its simply for whirlpooling, use a hop bag or SS basket. The trub will settle in the fermentor. When I was using my https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/hell-earth-wort-chiller-73315/ trub blockage was never a concern.
Currently I'm designing a twin plate system that uses the outflow of the secondary plate to feed the primary plate(precooler). I have high ground water temps so the Hell on Earth or my current chiller idea is necessary to allow single pass chilling. I'm guessing you dont have ground water temp issues so you should be able to single pass with a precooler and cfc which would reduce the number of valves you need. Even if you had to supply the precooler and CFC with separate coolant sources instead of running them in serial like I'm planning with the addition of an ice bank.

Thanks for the feedback.

I'd like to be able to recirculate back to the BK, so I don't think I can really save a valve.

My reasoning for the "Pre-Cooler" is that I already have it. It's a 1/2" coil about 25' long. I usually stick it in a bucket and just let tap water slowly run in the bucket and overfill. It does a pretty good job of knocking the temp down a bit.

I also have a 25', 3/8" CFC but I'm not 100% sure I can go from boil to pitching temp in a single pass if I am pumping. Because of the 3/8" diameter, I think keeping the trub out may be good idea (I have had it clog a couple times). That's why the whirl pooling and taking advantage of the whirlpool time to "pre-cool".

My normal process is to let the pre-cooler run until it's effectiveness drops (usually not real long, and maybe down to about 150) this gets a nice whirlpool going, then a single pass through the CFC and live with what I get.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[beerthirty]

So the main reason is for whirlpooling. Do you use a hop bag? I only ask because many of use let break material settle out in the fermenter. Without a bag I see the need to whirlpool, but with a bag not so much.
You could still do single pass cooling with your precooler(postcooler) and CFC and a bit of ice. I guess it just a matter of how important the boil recirc is to you. I look forward to hearing of your results.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

So the main reason is for whirlpooling. Do you use a hop bag? I only ask because many of use let break material settle out in the fermenter. Without a bag I see the need to whirlpool, but with a bag not so much.
You could still do single pass cooling with your precooler(postcooler) and CFC and a bit of ice. I guess it just a matter of how important the boil recirc is to you. I look forward to hearing of your results.

I do have a hop bag. I have only been whirl pooling for the past few batches and was surprised how much break was left behind. I am in the process of building a new BK and had a coupling welded in specifically for whirl pooling. I don't consider myself an expert which is why I'm open and asking for input... but I don't know if there is a reason not to whirl pool? There is next to no extra effort and if I'm cooling at the same time I don't think its even costing me much time? I'm certainly open and willing to try cooling with and without the pre cooler.

A question on a different part of the drawing; The HLT during sparge... I don't think I have seen anyone use a single pump with two valves to recirc the HLT water and Fly Sparge at the same time? Maybe folks do that and I just missed it... What do you think?

Ed

 

[beerthirty]

I didn't even catch V4. whats its purpose? I dont see a HERMS coil or plumbing so why recirc the HLT, you already have a RIMS heater? You can control flow from the HLT(sparge) with V5. You could also tee the tubes after the RIMS heater and V5 to decrease deadspace. Are you planning on using manual ball valves or solenoid valves? The only reason I'm asking is that zero point solenoid valves are a little sensitive to vacuums being drawn on the output side. Pumps on the output side of the valve can cause them to open partially. Sorry still need more info to wrap my head around this.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

I didn't even catch V4. whats its purpose? I dont see a HERMS coil or plumbing so why recirc the HLT, you already have a RIMS heater? You can control flow from the HLT(sparge) with V5. You could also tee the tubes after the RIMS heater and V5 to decrease deadspace. Are you planning on using manual ball valves or solenoid valves? The only reason I'm asking is that zero point solenoid valves are a little sensitive to vacuums being drawn on the output side. Pumps on the output side of the valve can cause them to open partially. Sorry still need more info to wrap my head around this.

V4 is intended to allow circulation of the HLT water during sparge. I'm planning to recirculate the HLT water to prevent the temperature gradients that happen with electric elements so sparge temps are consistant.

I do have a RIMs heater. I also have a SS coil and thought about mounting it in the HLT just so I can experiment with HERMs vs RIMs.

I am using manual valves.

I really appreciate you taking the time to look at this and offer your input.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[pickles]

My guess is that he's looking to "mix" the HLT for even heat distribution?

 

[beerthirty]

Thanks for explaing this further for me. It will be difficult to adjust three ball valves, to achieve an accurate sparge. Two valves, sparge in and out are hard enough without constant monitoring. Perhaps a stirrer made from an ice cream motor in the HLT to prevent temp gradients?
I run a direct fired RIMS without worrying about temp gradients in the HLT. I normally mash at 148*. I find that although the HLT sparge temp is 180* the mash bed never seems to exceed 165* during sparge even after raising the bed temp to 165* by direct fire. This used to be a big headache for me until I accepted my beer was good and my efficiency was still 78%. I know that I'm not losing the sparge temp in the tubing but would rather suffer a little efficiency then extract tannins.
In your design I would run a stir motor VS pumping as it would accomplish the same thing with less plumbing and energy use(pump power and element power to replace heat lost from the pump and tubing).

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Pickles - You are correct.

Beerthirty - To have a single tier, I have to pump the sparge water. Since I don't need the full capacity of the pump for sparging, I'm just thinking of taking advantage of the excess volume to "stir" the HLT. I'm hoping the valve adjustment will not be any harder that traditional sparging. I'll set V4 to like 50% which should provide enough circulation in the hlt, and still leave plenty of flow for sparging. Then I just have to concentrate on V5 & V7 as normal. I'm thinking as long as I don't try to use 100% of pump 1's flow there shouldn't be a whole lot of adjustment once set.
Today I gravity feed sparge water, and as simple as that is, I still have to tweak the valve as the HLT volume changes and I loose head pressure.

Ed

 

[Poobah58]

I like the idea of V4. You need to recirc the water for initial startup and getting to sparge temp. Why screw around with a stirrer if you already have a pump?
I would get rid of the tube from V5 to the MT. Tee it into the tube between V6 and the RIMS. That way you can use the RIMS if the sparge temp drops AND it flushes the RIMS during sparge.
I would also put the CFC where the Pipe Cooler now is and toss the PC. That way you can cool AND whirlpool.
Also I see no reason for V8 and the piping. How will you sanitize it? When done cooling, simply move the tube (hose) from the BK to the fermenter as it's already sanitized.

 

[beerthirty]

Poobah, the reason I like the stirrer over pumping is less O2 mixed into the HLT water. Since the OP wants to be able to do multiple sized batches, stirring from the bottom will introduce less air then pumping into the top of the kettle. Also a stirrer will use less energy than a pump. If he incorporated the PC and CFC in the same line then sanitation could be done by recircing the last 10 min of the boil, and allow single pass cooling at almost any coolant temp.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Poobah - I like the idea of sparging through the RIMS heater to flush it. It should not need to be used during sparge, the HLT is electric so the spage water temp should not drop.

Beerthirty - The drawing is the logical flow of the fluids... the returns are actually couplings welded into the vessels. The HLT return will be around the 3 gallon point not from the top.

The BK is identical to the HLT, with a return around the 3 gallon point.

The MT input for sparge / recirc is close to the top but adjustable on the inside to direct the return to just above the grain.

Poobah, that's also the reason I can't just move that return line to the fermenter and eliminate V8.

Thanks for the input guys... keep it coming.

Ed

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Poobah, the reason I like the stirrer over pumping is less O2 mixed into the HLT water. Since the OP wants to be able to do multiple sized batches, stirring from the bottom will introduce less air then pumping into the top of the kettle. Also a stirrer will use less energy than a pump. If he incorporated the PC and CFC in the same line then sanitation could be done by recircing the last 10 min of the boil, and allow single pass cooling at almost any coolant temp.

Help me understand how a stir motor will use less energy? The pump has to run for me to be able to sparge, if I used a stir motor it would be additional energy. So, maybe I'm not understanding???

 

[beerthirty]

My thoughts were of continuous duty motors. A pump draws more amps than an ice cream motor. Granted it is a very small amount difference. You designed a single tier which requires 2 pumps. You either run one pump continuously or a stirmotor. Additionally the pump can airlock which causes more wear to a more expensive part of the system, and requires monitoring to prevent it. Pump $110, stirmotor $25. Time to sit during the brew priceless. Airlocking is most prevalent during the mash and sparge temps as the HLT/sparge water is degassing at these temps. Once above 170* the water is degassed with little chance of airlock unless under a vacuum. Unless you boil all water first degassing will occur in the pump(point of maximum vacuum) causing an airlock.

 

[Poobah58]

Poobah, the reason I like the stirrer over pumping is less O2 mixed into the HLT water. Since the OP wants to be able to do multiple sized batches, stirring from the bottom will introduce less air then pumping into the top of the kettle. Also a stirrer will use less energy than a pump. If he incorporated the PC and CFC in the same line then sanitation could be done by recircing the last 10 min of the boil, and allow single pass cooling at almost any coolant temp.

First, how is O2 mixed into the water?
Second, why would it matter?

 

[Poobah58]

Ohio, How do you plan to sanitize V8 and the associated tubing?

 

[GreenMonti]

Hey Ed,

Does your MT have an element in it?

Maybe this has been asked and I missed it, why don't you move the CFC after the PC and move V8 with the T fitting to after the CFC for flow diversion? You would be able to chill at a faster rate and still get the whirlpool effect even if you don't run water through the CFC during the recirc.

 

[GreenMonti]

First, how is O2 mixed into the water?
Second, why would it matter?

I guess surface agitation (splashing creating micro bubbles) along with gas evacuation due to temperature. The wee little bubbles that form during heating of water. I don't really know just a guess.

 

[GreenMonti]

Ohio, How do you plan to sanitize V8 and the associated tubing?

If I read right in the opening post he mentioned running it open during the last little bit of the boil. Sanitizing the CFC and the rest of the piping. Though the diagram doesn't show it returning back to the kettle.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Beerthirty - I apologize for being so dense... but how do I sparge with a stirmotor? In your message you said I either run a pump continuously OR I run a stirmotor. Forgetting for a moment about circulating the HLT... I think the pump has to run continuously in a single tier to sparge. I am currently gravity feeding to sparge, so maybe I'm missing something???

Poobah - The output of the CFC is a hose, not connected to a coupling in the vessel, so as GreenMonti said, I will circulate through it back to the BK for a few minutes during the boil to sanitize.

GreenMonti - The MT does not have an element, it relies on the RIM's heater to maintain mash temp. The cfc I have is 3/8" copper... It has clogged before so I was going to avoid circulating as much break material through it as possible. Also, because of the diameter, it really restricts the flow.

Thanks for taking the time to help me work through this guys... I appreciate it.

Ed

 

[beerthirty]

Ed no apologies. I was quite drunk last night and wasn't making a lot of sense. I was thinking you were running the pump during the HLT warmup stage. Running the water through the hose and pump seemed unnecessary until you reached sparge temps. I am a little curious how much heat you will lose during sparge because of the hlt recirc. If it would be enough to have to heat the HLT during sparge. I think your system will work. You will probably only brew on it a few times before you decide to change something. We DIYers are notorious for that.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Ed no apologies. I was quite drunk last night and wasn't making a lot of sense. I was thinking you were running the pump during the HLT warmup stage. Running the water through the hose and pump seemed unnecessary until you reached sparge temps. I am a little curious how much heat you will lose during sparge because of the hlt recirc. If it would be enough to have to heat the HLT during sparge. I think your system will work. You will probably only brew on it a few times before you decide to change something. We DIYers are notorious for that.

No worries about being drunk. I'm actually a card carrying member and certified interpreter for the Drunkards of America Society.

Ahhh... I see. I could run a stirmotor during initial heating of the HLT to avoid running the pump the whole time. After thinking along that line, I may start the pump to recirc the HLT during that last bit of heating the HLT and through the sparge.

Heat loss shouldn't be a problem... the HLT has a 5500 watt BCS-460 controlled element for heating and maintaining strike and sparge water.

There is no doubt there will be changes... I think the DIY aspect is a large reason I brew.

Ed

 

[Ohio-Ed]

A bit more info...

I have tried to make all the equipment I have as modular / interchangeable as possible. Think of Lego blocks... I have tried to make things so they are reconfigurable by just snapping them together.

That's why I haven't gotten to twisted up on the placement of the "pre-cooler" and CFC. They both have QD's and I can easily put them in series, remove them, or move them to another position.

The real thing I was looking for is to kinda validate the pump plumping...
My plan is to build two separate modules, one for each pump.

Module 1 (Pump 1), will have a single QD input (I may make it a tee and plug one leg), and 2 valves on the output with QD's.

Module 2 (Pump 2), will have a tee on the input with 2 QD's, and 3 valves on the output, each with a QD. The third valve is probably a luxury, but adds quite a bit of flexibility I think.

Then, with enough hoses, I can connect the whole process and just turn valves, without spilling a drop through the entire brew process. If I want to change things up, I have tons of flexibility.

Based on some of your input, I have attached an updated drawing...

Let me know what you think.

Ed

View attachment Visio-Plumbing v1.1.pdf

 

[samc]

Nice work, my one question would be how do you keep leftover unboiled wort from entering the flow into the fermenter? That is the liquid from V6 run to V8 ? I am a hose swapper so this may be obvious and I am just missing it.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Nice work, my one question would be how do you keep leftover unboiled wort from entering the flow into the fermenter? That is the liquid from V6 run to V8 ? I am a hose swapper so this may be obvious and I am just missing it.

The distance between the three valves V6,V7 & V8 is just inches... they will be mounted on SS Tees with short nipples between them. So, I don't think there will be much left over. And whats left should be flushed by the circulating to sanitize the chiller.

Ed

 

[pickles]

Will you be able to sanitize from V8 to fermenter?

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Will you be able to sanitize from V8 to fermenter?

I'm picturing that connection as just a hose. Maybe with a hook to hang it on the fermenter maybe not (the hoses will ALL have QDs on each end so an adapter would be very simple).
So should be able to sanitize the hose with a soak in Starsan and then recirc back to the BK to sanitize the valve.

Ed

 

[pickles]

Gotcha. Everything else looks good to me.

 

[CodeRage]

Hey ed,
I'm a little weary of having the intake side of the pumps being valved. Then again, the only solution to that would be 3 pumps I suppose.

With that said, I don't think V1 is really necessary for 3 reasons.
One, you're not having to pull from multiple kettles.
Two, You are going to be running the return side back into the HLT to eliminate stratification while the element is on anyways.
Three, kind of goes along the lines of two, you will have to prime the pump beforehand so the line is going to be charged already.

You would be surprised how fast the CFC will chill. I get about 1 gpm from 212 to 65 in one pass, it does require ice water. It's also about the max speed you can run the CFC so it is really going to choke down the momentum of a whirl pool.

This is what I would propose. T off V7 between the prechiller and CFC directed back into the BK.
Put V8 between the T for V7 and the CFC, then plumb the CFC straight into the fermenter. (If you look at my Integrated CFC thread I did something similar)

So when recirculating V7 will be open and V8 will be closed.
Final Chill will happen by closing V7 and opening V8, going straight through the CFC to the Fermenter.

Now remember that valve you saved from not using V1? Put it on the output side of the HLT in parallel with V5 and V4, and run it to the jacket of the CFC. Fill the HLT with ice water (or if you are really lucky to have cold ground water) and pump it through the CFC jacket. Then have the waste water from CFC dump into the MLT, instant HOT cleaning water. (Honestly I don;t think the prechiller is necessary if you use ice. but the whirl pool option IS nice.)

Last note, you may want to put some kind of master needle or ball valve on the output of the pumps. This way if you switch to solenoids for automatic valving, you can still control flow rates.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Hey ed,
I'm a little weary of having the intake side of the pumps being valved. Then again, the only solution to that would be 3 pumps I suppose.

With that said, I don't think V1 is really necessary for 3 reasons.
One, you're not having to pull from multiple kettles.
Two, You are going to be running the return side back into the HLT to eliminate stratification while the element is on anyways.
Three, kind of goes along the lines of two, you will have to prime the pump beforehand so the line is going to be charged already.

V1, V2, & V3 are the kettle valves... they will be full open when the particular kettle is being pumped from.

You would be surprised how fast the CFC will chill. I get about 1 gpm from 212 to 65 in one pass, it does require ice water. It's also about the max speed you can run the CFC so it is really going to choke down the momentum of a whirl pool.

This is what I would propose. T off V7 between the prechiller and CFC directed back into the BK.
Put V8 between the T for V7 and the CFC, then plumb the CFC straight into the fermenter. (If you look at my Integrated CFC thread I did something similar)

So when recirculating V7 will be open and V8 will be closed.
Final Chill will happen by closing V7 and opening V8, going straight through the CFC to the Fermenter.

This is pretty much how I had it in the original drawing (you can see it in the original post). My CFC is 3/8" tubing so it does restrict flow quite a bit. It chills pretty well but I don't trust it to get to pitching temp in one pass. Thoughts are; run the "pre-cooler" for a few minutes while whirlpooling (probably knock 50f off), then through the CFC for a final, single pass into the fermentor. Really the whole point of this it to have fexibility... I can re-position almost anything with the muliple hoses and multi-input/output pumps.

Now remember that valve you saved from not using V1? Put it on the output side of the HLT in parallel with V5 and V4, and run it to the jacket of the CFC. Fill the HLT with ice water (or if you are really lucky to have cold ground water) and pump it through the CFC jacket. Then have the waste water from CFC dump into the MLT, instant HOT cleaning water. (Honestly I don;t think the prechiller is necessary if you use ice. but the whirl pool option IS nice.)

Last note, you may want to put some kind of master needle or ball valve on the output of the pumps. This way if you switch to solenoids for automatic valving, you can still control flow rates.

I'll think about circulating ice water through the cfc but I've had major problems with bad off tastes from hoses so I'm leery about running that water through the pumps & "beer" hoses.

At this point, I think I'm going to hold off on solenoids... that may come in version 2.0. Gotta have something to be planning, right?

Thanks for taking the time to take a look and give feedback.

Ed

 

[CodeRage]

V1, V2, & V3 are the kettle valves... they will be full open when the particular kettle is being pumped from.

Yeah I see what you are saying, V2 and V3 ARE needed to switch between the HLT and BK kettle going to the second pump. V1 how ever is not needed except to block flow to the pump, since you are not sharing a kettle on the HLT pump it has no purpose. Unless you want to be able to service the HLT pump with the kettle full of water. See what I mean? Now if you want it there for aesthetics, then I understand.

This is pretty much how I had it in the original drawing (you can see it in the original post). My CFC is 3/8" tubing so it does restrict flow quite a bit. It chills pretty well but I don't trust it to get to pitching temp in one pass. Thoughts are; run the "pre-cooler" for a few minutes while whirlpooling (probably knock 50f off), then through the CFC for a final, single pass into the fermentor. Really the whole point of this it to have fexibility... I can re-position almost anything with the muliple hoses and multi-input/output pumps.

What I proposed regarding this would run the wort through the prechiller and then the CFC on the final pass to the fermenter. It does affect the flexibility though.

I'll think about circulating ice water through the cfc but I've had major problems with bad off tastes from hoses so I'm leery about running that water through the pumps & "beer" hoses.

At this point, I think I'm going to hold off on solenoids... that may come in version 2.0. Gotta have something to be planning, right?

Thanks for taking the time to take a look and give feedback.

Ed

I ran a couple of batches of boiling water through my jacket hoping to pull out any volatiles. Don't know if it worked yet

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Yeah I see what you are saying, V2 and V3 ARE needed to switch between the HLT and BK kettle going to the second pump. V1 how ever is not needed except to block flow to the pump, since you are not sharing a kettle on the HLT pump it has no purpose. Unless you want to be able to service the HLT pump with the kettle full of water. See what I mean? Now if you want it there for aesthetics, then I understand.

What I proposed regarding this would run the wort through the prechiller and then the CFC on the final pass to the fermenter. It does affect the flexibility though.

I ran a couple of batches of boiling water through my jacket hoping to pull out any volatiles. Don't know if it worked yet

Well.. I guess it never occurred to me to have a keggle without a valve on the bottom of it???

It will be easy enough to re-configure the chillers so I can test a variety of combinations.

Good luck with the hose. I had problems with RV hoses, so I'm very reluctant. But I can probably find another way to circulate ice water for chilling.

Ed

 

[CodeRage]

Right on brother. Really looking forward to seeing the final product!