Brewer's Friend Water Chem Calculator--I'm missing something

[jack13]

Hi All,

I'm trying to use Brewer's Friend's Water Chemistry Calculator (https://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/) to build Burton Upon Trent water. The calculator asks for the inital profile of the water (I use RO, so I just left all zeros for the minerals). You then select the desired profile (Burton on Trent was an option!), and it automatically fills in the amounts and displays the differences between your existing water and the desired water. EX: my RO water has 0 ppm Ca+ (I guess), and B-o-T has 270, hence I'm under by 270ppm.

The point then is to start entering amounts of brewing salts (chalk, gypsum, etc.) until the discrepancies are all within 20ppm.

My question is this: Is there a way to determine all the additions needed without doing trial and error like this? If the calculator 'knows' the solution, why doesn't it just tell me? Or are there so many "paths" to create a given profile that it CAN'T just tell me? I feel like I could spend all day trying different things and never get the right combination of salts to get me to the right profile. (Of course it wouldn't be trial and error if I was knowledable about water chemistry, but I'm not, so it is).

Related question: Is there another real simple calculator like this, but that allows me to specify which salts I have? I'm willing to purchase whatever, but I'd be curious to see how close I could get to a given desired profile with only what I have available (right now baking soda, gypsum, and CaCl).

 

[jdauria]

As far as I know, most brewing water software/spreadsheets, it's just plugging in salts to you get close to the water profile you want and your pH falls into the right range. Saying that...Beersmith does have a water profile tool that does what you are looking for, and then it allows you to save the profile and load the water profile into recipe and then will give you a est pH once it's added to recipe.

Beersmith lists Burton profile as:

Ca 295
Mg 45
Na 55
SO4 725
Cl 25
HCO 300

So using 5 gallons of RO water, it tells me that I would need the following additions to get to Burton profile:

Gypsum 16.9 grams
Epsom 10.8 grams
Calcium Chloride 0.7 grams
Baking Soda 4.1 grams
Chalk 4.0 grams

That gives a final profile that is close:
Ca 302
Mg 56
Na 67
SO4 722
Cl 21
HCO 291

Hope that helps you!

 

[jack13]

As far as I know, most brewing water software/spreadsheets, it's just plugging in salts to you get close to the water profile you want and your pH falls into the right range. Saying that...Beersmith does have a water profile tool that does what you are looking for, and then it allows you to save the profile and load the water profile into recipe and then will give you a est pH once it's added to recipe.

Beersmith lists Burton profile as:

Ca 295
Mg 45
Na 55
SO4 725
Cl 25
HCO 300

So using 5 gallons of RO water, it tells me that I would need the following additions to get to Burton profile:

Gypsum 16.9 grams
Epsom 10.8 grams
Calcium Chloride 0.7 grams
Baking Soda 4.1 grams
Chalk 4.0 grams

That gives a final profile that is close:
Ca 302
Mg 56
Na 67
SO4 722
Cl 21
HCO 291

Hope that helps you!

Yes, it most certainly does. Thanks!

 

[jdauria]

Glad I could help!

 

[Big Monk]

You DO NOT want to brew with water like that. Start with Brunwaters Pale Ale profile and go from there.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Listen to RPIScotty! The breweries in the region of Burton On Trent assuredly modify their water, and likely substantially. They are not brewing with water that looks like what you are trying to mimic.

 

[jack13]

Listen to RPIScotty! The breweries in the region of Burton On Trent assuredly modify their water, and likely substantially. They are not brewing with water that looks like what you are trying to mimic.

It's not that I'm trying to mimic Burton on Trent water per se. Rather, I'm trying to follow a recipe as closely as possible (one from Homebrewers Associate that someone won an award with).

This recipe calls for "half the mineral content of b o t." So even if the profile that people have come to call b o t water isn't really what's used in brewing there, it seems I should still create water using that profile in order to follow the recipe.

Am I making any sense at all?

And I should point out the recipe is for a Green Flash West Coast IPA clone. I should also point out my goal is also not to get it as close to that beer as possible, but just to make something similar. So with that in mind does anyone think I should use a water profile different from what the recipe says?

 

[Yooper]

It's not that I'm trying to mimic Burton on Trent water per se. Rather, I'm trying to follow a recipe as closely as possible (one from Homebrewers Associate that someone won an award with).

This recipe calls for "half the mineral content of b o t." So even if the profile that people have come to call b o t water isn't really what's used in brewing there, it seems I should still create water using that profile in order to follow the recipe.

Am I making any sense at all?

And I should point out the recipe is for a Green Flash West Coast IPA clone. I should also point out my goal is also not to get it as close to that beer as possible, but just to make something similar. So with that in mind does anyone think I should use a water profile different from what the recipe says?

Yes, because Burton on Trent water is impossible for you. First, you never want to use chalk, as it doesn't dissolve in water without extraneous measures. Also, with such a high HCO3 level, your mash pH will be way too high.

You can certainly increase the sulfate to 300 ppm with calcium sulfate (gypsum) for a west coast IPA, but you'd have to add acid to reduce all of that bicarbonate to get a decent mash pH so you'd be adding alkalinity to turn around and add acid.

So, add gyspsum to get 300 ppm of sulfate, and target a mash pH of 5.4, and you'd be golden. Ditch the baking soda and and chalk for sure, and consider getting rid of the calcium chloride and epsom salt, as the magnesium is doing nothing for you there.

 

[Lefou]

Adding chalk is PITB. It's hard to dissolve unless your water pH is below 7.

Baking soda in RO water will increase your water pH by itself, but the only time you might want to add it is when you're doing a dark ale, porter, or stout. Dark grains add acidity and will balance things out.
I use Brewer's Friend and wouldn't consider using the BoT water profile as anything more than a reference. If I brew a porter or stout, I'll only add as much mineral content as it takes to get those little green stars on the Overall Water Report section while keeping my mash pH in the right range.
So far, I'm only doing light SRM ales with a minimum of CaCl2 in Poland Spring water and that is good enough to get a great beer - IMO, anyway.

 

[jack13]

Yes, because Burton on Trent water is impossible for you. First, you never want to use chalk, as it doesn't dissolve in water without extraneous measures. Also, with such a high HCO3 level, your mash pH will be way too high.

You can certainly increase the sulfate to 300 ppm with calcium sulfate (gypsum) for a west coast IPA, but you'd have to add acid to reduce all of that bicarbonate to get a decent mash pH so you'd be adding alkalinity to turn around and add acid.

So, add gyspsum to get 300 ppm of sulfate, and target a mash pH of 5.4, and you'd be golden. Ditch the baking soda and and chalk for sure, and consider getting rid of the calcium chloride and epsom salt, as the magnesium is doing nothing for you there.

I'll be brewing this on friday, and will add gypsum as per these recommendations. Thanks.