Brew the same or something different?

[devilssoninlaw]

As a newby, I had really good luck with my first 2 batches of beer, an IPA and a Brown Ale. The Brown Ale turned out great and after looking to purchase my next batch, I decided to go with the Brown Ale extract kit again.

Do most people try something different (I usually do when buying 6 packs), or stick with the same beer after having success? I know..... there's always the next time!!

 

[IslandLizard]

Nothing wrong with selecting a Brown Ale again! Especially when you liked the previous one.

Now I started tweaking recipes after the first (and only) kit, a Yellow Dog Pale Ale that was OK, but kinda meh. It definitely needed more hops...

 

[thehaze]

I have never brewed the same beer twice, as it would defeat the purpose of why I'm doing it, but you can brew the same over and over again, if the beer turns great every time.

I often thought of rebrewing some of the beers that turned out very good, but when there are so many combinations of yeast, hops and malts + adjuncts, I just want to brew new beers every time.

 

[Dirty25]

The best brewer I know makes his house recipe every 3 or 4th batch. You have to play around with new stuff but also dialing in recipes is critical.

 

[bovine_OB]

being able to brew anything in the world but choosing to brew the same recipe time and time again is like having the power to build anything you can dream up - but deciding to remodel the bathroom instead.

Seriously though, I've only repeated a batch one time (1) because my BMC friends will drink it, and (2) it wasn't truly the same recipe, only real similar. I couldn't force myself to not tweak it just a little.

 

[PADave]

I like to try new brews, but now after about 50, I'm starting to come up with a list of repeat brews. Going to have my regulars, but still try something new every now and then. You'll know that your process is solid if you can brew the same beer multiple times and have it come out the same every time. With extract that should be pretty easy, AG takes a little more practice.

 

[kh54s10]

101 batches so far and no two exactly the same. I have done a couple several times that were similar but with slight alterations. Sometimes an alteration is better, sometimes just different, sometimes not as good. But my alterations have never resulted in a bad beer.

IMO, there are too many different beers to make to brew the same one at all. Maybe if you get one that you really like I would do it once in every 5-10 batches. So maybe once or twice a year.

 

[mongoose33]

I've never understood the idea of never brewing the same thing twice; I don't know how one could ever improve that way. But maybe that's not the goal for such people.

Sometimes I think that those who never repeat a recipe are on a search for the holy grail; rather than refine their process and recipe to maybe find it, they keep searching here, there, everywhere.

Anyway, much of this depends on what your goals are. Is your goal to improve as a brewer? I don't know how you could do that if you didn't repeat recipes trying to improve the process. Is your goal to always have something different? I don't get that, but I suppose it's as legit a goal as any other--after all, you get to choose what makes you happy.

I've followed a process of continuous quality improvement as I've gone from a newbie to a brewer of some really good beer (not my evaluation, others'). It's simply this: every time you brew, try to do at least one thing better than last time. Control temps better, control fermentation better, make a better starter or rehydrate your yeast if dry, time your hop additions more accurately, bottle the beer better, do whatever.

So my suggestion is to be as honest as you can be about the two beers you've just brewed. Ask someone who will be brutally honest to assess them, and then try to discern where you can improve them. I make pretty good beer, maybe even excellent beer, but I'm always trying to make it better. Always.

Think about where you want to be with your brewing in six months, a year. If you want to be producing beer your friends want seconds and thirds on, that is celebrated, then work to refine what you do. If you want to make it impossible to isolate variables that affect the beer, brew a different recipe every time.

I'm with IslandLizard: brew the brown ale again.

Good luck, enjoy, and you do get to decide what your goals are--even if they're not the same as mine.

 

[boxboybrewing]

I'm pretty new myself. I'm on my 8th batch of all grain brew. I'm still exploring different beers, and so far haven't met a beer I didn't like! But, yeah, at some point I'll refine the process and brew one of the successful ones again, BUT BETTER!

 

[Kickass]

Kudos on the polarizing question. In 10yrs of brewing I have almost never repeated a beer. I rotate through 3 or 4 styles frequently but Very rarely use the same recipe or process. I believe you can dial in your skills as a brewer without repeating the same recipe.

Brew something new! And exciting, and a little different. Then report back.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

being able to brew anything in the world but choosing to brew the same recipe time and time again is like having the power to build anything you can dream up - but deciding to remodel the bathroom instead.

Look at it another way - if you had to have a brain tumour removed, would you rather it was done by a full-time brain surgeon or someone who spent half his time as a lumberjack "because it's all cutting things up and I'd get bored just doing brain surgery"?

Now, who will make a better beer, someone who hones his craft doing one thing, or someone who skates from style to style?

Some of it will just depend on why you brew - are you just trying to get a range of something drinkable on the table, or are you interested in honing your "craft" for want of a better word?

I think there's definitely something to be said for doing a couple of repeats of the "same" beer from a process POV when you're learning - but that doesn't mean an identical one. I'm kinda lucky that I grew up on commercial beer that was essentially a SMaSH, which means I'm quite happy to drink lots of SMaSH, which are great for testing different hops and yeast. So all the "process" is essentially identical - I'm weighing out the same amount of grist in the same volume of water etc, which means I've been able to nail down all the variables like boil-off rates and water absorption by grain. So the "process" stuff is the same, but I'm getting different beers out of it by using different hops and yeast, which satisfies my need for novelty.

The need for repetition is more of a factor with all-grain rather than extract, just because there's a lot more "process" involved in all-grain, so you don't need so many repeats for extract. But it's something to bear in mind.

 

[Nemanach]

Making the same beer multiple times with small changes to improve it helps you become a better brewer. I like making new stuff but there are beers I’ve made multiple times because I enjoy them and I keep making small changes to dial it in.

 

[GPP33]

This is why I just bought another keezer. I have a few repeats (discounting super minor adjustments such as water profile tweaks or a late hop change) that get brewed on a regular basis (at least during the right season) but I still like to experiment. I always like to have an IPA, Kolsch and Stout on tap and I have fine tuned recipes for each. During the warmer months I have a great wheat that I like to have on tap. The other spaces are used for experiments, one of which I like to keep going is something big and complex, they are never the same, I’m currently researching barley wines that can age until the 2019 holiday season.

It’s also worth noting that my regulars don’t stay regulars for long. As my pallet changes my recipes will change. The IPA I brew today is nothing like the IPAs I drank years ago. I used to not enjoy Kolschs, wheats or dark beers, I can’t tell you the last time I drank an amber and at one time Fat Tire was all I bought. I guess what I’m saying is if you really enjoy it brew it again but don’t only brew one beer as there’s a whole world of flavors out there.

 

[Clef051]

im going to guess everyone has their own way. Mine usually change each batch. It might be small changes. I have a few that I rebrew that i may adjust a little depending on what I have on hand. A few different Ipa malt bills that a change hops on. also yeast may end up changing if it is something with a fairly similar profile.

 

[devilssoninlaw]

Thanks for the input, gents!! I guess as a newby, I wanted to keep a supply of something that worked out well but as a beer lover I'm always willing to try some other styles and I'm certainly going to do that.
I seldom purchase the same beer each time and as my confidence grows so will my willingness to take bigger leaps and try different recipies and accept the outcome.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Another factor to consider, at least once you get away from kits, is that there's nothing magic about 5 gallons. I tend to brew 13 or 17 litre batches, and split them into 3 or 4x1 gallon buckets for different yeast or dry hop treatments.

Also, homebrewers still buy quite a lot of beer, because they're looking for ideas and to benchmark against the classics. At least a third of the beer I drink is bought in, so I drink my SMaSHes when I "just want a beer" but my purchasing is now even more frantically varied than before. And to be honest while I like the variety of some dark or European styles, I don't really want to have to try to get through 40 bottles of them.

Also buying beer means that you've got a good supply of bottles to replace breakages and giveaways, as well as meaning that your brewing is less likely to be constrained by bottle shortages (if you're going the bottling route) - it was a bit of a factor when I only had 40 or so bottles to start with, having over 100 gives much more flexibility.

 

[Jtk78]

Best part about this hobby, beside the beer, is there is no wrong answer to this question. Brew what ever you want and enjoy.

I've brewed about 30 batches. Contrary to Northern Brewer, I buy very little beer. If I pick a style to choose I've never had before, I may get a a few in a "make your own 6 pack" to compare to mine. Brewing has allowed me to enjoy so many different styles I probably would not have tried if it not for this hobby. Like IslandLizard, I only did one kit when I started. That said, there is one recipe I've brewed 3 different times with minor tweaks.

To me, THE KEY is taking exceptional notes. Recipe notes, notes during the brew day, notes on fermentation, notes at packaging, and notes on tasting. This way you can improve upon a recipe, be it the next batch or a year from now. If you decide to brew the same beer again, read the notes as the first step of planning the beer out. How you organize your notes is up to you. Some use a notebook, others make a sheet in Word or Excel, I use BeerSmith. How doesn't matter, it's the having of quality notes that does.

 

[Dland]

Taking notes in a "brew log" is a good idea, as well as tasting notes. I like to dial in a style or recipe, then make changes in ABV, IBU, grain ratios, or hop varieties. I have even repeated successful brews where the only variable from previous batch is brand of base malt. Especially good to note any changes in process, like when one change a piece of equipment (like a better grain mill) or process, (like starting spunding), and see if flavor or efficiency changes. Your not going to remember whether a batch you finished last year was worth repeating unless you write it down (or enter into your brewing program, if you're more digital).

Of course it is fun and educational to try different styles, but if one can't repeat a successful brew one likes, than that suggests the success was partly due to chance. As someone who drinks a lot of beer, and seldom buys it, I'm also not going to brew any style I don't want to drink 10 gallons of.

Anyway, happy brewing, am trying to decide whether to brew today, out in the predicted thunderstorms. If I do, it will be a first crack at an ale using an English malt I've never tried before.

 

[whovous]

I brew the same thing, only different.

 

[z-bob]

I used to brew something wildly different each time. My beers really improved when I spent a year brewing minor variations on the same recipe every time. I'm kind of in-between now.

 

[kh54s10]

I don't understand why some people think that you have to brew the same thing multiple times to get better. I started with 4 extracts. My second batch I still rate in the top 10 of all the beers I have made. I then brewed 4 partial mash recipes while collecting equipment for my 3 vessel gravity rig. I have brewed similar recipes multiple times but each of those had small alterations. Successive ones with small changes were sometimes better and sometimes worse. I did learn from that without having to brew the exact same recipe.

On the recipes that are not an alteration of an earlier one. I take what I have learned and design a beer that I think I will like. Sometimes I get great results and some are so-so. Only 3 batches were bad. One an extreme high gravity beer that ended up way too sweet. One a neglected batch that got dumped when I moved, didn't take time to bottle it. And one, another experiment where beer stayed pea soup green after a month and a half. I didn't even taste it to see if it was drinkable. These 3 spanned the course of several years.

I go by what my friends say and what they ask. They say my beers are very good. Then they ASK for more....

So, I may not be the best brewer out there. That is not my goal. I enjoy brewing. I enjoy experimenting. That means that I don't really want to limit myself by getting into brewing the same beer over and over.

 

[kh54s10]

Another factor to consider, at least once you get away from kits, is that there's nothing magic about 5 gallons. I tend to brew 13 or 17 litre batches, and split them into 3 or 4x1 gallon buckets for different yeast or dry hop treatments.

Also, homebrewers still buy quite a lot of beer, because they're looking for ideas and to benchmark against the classics. At least a third of the beer I drink is bought in, so I drink my SMaSHes when I "just want a beer" but my purchasing is now even more frantically varied than before. And to be honest while I like the variety of some dark or European styles, I don't really want to have to try to get through 40 bottles of them.

Also buying beer means that you've got a good supply of bottles to replace breakages and giveaways, as well as meaning that your brewing is less likely to be constrained by bottle shortages (if you're going the bottling route) - it was a bit of a factor when I only had 40 or so bottles to start with, having over 100 gives much more flexibility.

Splitting a batch is a great idea that I have not yet done. I have made some small experimental batches.

When at the height of my brewing I bought almost no commercial beers. Then when I slowed down a little I bought more to try styles before brewing them. I then went through a move and did very little brewing for about a year. During that time I bought most of my beer.

At the height of my brewing I had over 700 bottles, And 12 batches bottled at one time with somewhere between 6 and 50 bottles of each.

When I moved I ended up recycling 12 cases of Sam Adams bottles, and kept bottles without embossed logos.

I do lose some bottles to give away's but have only broken one bottle that I dropped on the garage floor.
Now to get my stuff out of storage and get my kegerator back up.

 

[catdaddy66]

The best brewer I know makes his house recipe every 3 or 4th batch. You have to play around with new stuff but also dialing in recipes is critical.

This is exactly what I like to do. Try new things for 2-3 beers in a row and then go back to a favorite recipe/style. I have 5 beers that I have brewed a half dozen times, minimum. Then there are beers that I have done only once or twice. I have some that I can't seem to get quite right like my brown ales which have been all over the map, though the last 2 have been much better.

I haven't seen him on HBT recently but a member posted his love for the Moose Drool clone (sold by Northern Brewer and is an American brown ale) called Caribou Slobber, and it was all he had ever brewed because it was so delicious.

 

[kh54s10]

The best brewer I know makes his house recipe every 3 or 4th batch. You have to play around with new stuff but also dialing in recipes is critical.

This is exactly what I like to do. Try new things for 2-3 beers in a row and then go back to a favorite recipe/style. I have 5 beers that I have brewed a half dozen times, minimum. Then there are beers that I have done only once or twice. I have some that I can't seem to get quite right like my brown ales which have been all over the map, though the last 2 have been much better.

I haven't seen him on HBT recently but a member posted his love for the Moose Drool clone (sold by Northern Brewer and is an American brown ale) called Caribou Slobber, and it was all he had ever brewed because it was so delicious.

I disagree. See post #21 Knowledge is critical. Getting that knowledge by brewing the same thing multiple times is not critical.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

If I was a baker and was unable to bake cookies the same way every time I wouldn't be much of a baker. I'm all for trying new recipes and tweaking to old ones, but being able to repeat a recipe time after time shows you have some command over the process.

 

[kh54s10]

If I was a baker and was unable to bake cookies the same way every time I wouldn't be much of a baker. I'm all for trying new recipes and tweaking to old ones, but being able to repeat a recipe time after time shows you have some command over the process.

I don't know if I can brew the same beer the same every time because I have never tried. I have brewed a couple with a basic recipe as a base several times. But, I have always changed something either to try to make it better, or because I didn't have an ingredient hence an addition or a substitution.

But, is a baker who bakes great cookies every time, but never bakes the same cookies more than once, a bad baker?

 

[El Nino]

I stuck with the same recipe for the first few brews. It was interesting to see how my beer improved with more experience (basically going from 58%, 63%, then 75% efficiency). After that, I felt more comfortable / confident with the process and started brewing other types of recipes. Just recently I started making up recipes (frankenbrews, i call em ).

Do with what you feel comfortable with in the beginning, but probably later on in your journey, you'll want to branch out and try different recipes. Personally I do like having a pipeline of brews that have a bit of variety to em. In my case it's usually a combo of ales / IPA's.

 

[aprichman]

"Dialing in" a recipe may help you design a beer that you like but it has absolutely nothing to do with being a good brewer or improving your process.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

I don't know if I can brew the same beer the same every time because I have never tried. I have brewed a couple with a basic recipe as a base several times. But, I have always changed something either to try to make it better, or because I didn't have an ingredient hence an addition or a substitution.

But, is a baker who bakes great cookies every time, but never bakes the same cookies more than once, a bad baker?

The question is not if they do, it's if they can. Choice over ability. If a baker can't repeat a recipe, but still comes out great, they are not great, they're lucky.

I've read several of your posts and am confident that you would be able to repeat the final product of a beer. A new brewer, on the other hand I would not be so sure. If they do, I would chalk it up to luck.

 

[danielthemaniel]

I like experiment a lot when brewing so most beers are different. However, I have a beer for each season that I repeat annually and tweak to get it better. They are my seasonal house beer and the rest is either new beers or repeat styles with different ingredients that use my knowledge gained from the results of the past brews within that style. There is no right or wrong to whether to repeat or not. There is only your preference!

 

[mongoose33]

"Dialing in" a recipe may help you design a beer that you like but it has absolutely nothing to do with being a good brewer or improving your process.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this. Unless you can control most if not all variables and allow just some to vary, you're likely to have a very difficult time developing a better process. If you change the formula every time, how do you tell whether the process or the recipe is responsible for a bad beer? Answer: you cannot.

I will allow that it's theoretically possible to develop as a brewer without ever repeating a recipe, but IMO, it's not the way to bet, and it's not the best way for new brewers to develop their skills at the outset.

 

[sillbeer]

I'm with Mongoose on this. You can learn a lot from dialing in a recipe or process and see what the results are. You can't do that if you change to a new recipe every time.

For me, dialing in my equipment was the best thing I've done. Having the same results each time has been key. If the equipment is inconsistent then the results will be inconsistent.

 

[kh54s10]

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this. Unless you can control most if not all variables and allow just some to vary, you're likely to have a very difficult time developing a better process. If you change the formula every time, how do you tell whether the process or the recipe is responsible for a bad beer? Answer: you cannot.

I will allow that it's theoretically possible to develop as a brewer without ever repeating a recipe, but IMO, it's not the way to bet, and it's not the best way for new brewers to develop their skills at the outset.

OK, I do disagree. I control most if not all the variables without brewing the same thing, exactly, twice. How do I tell if it is the process or the recipe responsible for a bad beer? That is simple it is the recipe since my only 3 bad beers were all extreme recipes. Never said it was the best way. Only saying that repeating recipes is not at all necessary for advancing your brewing skills.

 

[corax]

At the beginning of this thread I thought I was going to be squarely in the "repetition is good" camp. There's nothing better than a recipe you've tweaked to meet your tastes perfectly, and there's nothing wrong with repeating that again and again. But I think some of the partisans are overstating the case.

For the most critical (IMO) steps, mastering the process is key: what needs to be repeated time and again is the set of processes for the given equipment. Ingredients should be interchangeable -- for example, if you know the potential extract of your grains, you can substitute different grains, and as long as you've mastered your process, you should hit your predicted efficiency numbers.

Furthermore, mastery requires (again, IMO) knowing the different effects of different ingredients. How are you ever going to learn that without trying a bunch of different ones?

 

[aprichman]

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this. Unless you can control most if not all variables and allow just some to vary, you're likely to have a very difficult time developing a better process. If you change the formula every time, how do you tell whether the process or the recipe is responsible for a bad beer? Answer: you cannot.

I will allow that it's theoretically possible to develop as a brewer without ever repeating a recipe, but IMO, it's not the way to bet, and it's not the best way for new brewers to develop their skills at the outset.

I'm not sure what you're trying to "dial in" in your process. The practices required to make good beer aren't exclusive to a recipe. If anything limiting yourself to a particular set of recipes may make finding a bad practice more difficult.

 

[Sadu]

There is general-purpose brewing skill, which you can develop by brewing any style. Things like being able to hit your targets regularly, understanding yeast health, understanding what different ingredients bring to a recipe, avoiding oxygen during transfer etc etc. These skills you can develop and become a great brewer without ever brewing the same recipe twice.

Then there is recipe or style-specific brewing skill. Mostly this comes down to balancing a particular variable. For example, does 10% or 20% oats make a better oatmeal stout, and should one toast the oats first or not?

If you've brewed a lot of different beers with oats (NEIPAs, whatever) then you'll have a pretty good handle on what that ingredient brings to the table and should be able to brew a decently good outmeal stout on the first try.

But there's something to be said for actually brewing the same recipe twice and actually tasting the effects on the BALANCE of that particular beer by varying the amounts or process. And that to me is where rebrewing is important. You'd have to be a particularly gifted or lucky brewer to be able to brew a new recipe and strike the perfect balance first time.

My personal experience has been that my beers always improve when I take the time to develop the recipe.

 

[mongoose33]

At the beginning of this thread I thought I was going to be squarely in the "repetition is good" camp. There's nothing better than a recipe you've tweaked to meet your tastes perfectly, and there's nothing wrong with repeating that again and again. But I think some of the partisans are overstating the case.

For the most critical (IMO) steps, mastering the process is key: what needs to be repeated time and again is the set of processes for the given equipment. Ingredients should be interchangeable -- for example, if you know the potential extract of your grains, you can substitute different grains, and as long as you've mastered your process, you should hit your predicted efficiency numbers.

Furthermore, mastery requires (again, IMO) knowing the different effects of different ingredients. How are you ever going to learn that without trying a bunch of different ones?

I'm not saying you should never try new things. Far from it. I'm saying that for new brewers, process is key, and it takes a while to dial that in. To get really deep into brewing it means all-grain, you need to understand water, mash temps, timing, crush--there's a bunch of stuff to learn. Bouncing from one recipe to the next is not the way to learn process, because you cannot know if mistakes are due to the recipe or the process.

Once the process is more or less down, do whatever. Of course, people can do what they want regardless. My feeling is that if you really want to advance as a brewer, you need to dial in that process, and you are not going to do that by bouncing all over the place.

 

[mongoose33]

I'm not sure what you're trying to "dial in" in your process. The practices required to make good beer aren't exclusive to a recipe. If anything limiting yourself to a particular set of recipes may make finding a bad practice more difficult.

Expand on that, will you? I'm willing to learn, but I'm finding your comment to be almost incredulous. But maybe I'm wrong.

I'm a scientist. In science, we're trained to isolate variables, things that affect the outcome. The more moving parts, the more difficult to do that--in fact, it can be impossible.

 

[Ogroat]

I started brewing about 18 months ago and have been brewing a wide variety of different beers. However, I've recently been coming around to the idea of repeating some things. I've just started fermenting the first in a planned series of three saisons where the brewing process is identical but I switch up the yeast that is being used to ferment them. I'm hoping that this will help me to understand how large of a difference yeast selection makes. I also plan on re-brewing a couple of batches of my favorite past homebrews before the end of the year.

 

[aprichman]

Expand on that, will you? I'm willing to learn, but I'm finding your comment to be almost incredulous. But maybe I'm wrong.

I'm a scientist. In science, we're trained to isolate variables, things that affect the outcome. The more moving parts, the more difficult to do that--in fact, it can be impossible.

You make a logical argument about isolating variables mongoose, but I would respectfully suggest that this is a flawed way to look at brewing. The making of beer has been more or less solved. Best practices are largely understood on a commercial level and more recently a homebrew level.

You asked me to expand on practices that aren't exclusive to brewing the same recipe multiple times to improve your process - I'd redirect you to your own post earlier in this thread:

"I've followed a process of continuous quality improvement as I've gone from a newbie to a brewer of some really good beer (not my evaluation, others'). It's simply this: every time you brew, try to do at least one thing better than last time. Control temps better, control fermentation better, make a better starter or rehydrate your yeast if dry, time your hop additions more accurately, bottle the beer better, do whatever. "

I can't find anything in your process of continuous quality improvement that is dependent on a recipe. If you're not brewing the same recipe can you not control temperatures better? Can you not make a starter or try yeast rehydration?

Making beer isn't trying to fly in the dark. Good recipes are readily available. Good advice is readily available. Obviously there's a learning curve to making beer, getting used to your system, etc. but I don't see how this is dependent on brewing the same recipe. If you can expand on this, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

I saw you say earlier that if you go from recipe to recipe without isolating variables you'll never know why your beer turned out bad. In commercial practice this is untrue. "Bad" is not a flavor or aroma. There's specific things that make beer taste bad. If you're unable to describe why it's bad that points to a lack of lexicon and a lack of understanding regarding common off flavors in beer. Off flavor kits are available through Siebel. I'm a food scientist, and had the opportunity to take two terms of brewing classes as part of my BS. The brewing classes used these kits; learning how to correctly identify off flavors was part of the curriculum. In a brewery QC position this type of sensory training is fairly common and typically required unless you're working for a small craft brewery. Some of the bigger breweries run in house sensory programs that train multiple staff members on off flavors for quality control.

From a brewing QC perspective, this is how you should be approaching your root cause analysis. Once you can accurately identify off flavors you can start to look at what part of your process is out of control. I could discuss how to best approach root cause analysis from a food manufacturing standpoint if you're interested but this is probably a better conversation to take private. In general though, if you have good sanitation, use good ingredients, take good care of the yeast, and transfer your beer with limited oxygen exposure you're going to make great beer.