Brew Pump Woes

[mcl]

I have had some customers asking that I start stocking 3/4" fittings and silicone tubing. I'm not 100% sold because I think it's a limited market and buying any of this stuff in smaller quantities is cost prohibitive. I did just get a few hundred feet of 3/4" ID silicone, but I do think having a size mismatch takes some flexibility out of the QD system and the idea of any to any pumping.

Bobby, I would buy them if you had them. I bought my keg bottom drains and camlocks from you and would love to replace the entire inlet side of my system to 3/4 inch (including the bottom drain kit). This would especially help when I am cleaning grain from the mash tun.

 

[augiedoggy]

The point is to have a place to store a pump, all accessories, and have the pump be in an area where it's not going to get splashed with hot water or wort. It also makes it portable and easy to store.



Liabilities? Such as?



Sorry, that just doesn't work for me. I don't like to do things half assed. I don't have a lot of room to brew, nor a permanent setup. Steel bands around the pump with some kind of "attractive handle?" Just... No.




Do people even do this? Is that even a thing? I don't think I've ever seen a pump mounted directly to a kettle. This also locks that pump to that kettle, and makes the kettle incredibly cumbersome to move around. Now it's somewhat portable.



I'm not going to lie, I could shorten up the hoses, but for right now I think its doing just fine.

[ Cleaning a shorter hose is just as much work as cleaning a longer one. Once brew days is done, I just put some PBW in the kettle, and recirculate for 10-15 minutes. Then run a clean water cycle through and recirculate for a couple of minutes and boom.. done.



The final video I posted where it's working seems to me that I'm getting a pretty good flow. Good enough for me and my 5 gallon batches, or even if I wanted to do a 10 gallon batch. I'm still going to have to slow it down going through the plate chiller.

ok I have to say something here.... mounting the pump in a plastic toolbox with the plastic wall pinched in the middle between the two halves is "half assed" they are not meant to be used that way it causes issues like you already seen plus this is the kind of stuff that voids warranties and such. I do think that what was trying to be said.
I DO get where your coming from many condos and townhouses have ridiculous rules...

mounting the pumps directly to the kettle works for the small light plastic pumps but its not feasable for the but clunky industrial steel pumps...
as far as the comments about more fancy equipment better suited to the bigger pumps I see the point but still dont really agree, I think it depends on the placement and configuration of the equipment and possible the size of the brew rig.... I do believe that for an electric brew setup the stainless pumps are just plain overkill for homebrewers, and I dont see any benefit except being able to maybe stand up better to being dropped on a concrete floor. Otherwise they still seem to fail just as easily and they usually need to be choked way down for many uses plus you need a certian amount of hose lenth to prevent cavitation with the big pumps from what I read...

 

[augiedoggy]

Yes. For recirculating mash, pumping from MLT to kettle and kettle whirlpooling.

You asked.


Whirlpool in action . . .

these pumps are $21 with free shipping from California on ebay right now. they pump 3 gallons a minute.... I have been using one for about a year now along with a couple tan ones they work very well and would honestly make your setup a hell of a lot more portable and easy to clean up and store...

 

[LandoLincoln]

I do believe that for an electric brew setup the stainless pumps are just plain overkill for homebrewers, and I dont see any benefit except being able to maybe stand up better to being dropped on a concrete floor. Otherwise they still seem to fail just as easily and they usually need to be choked way down for many uses plus you need a certian amount of hose lenth to prevent cavitation with the big pumps from what I read...

I've owned both a plastic inline head and a steel center-fed head, and the plastic head had plastic threads (obviously) and because of that, I couldn't crank down on the fittings that much for fear of stripping the threads. The end result was my fittings wobbling and leaking a bit. So I upgraded to a steel head and now I could tighten the fittings down really well, so now I have no wobble and no leaking. So there's one definite advantage to owning a steel head.

As long as my pump head is flooded, I have no problems with cavitation, but I don't have super short hoses, so I can't comment on the minimum hose length requirement. Never had to choke my pumps down for anything, other than draining the MLT too fast or going through the CFC too fast.

 

[LandoLincoln]

these pumps are $21 with free shipping from California on ebay right now. they pump 3 gallons a minute.... I have been using one for about a year now along with a couple tan ones they work very well and would honestly make your setup a hell of a lot more portable and easy to clean up and store...

How do you go from AC power to DC power with those?

 

[MichaelBrock]

I use a pump predominately to circulate the wort during chilling with an IC. I started with one of those small solar hot water pumps but the flow rate just wasn't sufficient. I bought a chugger and it significantly sped up my cooling rate. I really don't understand how anyone could argue that a chugger or March pump is overkill for the typical homebrewer. I don't "choke" my flow rate down at all (other than what comes with the overhead for the plumbing).

 

[Natdavis777]

I know my LHBS keeps some hose clamps in stock for different sizes, but when changed hoses, ie from kettle>pump>whirlpool to kettle>pump>chiller>whirlpool ( to cool then entire batch at once) I use a pair of hemostats to avoid dumping wort from the hoses. This used to make quite a mess until I started clamping before changing out hoses fwiw


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[augiedoggy]

I use a pump predominately to circulate the wort during chilling with an IC. I started with one of those small solar hot water pumps but the flow rate just wasn't sufficient. I bought a chugger and it significantly sped up my cooling rate. I really don't understand how anyone could argue that a chugger or March pump is overkill for the typical homebrewer. I don't "choke" my flow rate down at all (other than what comes with the overhead for the plumbing).

the black one pumps 3 gallons per minute and the tan ones are like 2.5. I have to slow my pump down in the summer when pumping through my plate chiller. I have used them for recirculating through my herms coil and now use them with my rims coil and they are plenty fast enough for me... I guess its all relative to ones accompanying hardware.
you do need to have at least a 1amp 12v powersupply or they wont perform well at all.

 

[augiedoggy]

How do you go from AC power to DC power with those?

well most people just use a wall wort powersupply like a laptop or lcd monitor powersupply (any 1 amp or larger 12v powersuipply will work including an old pc supply) But I use an old 24/12v power supply from an engineering scanner I scrapped its basically a small profile computer powersupply with 24v as well which I use to control my relays I use in place of contractors in my electric control panel. I also use $7 pwm speed controllers which allow me to adjust and mark presets for the pump speed without messing with ball valves.

I used teflon tape and stainless camlock fitting and had no issues tightening it down although I was nervous because I read someone tighened them with a wrench and snapped the neck off...(I hand tightened)

 

[DonnieZ]

ok I have to say something here.... mounting the pump in a plastic toolbox with the plastic wall pinched in the middle between the two halves is "half assed" they are not meant to be used that way it causes issues like you already seen plus this is the kind of stuff that voids warranties and such. I do think that what was trying to be said.
I DO get where your coming from many condos and townhouses have

It seems as though there's two schools of thought on homebrewing - the "I'm right and you're not" and the "Wow, that's a pretty cool way to use something that it wasn't intended for to make brewing easier / better / more fun."

As long as the pump is working properly, I don't really see an issue here with warranty or otherwise. I was talking with another member of our brew club the other day and he said something that I totally agreed with - "I think I enjoy building up my brewery more than brewing itself sometimes." For me at least, there's some satisfaction in figuring something out, building it, and seeing it work in action to either make brewing easier, better, or more fun.

In this case, I think the pump in a toolbox is going to make brewing easier and more fun. Is it going to help me make better beer at the moment? Probably not until I figure out if I want to use this for mash re-circulation or to drive some kind of sparge setup.

I guess there are people who just want to buy everything from the store, read the instruction manual and follow the straight and narrow - and then there are those who have the ambition and vision to make things work better.

 

[augiedoggy]

It seems as though there's two schools of thought on homebrewing - the "I'm right and you're not" and the "Wow, that's a pretty cool way to use something that it wasn't intended for to make brewing easier / better / more fun."

As long as the pump is working properly, I don't really see an issue here with warranty or otherwise. I was talking with another member of our brew club the other day and he said something that I totally agreed with - "I think I enjoy building up my brewery more than brewing itself sometimes." For me at least, there's some satisfaction in figuring something out, building it, and seeing it work in action to either make brewing easier, better, or more fun.

In this case, I think the pump in a toolbox is going to make brewing easier and more fun. Is it going to help me make better beer at the moment? Probably not until I figure out if I want to use this for mash re-circulation or to drive some kind of sparge setup.

I guess there are people who just want to buy everything from the store, read the instruction manual and follow the straight and narrow - and then there are those who have the ambition and vision to make things work better.

No your right,
But you didnt repurpose something into a wort pump Lets take the facts, you took a new pump and modified it to make it bigger and run hotter and also changed the clearance in the pump motor itself which caused problems and will likely shorten its life... Honestly, all I said was if anything this was "half assed" which it what you said you wanted to avoid.
I have done a lot of stuff in my build that I have taken criticism on and a few of those things I still feel I was right and a few I learned the hard way that some of that criticism was right or at least now I know what they meant. the fact is I am on a budget and can upgrade as my budget allows but I have found some amazing alternatives as well as how to appreciate some of my upgrades. I also try to share my experiences with others...I see a lot of limitations with these bigger pumps myself, at least with my setup.

I built an electric setup with low cost components like a $50 rims tube and a plastic control panel box and I even used some electric wire with an unknown insulation rating (larger gauge than needed) that one member swore would turn white and fall off the wire. (still no sign of this) I too enjoy building the system as much as brewing... I I'm waiting on three way valves now so I can have all my hoses/pumps ran between HLT MT and BK without having to move or disconnect anything during the brew process and I have recently "upgraded" my bazooka tube to a dual stage false bottom to see if my efficiency is effected. it never ends but I enjoy it.

 

[AnOldUR]

I guess there are people who just want to buy everything from the store, read the instruction manual and follow the straight and narrow - and then there are those who have the ambition and vision to make things work better.

Ambition and vision are not productive without talent and the ability to take constructive criticism without getting defensive.

 

[Owly055]

If your valve and dip tube inside the pot are 1/2", a 3/4" tube isn't going to help any. 3/4" would be awesome if everything before the pump was 3/4". That 3/4" stuff is pricey.

This is logical.......but wrong. Flow resistance is a function of flow, pipe diameter, and length. A short restriction has far less effect than a length of small diameter tubing. You can see this with ordinary garden hoses............ take three pieces of garden hose. two small diameter, and one large diameter. Hook both small diameter hoses up and time the flow into a bucket, then replace one section with large diameter hose, and you will immediately see the difference.

In this case we are talking about shorter lengths than the garden hose demo, but we are talking about a much more critical application....... pump suction.......... and hot liquid. ANY reduction in flow resistance helps.

The logical change here as I have said before is to connect the pump directly to the coupler at the kettle.....Make a support if necessary. Even a couple of wires from the handles on the kettle to the back of the pump..... a simple wire and hook setup would work fine.

I work with pumps all the time and I would NEVER choke the inlet down. The inlet hose or pipe is always considerably larger than the outlet. If the pump can't be right at the kettle, then put it as close as possible and use the largest line possible.

H.W.

 

[LandoLincoln]

The logical change here as I have said before is to connect the pump directly to the coupler at the kettle.....Make a support if necessary. Even a couple of wires from the handles on the kettle to the back of the pump..... a simple wire and hook setup would work fine.

Logical, but not practical as far as homebrewing goes. I'm not going to take my chugger pump and mount it on the front of my mash tun, and then dismount it and then remount it onto my boil kettle when it comes time to drain into the fermentors. If I had a commercial endeavor where getting the absolute best performance out of my pumps was important, sure, but as a hobbyist I'm just in not that big of a hurry. I can fill two fermentors in about 15 minutes and that's plenty fast for me.

 

[mattd2]

...The logical change here as I have said before is to connect the pump directly to the coupler at the kettle.....Make a support if necessary. Even a couple of wires from the handles on the kettle to the back of the pump..... a simple wire and hook setup would work fine.

I work with pumps all the time and I would NEVER choke the inlet down. The inlet hose or pipe is always considerably larger than the outlet. If the pump can't be right at the kettle, then put it as close as possible and use the largest line possible.

H.W.

One issue I see with connecting it direct to the kettle valve with a dip tube is you will end up with a vacuum lift for the last portion of the pumping out of the kettle (OP doesn't look to bad). This could cause more problems than a short section of 1/2" hose dropping the pump down and increasing the NPSHa.

 

[Owly055]

One issue I see with connecting it direct to the kettle valve with a dip tube is you will end up with a vacuum lift for the last portion of the pumping out of the kettle (OP doesn't look to bad). This could cause more problems than a short section of 1/2" hose dropping the pump down and increasing the NPSHa.

The idea that you are going to get a head pressure advantage by lowering the pump, while using a small diameter suction hose is simply wrong. When the dip tube, fittings, and hose are all below optimal size, there will be no gain at all. Come out of your pot with as many oversize fittings as possible and use oversize hose..... and you may gain a head pressure advantage. Use half inch or even three quarter inch line......... and any significant amount of it, and you quickly lose any head pressure advantage. This is especially true with half inch line.......flow resistance will cancel out any head pressure advantage almost instantly.

H.W.

 

[mattd2]

The idea that you are going to get a head pressure advantage by lowering the pump, while using a small diameter suction hose is simply wrong. When the dip tube, fittings, and hose are all below optimal size, there will be no gain at all. Come out of your pot with as many oversize fittings as possible and use oversize hose..... and you may gain a head pressure advantage. Use half inch or even three quarter inch line......... and any significant amount of it, and you quickly lose any head pressure advantage. This is especially true with half inch line.......flow resistance will cancel out any head pressure advantage almost instantly.

H.W.

How much head loss are you expecting from a short 1/2" hose at the flow rates in the typical setup?

 

[augiedoggy]

Logical, but not practical as far as homebrewing goes. I'm not going to take my chugger pump and mount it on the front of my mash tun, and then dismount it and then remount it onto my boil kettle when it comes time to drain into the fermentors. If I had a commercial endeavor where getting the absolute best performance out of my pumps was important, sure, but as a hobbyist I'm just in not that big of a hurry. I can fill two fermentors in about 15 minutes and that's plenty fast for me.

This is exactly one of my points for the argument for the smaller pumps.... mine are as easy as changing hoses.... of course now I don't have to remove or move any pumps (or hoses) during a brew session....
If I wanted more pumping flow I could easily upgrade to the 24v versions but I really have no need.

 

[AnOldUR]

 

[Natdavis777]

For what it's worth, my setup works like a champ without the pump hooked directly to the tun

Got a wicked recirc going on right now


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[DonnieZ]

Well, I'm happy to report that the pump toolbox worked without a hitch on brew day.

Used the pump setup to get my mash and sparge water from the kettle into the mash tun, to chill wort and move to fermenter, and to clean pretty much every piece of brew day equipment I have - I put some OxyClean Free in the kettle and fired it up. Put everything in from my spoon to the manifold. Recirculated the hot cleaning solution and then did a rinse cycle and it worked out great.

Nary an issue with siphon loss, cavitation, insufficient flow, or pump overheating.

Why didn't I add a pump long ago!!

 

[chisena]

Man, I can't believe I just wasted all that time reading a couple of little ******* arguing in a forum. Didn't really get much out of this. I'll continue tinkering with hose length and component elevations until I improve my flow.

 

[Natdavis777]

Man, I can't believe I just wasted all that time reading a couple of little ******* arguing in a forum. Didn't really get much out of this. I'll continue tinkering with hose length and component elevations until I improve my flow.

Scope out my pic a few posts up. Works like a champ. I think it's two 3' hoses and one 4' hose