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kpr121 said:
These are the elements;
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001RD7MK0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
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Brew Magic to electric
- Thread starter jtkratzer
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
These are the elements;
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001RD7MK0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
I believe you will be A-Ok. IF - you run into a snag, you could just change out the element in the HLT to a 4500W unit.
The statement about the 80% 'rule' is accurate. It also applies to the installing electrician - not the home owner. (How is the average home owner even going to know about the 'rule'?) It also applies to a multi drop circuit & not a single circuit, single outlet instillation.
The link in you post didn't work for some weird reason.
Try this:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001RD7MK0/ref=cm_sw_em_r_am_ip_am_us?ie=UTF8
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Got a pack of these to run the wire along the ceiling and studs in the garage. Got started, but I'm watching the Flyers and hoping for handshakes this afternoon. I'll head back out during the intermissions. I want everything to be in place for when the receptacles and range cords show up on Tuesday that I can be done with the wiring outside of the enclosure.
BeerguyNC61
Well-Known Member
Go Flyers!
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I'm happy with the start. If you haven't been over there, check out this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f45/equally-obnoxious-hockey-trash-talk-thread-eh-213961/
Hung more wire during the intermission and routed the rest of it around the walls back to the subpanel. A few more wire straps and it will be in place to wire into the breaker/panel and ready for the receptacle on Tuesday.
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All of the 6/3 wire is hung. Going to have several feet, maybe close to 20 feet left over if anyone is in need.
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What's the recommendation for mounting location for the 30a dryer receptacles for the heating elements? Front face of the enclosure? Side? Back?
I'm not using the fancy schmancy type cords in Kal's build. They're sexy, but not what I went with. I have the cords where the wire comes out of the bottom of the plug, 90* from the prongs. I was thinking of mounting them so the plug is "upside down" and the cord is facing up toward the elements and considering mounting one on each side at about a 30* angle toward the back of the enclosure as my enclosure is going to hang on the front side of the stand.
Thoughts/suggestions?
Also picked up a 2 1/8" hole saw from my dad to cut out the opening for the receptacles in the enclosure and the spa panel.
I'm not using the fancy schmancy type cords in Kal's build. They're sexy, but not what I went with. I have the cords where the wire comes out of the bottom of the plug, 90* from the prongs. I was thinking of mounting them so the plug is "upside down" and the cord is facing up toward the elements and considering mounting one on each side at about a 30* angle toward the back of the enclosure as my enclosure is going to hang on the front side of the stand.
Thoughts/suggestions?
Also picked up a 2 1/8" hole saw from my dad to cut out the opening for the receptacles in the enclosure and the spa panel.
kpr121
Well-Known Member
My two plugs are on the side and I like it (my 110 plug is also there), but I wish I would have set them up so that the wire end ran to the outside of the pair, that is, to the back and front of the panel. I'll see if I have a pic cuz that was a bad explanation. Think -----() ()----- instead of ----()----()
One thing you may want to think about is keeping the outlets as far away from the 'action' as possible - if there is a spill or some other accident what area will most likely get wet or touched first. Thats the reason why a lot of 110 outlets are installed "upside-down", in case you drop something metal into a loose plug it will hit ground first and not a hot line.
Keeping safety in mind my outlets are all on the opposite side of the 'action', the control panel sits to the far left of the brewery, and the outlets are on the left side of the panel. Make sure your wires are long enough to get to where they need to be though!
One thing you may want to think about is keeping the outlets as far away from the 'action' as possible - if there is a spill or some other accident what area will most likely get wet or touched first. Thats the reason why a lot of 110 outlets are installed "upside-down", in case you drop something metal into a loose plug it will hit ground first and not a hot line.
Keeping safety in mind my outlets are all on the opposite side of the 'action', the control panel sits to the far left of the brewery, and the outlets are on the left side of the panel. Make sure your wires are long enough to get to where they need to be though!
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I'm planning on having my controller on the right as my two tier stand has the HLT and MLT on the top and right most portion. The BK sits lower and to the left. I was thinking about mounting the controller on the end, at the same place the Brew Magic controller is mounted. My power cords for the elements are 6' long, so I should be alright.
I was thinking about mounting the panel facing out from the of the stand and putting the outlets on the right side (back side of the stand) to keep the plugs as far away from liquids as I can.
I was thinking about mounting the panel facing out from the of the stand and putting the outlets on the right side (back side of the stand) to keep the plugs as far away from liquids as I can.
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Kevin (kpr121) and I exchanged some PMs about contactors and SSRs and some of the discussion seems like it might be beneficial to others.
We talked a bit about the role of contactors and SSRs and how they interact, that the SSR handles the frequent on off cycles for temp control by a PID, and the contactor is more of a hard on/off used with a switch on your control box if you dont want the full amperage your elements are drawing flowing through your power switch.
Also, we were discussing whether or not it mattered or the pros/cons of which order to place the SSR and contactor between the PID and the element. I was thinking if the contactor came first and the PID had power, and the power switch to the element was off, it would save on/off cycles on the SSR if you just wanted to monitor the temp as nothing would pass through the contactor. That brought up discussion of incorporating indicator lights on the control panel a live feedback of when the elements were firing and when they were not. If the contactor was first, then the SSR, and you had an indicator light, it would allow you to see if your SSR had failed in the open position in that your element would be firing constantly when maybe it was supposed to maintain a temp or run at a manual percentage to maintain a boil.
The illuminated push button switches from Auber can be wired to illuminate all the time or just when the switch is in the ON position. I was thinking the power to illuminate the switch might be able to come from the legs feeding the elements after the contactor and SSR, which would only illuminate the switch when the element is firing. Not sure if thats possible, but it would kill one bird with two stones.
We talked a bit about the role of contactors and SSRs and how they interact, that the SSR handles the frequent on off cycles for temp control by a PID, and the contactor is more of a hard on/off used with a switch on your control box if you dont want the full amperage your elements are drawing flowing through your power switch.
Also, we were discussing whether or not it mattered or the pros/cons of which order to place the SSR and contactor between the PID and the element. I was thinking if the contactor came first and the PID had power, and the power switch to the element was off, it would save on/off cycles on the SSR if you just wanted to monitor the temp as nothing would pass through the contactor. That brought up discussion of incorporating indicator lights on the control panel a live feedback of when the elements were firing and when they were not. If the contactor was first, then the SSR, and you had an indicator light, it would allow you to see if your SSR had failed in the open position in that your element would be firing constantly when maybe it was supposed to maintain a temp or run at a manual percentage to maintain a boil.
The illuminated push button switches from Auber can be wired to illuminate all the time or just when the switch is in the ON position. I was thinking the power to illuminate the switch might be able to come from the legs feeding the elements after the contactor and SSR, which would only illuminate the switch when the element is firing. Not sure if thats possible, but it would kill one bird with two stones.
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Progress:
Not the prettiest, but not bad for free hand with a Dremel.
Not the prettiest, but not bad for free hand with a Dremel.
kpr121
Well-Known Member
That looks pretty good. Better than my hack job with the dremel and jig saw, notice I didn't put many pictures of my cut holes on my build thread haha.
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kpr121 said:
I'm just trying to document it and post results. I probably went through 8 of Dremel cutoff wheels for those two holes. Then used a tiny "grinding cylinder" to smooth up the rough edges.
I'll need to get more for the PID holes. I'm hoping a hole saw is good enough to cut the holes for the outlets.
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Auber Instruments is an awesome place to deal with. I called them yesterday with some questions about their 40A 240V contactors and they answered them. Awesome, no big deal. I guess they recognized my name as I've placed a few orders (one on Friday) and pulled an old order from six months ago, and called me back to tell me in that order, I had ordered 120V contactors and that if the questions I was asking were in reference to the same contactors, I had the wrong ones.
They're letting me ship back the incorrect contactors and a couple other things I've decided to change on my brewery and swap them along with purchasing a few additional items.
As far as the indicator lights for the elements firing, I bought a pair of 240V LED indicators and added a flashing buzzer to let me know when the strike water is up to temp, etc. Looks like the indicator lights can tap right into the ouput side of the contactor where element receptacles are wired, only lighting when that receptacle is "hot."
They're letting me ship back the incorrect contactors and a couple other things I've decided to change on my brewery and swap them along with purchasing a few additional items.
As far as the indicator lights for the elements firing, I bought a pair of 240V LED indicators and added a flashing buzzer to let me know when the strike water is up to temp, etc. Looks like the indicator lights can tap right into the ouput side of the contactor where element receptacles are wired, only lighting when that receptacle is "hot."
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Spa panel wired, outlet mounted and wired into spa panel with a 4' range cord to plug into the outlet that will be mounted to the wall and wired tomorrow. Other end will be wired into the sub panel and new breaker.
I looked at one diagram for the plug and I'm assuming this is correct.
I looked at one diagram for the plug and I'm assuming this is correct.
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I wired the outlet and breaker after work. Time to start laying out components on the back plate of the enclosure and make my lines for the holes to cut/drill/punch.
BeerguyNC61
Well-Known Member
But first you have to watch my Bruins win! LOL
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BeerguyNC61 said:
I'll have the game on...
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Scavenged the Little Giant 3-MD-MT-HC pump from the Brew Magic. It was wired with leads, not a plug for power. I have brown, blue, and green leads. I'm assuming brown hot, blue neutral, green ground? Any ideas?
From another thread:
"When wiring pumps with no plug, the green (or green/yellow) wire is the ground. The other two wires are line (live)."
HTH
"When wiring pumps with no plug, the green (or green/yellow) wire is the ground. The other two wires are line (live)."
HTH
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P-J said:
Thanks. I tried Google and even the manufacturer's PDF on the pump and couldn't confirm or deny anything.
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P-J,
I'm looking over the diagram and comparing some things to how Kal has his laid out, just for component placement, and he doesn't appear to use a terminal block/bus for the ground, and I wanted to make sure I don't need to use the grounding wire/screws from the door to the enclosure backing since everything requiring a ground will tie into that bus and back all the through the wiring to the main breaker panel.
Also, I stopped in at a hardware store for a propane fill up and checked out what they had for fuses and I wasn't surprised at their minimal selection that apply to the build. Your parts list doesn't list anything (unless I missed it) on the fuses/holders for the PIDs and bits and pieces for the e-stop. Any particular favorite for a source, Radio Shack?
Also, just for a sanity check for safety, I bought terminal blocks rated to 25A 600V...that should be fine as each hot will have it's own bus and each hot is limited to 25 amps, right?
And my "assistant" last night...in there while I wired an element housing as he wouldn't leave me alone.
I'm looking over the diagram and comparing some things to how Kal has his laid out, just for component placement, and he doesn't appear to use a terminal block/bus for the ground, and I wanted to make sure I don't need to use the grounding wire/screws from the door to the enclosure backing since everything requiring a ground will tie into that bus and back all the through the wiring to the main breaker panel.
Also, I stopped in at a hardware store for a propane fill up and checked out what they had for fuses and I wasn't surprised at their minimal selection that apply to the build. Your parts list doesn't list anything (unless I missed it) on the fuses/holders for the PIDs and bits and pieces for the e-stop. Any particular favorite for a source, Radio Shack?
Also, just for a sanity check for safety, I bought terminal blocks rated to 25A 600V...that should be fine as each hot will have it's own bus and each hot is limited to 25 amps, right?
And my "assistant" last night...in there while I wired an element housing as he wouldn't leave me alone.
Radio Shack - Fuse Holder
Radio Shack - Your choice of fuses
Radio Shack - 1K resistors
The terminal blocks you got will be ok IMHO.
Hope this helps.
Radio Shack - Your choice of fuses
Radio Shack - 1K resistors
The terminal blocks you got will be ok IMHO.
Hope this helps.
Just saw your added picture.
That is a really neat cat. Looks like he is an important helper.
That is a really neat cat. Looks like he is an important helper.
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P-J said:
He's really a dog. Seeks attention like a lab. One of a few cats I actually like because he doesn't behave like a cat at all.
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Thanks. Any advantage to the panel mount vs the inline style fuse holders?
Justin talked to Andy at Auber to make sure I wire the the pair of illuminated indicator lights to show when my elements are firing correctly and he said I can feed the indicator by drawing from the output of the contactor, as long as it's parallel to the heating element and not in series. And with the $3.45 price for the indicator, they're almost cheaper than the price of a fuse holder and fuse.
I think there is an advantage with the Inline Fuse Holder.
You would rarely need to replace a fuse so it's no big deal and you would not have to drill extra holes in your control panel.
kpr121
Well-Known Member
Yeah, if your CP is remotely easy to open, in the very unlikely scenario that one of those fuses are blown, I say use the inline fuse. Those panel mount fuse holders are a pain to work with, and the plastic has a tendency to break with very little pressure. Plus like PJ said you have to drill more holes. I wish I hadnt used them in my control panel.
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That's what I was thinking. When you linked to the panel mount, I figured you knew something I didn't.
I saw you used the panel mount type and with P-J's original link, thought there might be a trend.
Thanks again for your help, to both of you.
That's what I was thinking. When you linked to the panel mount, I figured you knew something I didn't.
I saw you used the panel mount type and with P-J's original link, thought there might be a trend.
Thanks again for your help, to both of you.
I am planning on DIN mounting as many components as possible. Any experience out there using the DIN mounted fuse holders or secondary low amperage breakers?
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I'm using DIN for my breakers and I have waaaaay more than I need and could mail some to you if you want. I have two rails and they're each 3-4' long and I only need like 6-8" to mount my three breakers.
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Got to Radio Shack and found these:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062258
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062257
At $3.49 and $2.19, it was cheaper than getting six inline holders at $2.99/each.
I decided to put fuses on the indicator lights because it's really easy to keep spare fuses around and swap them if one blows. It'd be at least a 2 day wait for shipping plus paying for shipping for a $3.45 indicator from Auber if one fried because I didn't put a fuse on it.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062258
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062257
At $3.49 and $2.19, it was cheaper than getting six inline holders at $2.99/each.
I decided to put fuses on the indicator lights because it's really easy to keep spare fuses around and swap them if one blows. It'd be at least a 2 day wait for shipping plus paying for shipping for a $3.45 indicator from Auber if one fried because I didn't put a fuse on it.
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Breaker installed, wired and 50 amp service run to the receptacle, which has been mounted and covered with a face plate and closed up the sub-panel. Checked everything out with the multimeter and it's all good in the hood.
Trimmed the DIN rail down to size for the three breakers and took care of a few other odds and ends. Didn't want to wait for the return to process at Auber and not have my stuff for the weekend, so I ordered everything and I'll let them credit back the returned items.
Looked up a couple places that do water jet cutting to call tomorrow to see what they charge...I have no idea, just curious.
Time for a Latitude 48 IPA and a pair of Game 7s.
Trimmed the DIN rail down to size for the three breakers and took care of a few other odds and ends. Didn't want to wait for the return to process at Auber and not have my stuff for the weekend, so I ordered everything and I'll let them credit back the returned items.
Looked up a couple places that do water jet cutting to call tomorrow to see what they charge...I have no idea, just curious.
Time for a Latitude 48 IPA and a pair of Game 7s.
Thanks for the offer! I have a couple short pieces already, but may need more. I'm just starting to assemble parts lists, and I'm not sure what I want. On the go-cheap route, I have existing 30AMP 240vAC service to my laundry room that I can probably piggyback on (just need to figure out a ventilation route), but the dreamer in me keeps thinking about automation and going bigger, e.g. 50 or 60 AMP service and associated control panel. Because of this, and lots of other higher priority projects, this is sort of on a go-slow plan. I'll be happy if I'm ready to order parts by the end of May.
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Added a pair of indicators to show when the elements are firing as well as the alarm for use with the PIDs and temps. E-stop is also added. Red switch will be wired to power the PIDs, blues switch the contractors allowing power to get to the elements, and greens will power 15 amp outlets for a pump(s), a stir motor, etc, but only two items.
I know it needs to be laid out how I want and in an easy, common sense way for brew day. Just looking to get opinions from those who have the insight and can help me avoid any mistakes.
I know it needs to be laid out how I want and in an easy, common sense way for brew day. Just looking to get opinions from those who have the insight and can help me avoid any mistakes.
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Internal layout:
Everything should be mostly self-explanatory. The 4 fuses holder between the contactors are for a fuse for each leg from the contactor to protect the indicator lights showing when the elements are firing. The other individual fuse holders are for the PIDs and the e-stop. Just trying to ensure I have enough clearance between the top of the internal components and the backs of the PIDs.
I'm thinking about swapping the breakers and the top two terminal blocks...haven't decided, but I'd like to keep the power cord for the enclosure as long as possible to give me room to move around.
I'll see how this goes for now, but I'm starting to anticipate that I'll eventually get a length of wire and a set of plugs and a few connectors to make my own power cord at least 10' long. We'll see, 6' will give me enough space to at least get the brewery outside the garage door, even if only barely.
Everything should be mostly self-explanatory. The 4 fuses holder between the contactors are for a fuse for each leg from the contactor to protect the indicator lights showing when the elements are firing. The other individual fuse holders are for the PIDs and the e-stop. Just trying to ensure I have enough clearance between the top of the internal components and the backs of the PIDs.
I'm thinking about swapping the breakers and the top two terminal blocks...haven't decided, but I'd like to keep the power cord for the enclosure as long as possible to give me room to move around.
I'll see how this goes for now, but I'm starting to anticipate that I'll eventually get a length of wire and a set of plugs and a few connectors to make my own power cord at least 10' long. We'll see, 6' will give me enough space to at least get the brewery outside the garage door, even if only barely.
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This is the other layout I was considering to keep all the terminals together and it looks like I won't have any depth issues with the PIDs and the breakers. And the left-most breaker will be pushed out to the edge of the back plate. I want to make sure I have room between them all with the crimp connectors and wiring.
Outlets are in there just to show they'll be on that side.
Outlets are in there just to show they'll be on that side.
Looks nice! What is the size of your enclosure and where did you source it?
