Brettanomyces! Sours! Oh sweet Odin's beard! WTF did I just drink?

[jakeymon]

Hola, fellow beer nerds. Got some questions for you.

I've been brewing for eight months or so and enjoying it. Feel like I have my stuff pretty well together - several good batches, even a lager. So I started thinking that I should try something new (to me). I heard somewhere (ahem) that sours and beers with brettanomyces are super hip right now, so I put that on the list.

So because I'm a cautious guy, I figured I'd get a sample of each type to see what's what. So I bought some belgian sours and something 'bottled with brett'.

Okay, so, first. The sour ('Petrus Aged Pale Ale') reminded me of cider, and by reminded me I mean I thought it tasted JUST LIKE CIDER. Which is fine, I get it, whatever. Lawnmower blah blah blah. But that's not why I drink beer though so I crossed it off my list.

Now the puzzle. The brett beer was an Anchorage Brewing Company Galaxy White IPA. It was the only beer with brettonomyces I could find at the store (granted, I went to bev mo, but whatever). Chilled it down. Poured it. Great frothy head, crazy active carbonation. Smelled nice! Er, different, but nice!

Tasted it. First thought was 'wow, this is all over the place.' Second thought was 'wow, okay, uh, hmm.' Handed it to SWMBO. She smelled ('smells pretty good!') and tasted ('oh-- oh-- oh god') and put the glass down. 'This tastes like cat piss,' she said. And, well, yeah. It kinda did. I drank some more but just couldn't quite get there. Okay, by 'couldn't quite get there' I mean it tasted like cat piss. Drained the rest and poured a pint of Guinness from our kegerator (which tasted especially chocolatey and delicious in the aftermath).

So. What am I missing here? With either but especially with the brett beer. Are 'funky!' and 'barnyard!' euphemisms for 'urine!'? I'm joking, kinda, but would love some insight here. Maybe there's a better example of a commercial brett beer out there I can find?

Or is my reaction that of pansy, a light weight, an unworthy beer nerd, a fellow who's just one step away from saying 'hey! Miller really is the champagne of beers!' and maybe I should just keep to kiddy beers and let the adults do their thing?

Thanks in advance for your insight and the inevitable responses pointing to my unworthiness.

 

[estricklin]

Hey it's ok man, I mean a lot of sours and Brets just do taste like crap. I'm a beer nerd from the word go but some of that stuff is just terrible, and I'm not going to force myself to like it just because I'm told I should. Maybe I am just a dumb country Arkie at heart, but I've tried various beers as you describe above and more often than not I'm disappointed.

I used to hate IPAs, if you can believe that, but I came around. I still hate some brett beers, and I have started threads here on HBT to prove it!

Lindeman's Peach Lambic, find it, try it, you'll love it or we can't be friends. It's sour and has brett, it's fantastic and I'm POSITIVE you'll be able to find it easily in SF.

 

[The_Glue]

 

[dbkdev]

Duchesse de bourgogne. Love that one. Ive found I like Flanders red ales as far as sours go.

 

[RmikeVT]

I'm not too big on the Brett Pales/IPA either. Maybe try sticking to the belgians, that know what they are doing. The beers those guys mentioned above are great. Orval is another, I believe it uses brett in secondary.

Some of the Brett beers need a little more age than our US Craft Brewers are willing to give them before going to market.

 

[geoffey]

Sours, like many other fermented beverages, take some getting used to. For some it's an acquires taste. For some it's not. But I wouldn't judge the "sour" category on just one or two beers. Especially a Sour IPA. Don't feel like you have to love this style to be considered a beer expert. But DO give some of the above mentioned beers a shot. Also consider a Saison with Brett or a Biere de Garde that has some Brett. Those two styles showcase Brett a little differently than other sours.


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[BulldogBrewer]

Or is my reaction that of pansy, a light weight, an unworthy beer nerd, a fellow who's just one step away from saying 'hey! Miller really is the champagne of beers!' and maybe I should just keep to kiddy beers and let the adults do their thing?

Yes!




Just kidding ;-)

You don't have to like these beers just because a lot of us do. That Anchorage Galaxy White is a fantastic beer IMO but doesn't mean you are going to like it. I tend to like the cat-pissy simcoe beers as well. It's just a flavor profile that I enjoy. Often times the funkier the better.

On the other side of that, I would never go for the guiness, just can't stand it. To each their own, that's why we brew!

 

[dbkdev]

Seriously, try the duchesse re Bourgogne. I had a few before that, but that was the real segway for me. I couldn't drink a lot of them in one sitting though. Sweet beers get to me fast. I love a bottle though

 

[TallDan]

Another thing to keep in mind is that sours can take a long time to age, which means it takes a brewery a long time to work on a recipe, see what worked and what didn't, learn from it and try again. A commercial craft brewery can turn around an ale in a few weeks, but the sours will take months or maybe even years. Combine that with the fact that most american craft brewers have only recently taken to sour styles and I've found that there's a lot of sour beer that just isn't up to the same standards as the rest of the craft beer I can buy.

The best sour beers are hard to find in a lot of cases. Being on the west coast, see if you can find any of the Russian River sours. One that I haven't had for a while but enjoy is Lindeman's Cuvee Rene and last I knew it was pretty easy to find. I've had a couple good sour beers from New Belgium, but it's been long enough that I can't recommend any specific ones.

Damn, I think I need to go out and pick up some sour beers and/or drink a couple from the cellar.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

I've been around belgium when I lived just across the border for a few years and I just never liked the sour lambics either..... just not for my palate.

I just had the '59er' from Odells, which is a pilsner brewed with Brett, the nose was like sticking my head into a bushel of ripe fruit, and the taste was amazing! Not sour, not piss-like, just fantastic. So done right they can something really different and really great.

Cheers,
Steve

 

[Rivenin]

Galaxy from anchorage is a strain of brett that throws tropical fruit ontop of the heavy galaxy hop usage would possibly come across as "catty". i've had it a few times, i personally enjoy it a ton, but it's not everyones cup o tea.

Do you have another beer store close by? or how close are you to russian river?
http://russianriverbrewing.com/brews/sanctification/ would be a great example of brett fermentation

also, if you can get out there, they have badass taster trays full of sours and brett and regular beers
(not my pic, i've never been, but i love russian river beers)

 

[microbusbrewery]

The cat piss in the galaxy IPA might also be from a sensitivity to the hops. I haven't heard of Galaxy being described as pissy, but a lot of the real citrusy high AA hops are described that way.

For a brett beer, I like Elder Brett from Epic. It's a pretty solid brett beer especially if you can find one with a little age on it.

Sours are like smoked beers, people tend to love them or hate them and not much in between. +1 for giving Duchess and Lindemans a try. Lindemans is heavily back-sweetened so a lot of purists don't consider them to be good examples of lambics, but I think they're good entry level sours that will help you decide if you want to dig deeper.

 

[BigTuna]

Rodenbach Grand Cru. It's a Flanders Red Ale, doesn't taste like barnyard or horse ass. It's nice and roasted, dark fruit and a bit sour.

 

[xtremesr31]

Ommegang Wild at Heart is an excellent brett beer. It's surprisingly clean for a brett.

 

[bruteforce]

Endymion from Freetail Brewing was one of my favorite sours. But the king by far has to be Anderson Valley's Peachy Barl Sour. I had planned on trying several other belgian style beers that night, but when I hit that, I kept going back for it instead.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Okay, so, first. The sour ('Petrus Aged Pale Ale') reminded me of cider, and by reminded me I mean I thought it tasted JUST LIKE CIDER.

I think you need to revisit this in the future. I don't think it tastes a thing like cider. Maybe has passing resemblances to Basque cider, but that's more because of the yeast profile than the apples.

So. What am I missing here?

In a word, my best guess is "experience." There's a whole new world of flavors to experience in soured or bretted beers, and I wouldn't expect anyone to pick up on all of them, and hence how to enjoy such a beer, at first try.

As a starting point, albeit a somewhat crude one, make a list of all of the BJCP categories that include soured beers, add the odd stuff with brett tossed in (Orval, some old stock ales, etc.), then get yourself a good commercial example or two of each.

Don't think all sours are of a kind, either. They're no more the same than all beers using sacc yeast. It's not like you can try an IPA and know whether you'll like a stout or a mild or not. Same holds in this world of beers.

Lindeman's Peach Lambic, find it, try it, you'll love it or we can't be friends. It's sour and has brett, it's fantastic and I'm POSITIVE you'll be able to find it easily in SF.

It's sour? I think I missed that amongst all the sweetness.

 

[Bearclaw215]

Try liefmans goudenband or cuvee brut. Great beers but i always have trouble finding them near me

 

[YNOT2K]

Rodenbach Grand Cru. It's a Flanders Red Ale, doesn't taste like barnyard or horse ass. It's nice and roasted, dark fruit and a bit sour.

I second this. Rodenbach Grand Cru is the perfect example of a Flanders Red and a great introduction to sours.

 

[DarthCitra]

Try Sour in the Rye from The Bruery. Aged for a year in oak and sets the bar for those sour beers.

 

[Pilgarlic]

Gose. Lambic. Gueze. Flanders Red. Oud Bruin. Kriek. Framboise. American Sour. American Brett. Wit with Lacto (NB's "Snapshot" was a nice surprise). Orval. Many varieties and a wide range of beers within each style. An almost infinite variety of "specialties". Oaked. Not oaked. Lots to explore. Some you may like, some you may not. The unpasteurized ones will continue to change over time, so you may like them next year. It's very hard to generalize. Keep exploring.

 

[MagooBrew]

Rodenbach Grand Cru. It's a Flanders Red Ale, doesn't taste like barnyard or horse ass. It's nice and roasted, dark fruit and a bit sour.

This is a great gateway to sour beers. Do not get turned off by the first ones you have tried.

 

[GarageDweller]

Boulevard Love Child No.3 (no.4 should be out soon), ANYTHING from Jester King, anything from Cascade Barrel House (my fav is the apricot).

If at first you don't succeed, try, try-again...

 

[jakeymon]

Thanks for all these thoughtful responses, (fellow) nerds. I have a nice long shopping list now and, the next time I'm at Ales Unlimited (great store in SF - a real gem) I'll pick some up.

+1 all around.

Cheers! -jakeymon

 

[BulldogBrewer]

Thanks for all these thoughtful responses, (fellow) nerds. I have a nice long shopping list now and, the next time I'm at Ales Unlimited (great store in SF - a real gem) I'll pick some up.

+1 all around.

Cheers! -jakeymon

Is Ales Unlimited the one in Japantown? That's great bottleshop that you would never really guess was there.

 

[jakeymon]

Is Ales Unlimited the one in Japantown? That's great bottleshop that you would never really guess was there.

Yup, that's the one - between Jackson and Webster. I was shocked when I wandered in the first time. What a great store. It's probably where I should have gone to start my sour and brett hunt, but it's cross town and I was at bev moe for spirits anyway.

 

[fijigus]

Yeah, you ended up with two of the lighter ones right off the bat. I just tried my first couple Gose, and if I had tried those a year or two ago I would have not been impressed. But now I thought they were great. Going to try 3 guezes I have been saving, and they are supposedly 3 of the best. And I have had a bunch of sours and loved almost all of those. I would even put most farmhouse/saizons in the same category. As well as a lot of belgians that they are all acquired tastes and not for everyone, especially considering most of them are expensive.

If I had to choose, it would be dark sours first, fruit sours second, the lighter stuff 3rd and the farmhouses 4th. Would be interesting to see a poll of 10 examples of some of these ranked by all of us and see how across the board the choices would be.

 

[BulldogBrewer]

Yup, that's the one - between Jackson and Webster. I was shocked when I wandered in the first time. What a great store. It's probably where I should have gone to start my sour and brett hunt, but it's cross town and I was at bev moe for spirits anyway.

That's a great shop. I found it sort of accidentally when I was in the city but had to leave before noon so wouldn't be able to get to City Beer since they didn't open until noon. At the time, I was at my sisters who lived at 15th and Geary, so it was perfect!

 

[Crucial-BBQ]

Hola, fellow beer nerds. Got some questions for you.

I've been brewing for eight months or so and enjoying it. Feel like I have my stuff pretty well together - several good batches, even a lager. So I started thinking that I should try something new (to me). I heard somewhere (ahem) that sours and beers with brettanomyces are super hip right now, so I put that on the list.

So because I'm a cautious guy, I figured I'd get a sample of each type to see what's what. So I bought some belgian sours and something 'bottled with brett'.

Okay, so, first. The sour ('Petrus Aged Pale Ale') reminded me of cider, and by reminded me I mean I thought it tasted JUST LIKE CIDER. Which is fine, I get it, whatever. Lawnmower blah blah blah. But that's not why I drink beer though so I crossed it off my list.

Now the puzzle. The brett beer was an Anchorage Brewing Company Galaxy White IPA. It was the only beer with brettonomyces I could find at the store (granted, I went to bev mo, but whatever). Chilled it down. Poured it. Great frothy head, crazy active carbonation. Smelled nice! Er, different, but nice!

Tasted it. First thought was 'wow, this is all over the place.' Second thought was 'wow, okay, uh, hmm.' Handed it to SWMBO. She smelled ('smells pretty good!') and tasted ('oh-- oh-- oh god') and put the glass down. 'This tastes like cat piss,' she said. And, well, yeah. It kinda did. I drank some more but just couldn't quite get there. Okay, by 'couldn't quite get there' I mean it tasted like cat piss. Drained the rest and poured a pint of Guinness from our kegerator (which tasted especially chocolatey and delicious in the aftermath).

So. What am I missing here? With either but especially with the brett beer. Are 'funky!' and 'barnyard!' euphemisms for 'urine!'? I'm joking, kinda, but would love some insight here. Maybe there's a better example of a commercial brett beer out there I can find?

Or is my reaction that of pansy, a light weight, an unworthy beer nerd, a fellow who's just one step away from saying 'hey! Miller really is the champagne of beers!' and maybe I should just keep to kiddy beers and let the adults do their thing?

Thanks in advance for your insight and the inevitable responses pointing to my unworthiness.

First off, being a beer "nerd" does not mean you have to like all types and all beers, it just means that you should have an obscene amount of "trivial" beer knowledge over the pedestrian beer swiller (but don't let it go to your head!).

With that, sours are an acquired taste just like "beer" is in general. I cannot think of one one person, myself included, who took that first sip of beer and thought, Holy Mother of all Things Awesome! This is the absolute best thing I ever put my lips to! Nope. Most people force their way through their first beers to get to the alcohol. Perhaps that is why lite beers are so prevalent amongst "green" beer drinkers.

To me, some sours are good and some verge on the bizarre. Off the top of my head, Allagash is the only American brewer who I would trust to make a proper sour anything. I mean, their Avancé is aged for three years. For their Belgian-style sour, Gargamel, they use raw wheat and age that sucker for 18 months. Their Old HLT is aged for two years, and to my knowledge they are the only American "craft" brewer to open ferment and allow all and ever wild yeast and bacteria in.

They are a small brewer, truly craft, so distribution is a "problem" with them.

My point with the above is that if you want to taste a "good" sour you need to "get one from the source". Try a few that were brewed in Belgium and I am [almost] positive you will change your mind.

By the way, I looked up Anchorage Galaxy White IPA and I must say that it sounds tasty on "paper" but I have some bad experiences with wit-IPAs, including the one I brewed myself (the only tastes that come through are bitter and sour. Despite using a ton of hops there is zero hop aroma or flavor).

Some of the Brett beers need a little more age than our US Craft Brewers are willing to give them before going to market.

It's the American brewing tradition fueled largely in part in effort to keep costs down.

 

[BulldogBrewer]

To me, some sours are good and some verge on the bizarre. Off the top of my head, Allagash is the only American brewer who I would trust to make a proper sour anything. I mean, their Avancé is aged for three years. For their Belgian-style sour, Gargamel, they use raw wheat and age that sucker for 18 months. Their Old HLT is aged for two years, and to my knowledge they are the only American "craft" brewer to open ferment and allow all and ever wild yeast and bacteria in.

Have you had anything from The Bruery, Cascade, Almanac or the Rare Barrel yet? They are all doing fantastic sours.

 

[Crucial-BBQ]

Have you had anything from The Bruery, Cascade, Almanac or the Rare Barrel yet? They are all doing fantastic sours.

No, but I will be on the lookout.

 

[Weezy]

Timmermans Kriek or a Petrus. They're like a rough cherry soda.

+1 on the Rodenbauch Grand Cru

These are all pretty widely distributed and good, drinkable sours.

 

[strambo]

I'm lucky that Cascade is pretty local for me, they have amazing sours. You should be able to find a few Russian River choices, I've had 1, Supplication I think, it was very good. I'll pile on the Rodenbauch Grand Cru bandwagon, it is an excellent sour that you can find lots of places.

The Brett white IPA doesn't sound good, don't judge them based on that!

I like dark and high ABV sours barrel aged with complex flavors. I find that the sourness cuts through everything, ties it together and makes them wonderfully complex whereas a 12% ABV barrel aged on vanilla with blah blah stout not soured would tend to be cloyingly sweet and disjointed.

 

[BigTuna]

So it seems like a lot of people agree with my recommendation. Have you tried it yet? I'm actually excited to see what you think of it!



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