Brett inoculated fridge?

[suitbrewing]

Greetings to the group

After having fermented a 100% Brett beer in my fermentation fridge I had two clean beers developing pellicle which to my mind suggests the presence of wild yeast (possibly Brett).

For two clean beers I used clean equipment (i.e. different than the equipment used to brew the Brett beer) and exercised my regular sanitisation procedures (no issues in the past).

I have noted that during the first visual inspection (when adding dry hops/around two weeks into fermentation) there would be no pellicle on the surface. At the end of fermentation (keging day) pellicle was visible.

Is there a chance that my fermentation fridge got inoculated with Brett which enters the fermentation bucket when opening to add the dry hops??

Has anyone had a similar experience??

How can I get rid of the Brett??

 

[Dcpcooks]

Is this the first time you have had brett in your brew space? What is your normal sanitation procedure? Yes it is possible you have some cross contamination going on, do you recall splashing any brett during transfer? Did you splash any at bottling or kegging?

I ferment wild yeast and clean yeast in the same space, I even use the same stainless fermentors. I do swap out all the gaskets so it can be done.

I would clean the fridge with PBW and sanitizer or even bleach. Brett can't crawl so it's either airborne and getting access when you open the lid. Or it's on something in your gear you've overlooked. Try turning off the fermentor when you need to open the buckets so you don't have a fan blowing when you open the lid.

I'd also look for something you could have overlooked like a thief or racking arm or a spoon, air lock or stopper, the flask you used for a starter etc. it doesn't take much brett to start a problem if it is the cause of the problem.

It could be something else as well, a dirty ball valve or another infection. Are you milling grain in the space?

Have you detected a sour off flavor in these beers?

 

[ericbw]

Is this the first time you have had brett in your brew space? What is your normal sanitation procedure? Yes it is possible you have some cross contamination going on, do you recall splashing any brett during transfer? Did you splash any at bottling or kegging?

I ferment wild yeast and clean yeast in the same space, I even use the same stainless fermentors. I do swap out all the gaskets so it can be done.

I would clean the fridge with PBW and sanitizer or even bleach. Brett can't crawl so it's either airborne and getting access when you open the lid. Or it's on something in your gear you've overlooked. Try turning off the fermentor when you need to open the buckets so you don't have a fan blowing when you open the lid.

I'd also look for something you could have overlooked like a thief or racking arm or a spoon, air lock or stopper, the flask you used for a starter etc. it doesn't take much brett to start a problem if it is the cause of the problem.

It could be something else as well, a dirty ball valve or another infection. Are you milling grain in the space?

Have you detected a sour off flavor in these beers?

Good troubleshooting!

 

[suitbrewing]

many thanks for getting back ! Response below


Is this the first time you have had brett in your brew space? Yes this was my first brett beer

What is your normal sanitation procedure? Wash all cold side parts with Oxi and sanitise with Starsan (10ml in 5L). Small parts go into starsan bath, fermentor add the 5L and shake.

Yes it is possible you have some cross contamination going on, do you recall splashing any brett during transfer? Did you splash any at bottling or kegging? Not that I can remember and all that was away from my clean setup.


I would clean the fridge with PBW and sanitizer or even bleach. I have sprayed the fridge with starsan between the two infected beers but it did not eliminate the issue. I should probably first clean the fridge (bleach/PBW) and then spray with Starsan again.

I also want to reclaim the equipment that had the infected beers (one of the fermenters being a Speidel). I have been suggested Iodophor at a higher concentration, then rinse and apply starsan or to immerse everything on boiling water (which would require a very large container that can take hot water).


Have you detected a sour off flavor in these beers? 1st beer (a pale ale) with pellicle over the entire surface had an off flavour whilst the second beer (hoppy pils) with less pellicle had no noticeable off flavour (at least for me).

 

[Sourz4life]

Brett isn't spore forming like its counter part Dekkera. So it just being in the vicinity won't contaminate. A common myth with Brett usually. I've done tons of micro tests confirming most of the myths involving Brett and bacteria are just that. It can't hurt clean the fridge if you think maybe a spore forming wild yeast could be causing it such as Pichia.

 

[ericbw]

I ferment a lot of things in the house, but no Brett (not my thing). But I have gotten a pellicle on my sourdough, which I assume is cross contaminated with kombucha. I also do pickles and other vegetable ferments. So far no cross over to beers, though.

Sourdough, booch, and pickles are open air, so they're more likely to get crossover than something under an airlock.

 

[Dcpcooks]

I also want to reclaim the equipment that had the infected beers (one of the fermenters being a Speidel). I have been suggested Iodophor at a higher concentration, then rinse and apply starsan or to immerse everything on boiling water (which would require a very large container that can take hot water).





I would not boil a spiedel. Hot tap water and PBW with a good long soak (over night or at least a few hours then wipe it with a soft clean cloth should clean it. Then a hot tap water rinse and then room temp star San rinse. Take the valve off and clean that as well. I can't speak to oxiclean as I don't use it but I know many folks like it.

Switching up your sanitizer can be effective. I have never had a problem with PBW and star San fwiw.

I'm of the opinion that it's something other than your chamber. I've been fermenting in the same two units for years and I have 5 wild barrels in the space. So I have brett lacto and pedio all over my brew space and I'm able to brew clean beers. So it unlikely its air borne and more likely it's coming in another way and it's possible it's not Brett but something else entirely.

I'm still for cleaning the fermentor space. It will remove one thing from your list of potential sources.

It's really a game of elimination at this point so amp up your cleaning and sanitizing game. I'd make a 5 gallon batch of cleaner, rinse water and star San and toss everything in. Then clean the chamber and fermentors with a fresh batch of cleaner, rinse and sani. If you can afford it replace all soft plastic gear as a last resort.

Don't forget to check your boil kettle valve. It can get gummy with wort and then get baked on inside from the heat. You cant sanitize something that still dirty. Look at your chiller as well, putting an immersion chiller in the boil kettle for the last ten min should be enough but you never know as not 100 % of the coil gets submerged. Yes the Hot wort should kill or pasteurize but I've seen it happen from time to time. Basically you need to consider that everything after the boil ( including your kettle valve) can be the source of the problem.

Don't fret you'll find it and be able to brew clean beers again.

 

[secondbase]

There is some excellent troubleshooting here. I ferment wild beers and clean beers side by side and have for years with no contamination issues. Definitely going to echo that it's likely a piece of equipment rather than the fridge. Definitely clean the fridge, but double check all equipment! Could be anything from an airlock/stopper to piece of racking equipment. Do you keep these labeled and separate? I label my brett/sour cold side equipment and keep them in a different area of my brewhouse.

 

[suitbrewing]

It's really a game of elimination at this point so amp up your cleaning and sanitizing game. I'd make a 5 gallon batch of cleaner, rinse water and star San and toss everything in. Then clean the chamber and fermentors with a fresh batch of cleaner, rinse and sani. If you can afford it replace all soft plastic gear as a last resort.

Don't forget to check your boil kettle valve. It can get gummy with wort and then get baked on inside from the heat. You cant sanitize something that still dirty. Look at your chiller as well, putting an immersion chiller in the boil kettle for the last ten min should be enough but you never know as not 100 % of the coil gets submerged. Yes the Hot wort should kill or pasteurize but I've seen it happen from time to time. Basically you need to consider that everything after the boil ( including your kettle valve) can be the source of the problem.

Don't fret you'll find it and be able to brew clean beers again.

Many thanks for taking the time to share all this.

I assume you mean 5 gallon of each solution (cleaner, Rinse, sanitizer) so as to put all the equipment that cause me concern through a step by step process (clean, rinse, sanitize)?! Or do you mean mixing up the cleaner and the rinsed??

I should also put through the process the kegs/couplers and taps i used to dispense this beers and to install fresh draft lines.

Could be the boil kettle valve. I will take it apart and clean it.

One thing that comes to mind is that during both brews I had some leaking from the immersion chiller (where the copper connects with my vinyl tubing) witch resulted into getting a bit of us-sanitized water into the wort! Could be that!!

 

[Dcpcooks]

Yep 5 gallons of each. It's pretty much what I do every brew day. I grab three buckets and make my PBW bucket, rinse bucket and sani bucket. Then I can just move stuff through like an assembly line.

If you had a small leak and you had some bugs on the chiller it could have washed the gunk into the kettle and once it got below 110ish degrees it could be a place for bugs to take hold. The chiller is a potential place for contamination and transfer, more so with a plate or counter flow chiller. Most times a boil will kill everything but if your coils are taller than the batch in the kettle it's possible.

I'd clean the kegs and lines in the same 3 step manner if you've run the soured beer through them.

 

[Calder]

You are somehow cross contaminating. i brew with both and other wild bugs and have yet to have cross contamination after several years.

All plastic tubing should be dedicated to normal or wild yeast. It is tough to get clean .... includes autosiphons, bottling wands, airlocks and corks, etc. Even testing equipment.

For your spidel, I would fill with a mild bleach solution for a week. A few tablespoons of beach in 5 gallons is all you need. Cold water (hot drives off bleach). Rinse with a small amount of hot water several times to get the bleach out. Rinsing with cold water will leave a film of bleach.

 

[suitbrewing]

Reporting my progress, I bought three large plastic containers from IKEA, some PBW and more Star San.

The plan is to clean and disinfect everything affected (2 Kegs, 2 fermentors, couplers, keezer taps, all fermentor accessories, the aeration kit, the kettle tap, the hop spiders, the wort chiller, the autosiphon, all the seals etc).

A few questions if I may since I have not worked with PBW in the past

- how long should the soak in PBW be for any item? (I understand that I am working under some time pressure as I need to finish everything before the solution goes below 130F)
- I understand that the rinse water should be warm as well?
- Does anyone know whether the silicone tubing can be disinfected?

 

[Dcpcooks]

In your case the longer the better for the PBW. It's ok if it drops below 130. If I'm doing a deep clean I have left it overnight. A hot rinse is a good idea.

You can boil the silicone for 10 min and sanitize. You may just want to boil in your kettle and recirculate it all if you have a pump.

I usually just get a big batch of hot PBW and soak all hoses in it. The key is to make sure you get it completely submerged with no air pockets

 

[suitbrewing]

I can overnight all the bits and pieces but not the fermentors and kegs as I have 4 pieces to go through!

I have also realised that I will need at least 10gallons to be able to fully submerge the fermentors and kegs. See pics

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5b1nV7On7GDWi10TUhWMlpJdlU/view?usp=drivesdk


https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5b1nV7On7GDY2N5LXE2eWhQUVE/view?usp=drivesdk

Having read the instructions I am considering 2oz PBW per gallon of water.

 

[Dcpcooks]

I don't think you need to submerge the big stuff just fill them up to the top. 2 oz in hot water will work great.

 

[suitbrewing]

Greetings to all!

I went ahead and did the pbw soak yesterday which went very well for the most part. I did a 10 gal 18oz pbw solution and put everything through a15m-30m soak.

I put the copper immersion chiller which developed a bit of a bluesh hue (no chipping). See pics

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5b1nV7On7GDTnRZdldlc1dsRXc/view?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5b1nV7On7GDRE9GdXdBNS04aGc/view?usp=drivesdk

From researching a bit on the web i realise that it would be ideal if i get rid of it before i use the chiller again. Does anyone have a practical way of doing this?? Would a vinegar solution boil solve the problem or create the conditions for more oxidation??


Finally I left the star san bath for the brew day ( as we usually do). Does this make sense or should i proceed with star san bath now (to be repeated on brew day) so as to have better chances of getting rid of any infection?

 

[Dcpcooks]

Greetings to all!

I went ahead and did the pbw soak yesterday which went very well for the most part. I did a 10 gal 18oz pbw solution and put everything through a15m-30m soak.

I put the copper immersion chiller which developed a bit of a bluesh hue (no chipping). See pics

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5b1nV7On7GDTnRZdldlc1dsRXc/view?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5b1nV7On7GDRE9GdXdBNS04aGc/view?usp=drivesdk

From researching a bit on the web i realise that it would be ideal if i get rid of it before i use the chiller again. Does anyone have a practical way of doing this?? Would a vinegar solution boil solve the problem or create the conditions for more oxidation??


Finally I left the star san bath for the brew day ( as we usually do). Does this make sense or should i proceed with star san bath now (to be repeated on brew day) so as to have better chances of getting rid of any infection?

Star San should pull the color off. It's acidic.

I'd sanitize it all now and again on brew day. 1 extra oz of star San is cheaper than ingredients!

 

[suitbrewing]

Boiled the chiller in vinegar solution and then bathed in star san and it looks like new!

I also put everything through star san.

Cheers on the good advice!

I will brew in a few days so we will soon find out if I elliminated everything!