Brau 120V 20A or High Gravity EBC-LT 120V? Help!!

[Tedyfinger]

I am about to take the plunge and order one of this systems, but I am having a hard time deciding since I don't have any experience with PID controllers. The system I am putting together is a 6 gallon pot, 2000 watts, 120V element, and no pump (at least for now). Prices are identical, the analog control on the high gravity seems like a nice feature to have, but then the timers and alarms on the Brau look like a good idea too. The high gravity guys have a LIFETIME warranty on the thing, you can't beat that. The Brau is "sexy". What do you guys think?

http://www.highgravitybrew.com/store/pc/EBC-LT-120V-with-Infinite-Power-Control-158p4653.htm


http://brausupply.com/collections/e...oducts/brau-20a-120v-electric-brew-controller

 

[augiedoggy]

The analog pwm control knob is kinda redundant... The pid has manual pwm control built in to control the boil... you set it to you normal boil set point and forget it once you reach your boil. actually its superior to the knob because you can get consistent boil off rates with a specific set point. this allows you to dial in your recipes...
Ill throw a couple more prospects you may want to consider,

http://www.jaggerbushbrewing.com/DIGITAL-CONTROL_c_15.html

http://www.brumatic.com/

the alarm is nice to have if you want to let the pid raise the temp to say 208 degrees and stop before a boilover would occur so you can babysit it after that until your past the point of a boilover.

 

[Tedyfinger]

Hey Thanks, that jagger bush brewing controllers for $200 looks good, I will do a bit of research on it.

 

[bobbytuck]

I have the High Grav system. Love it. This is my second electric system from High Grav (first was a 3-vessel HERMS, 240V).

Anyway, the control knob I've found is useful to more precisely control the mash. There's no overshoot if you ramp up knob all the way to get to the mash temp, turn it down slightly to maintain a solid 150F (or whatever) -- and then ramp it up again to either mash out go directly to the boil.

The High Grav control panel is built like a rock, too. It feels great -- nothing cheap about it. Easily brings 7+ gallons of wort to a boil (does about 2 degrees per minute) with the Boil Coil.

Great, great system. Highly recommended. Plus, Dave from High Grav is a pleasure to deal with. If there are any issues, he'll make it right. I had my old controller for almost two years when one brew day (after about 30+ outdoor brews) it fizzled out. All it took was a call to Dave and a quick shipment back, and I was back in business within 3 or 4 days. I paid for shipping back to High Grav -- but he replaced my unit with a brand new one and paid for shipping back to me. Really, really happy.

 

[Tedyfinger]

Yeah, that lifetime warranty sure is a great point in their favor

 

[TexasWine]

I own a brausupply system with the 15 amp controller. Couldn't be happier. And same story as bobbytuck, my controller got wonky one day. Steven, the owner, worked with me on the troubleshooting and eventually just sent me a new controller, even before I had returned the wonky one to him.

And I really, really like the aluminum casing it is built around.

 

[Tedyfinger]

Thanks for the comments, it seems that these things do break! and that is when a solid warranty comes into play. I really like how the 20A Brau is constructed, I just wish Steven could offer a couple more years of warranty, instead of just one. I don't pretend to have these controllers last a lifetime, but peace of mind for a couple of years does not hurt either.

 

[bobbytuck]

The other thing to think about is the heating element.

One reason I opted for the High Grav over the Brau was the Blichmann Boil Coil. It's really nice -- low density, max wattage for 120V -- and can heat anywhere from 7 to 9 gallons at about 2 degrees a minute. Plus, the Coil has a big, huge plug where it disengages from the kettle. I like this a lot -- taking the plug out so I can wash and clean and not have a cord hanging down. And I know if anything happens to the coil, I'll either deal with Dave at High Grav or right with Blichmann (who, IMHO, are great to deal with).

 

[augiedoggy]

Thanks for the comments, it seems that these things do break! and that is when a solid warranty comes into play. I really like how the 20A Brau is constructed, I just wish Steven could offer a couple more years of warranty, instead of just one. I don't pretend to have these controllers last a lifetime, but peace of mind for a couple of years does not hurt either.

Well the more complicated the system the more that can go wrong... thankfully it requires no special skills to swap out a bad pid, contactor or ssr in most panels if they are not epoxied in permenently.

The high gravity ones started out with some issues with things like speaker wire used for power cable and and the components were (and still are as far as I know)SEE BELOW are installed with epoxy so its more or less a disposable item (they are made with about $130 in hardware glued into a $20 enclosure from the home depot)

Using the glue makes it much easier for them to throw these things together in a couple of hrs increasing profits. So in the long run because they really dont fail often, it makes better financial sense for high gravity to just support and replace them if there is any issue rather than see threads pop up where owners took it somewhere to be repaired only to be told it was cheaply made with the components glued in and they cant or wont repair it.. Especially on the older ones where an electrician might take one look and refuse to touch it because of the code violations in its construction...

To be fair HG units have been improved on greatly since they first came out but personally I think they are overpriced compared to other options once you break them down.

***EDIT*** I stand corrected! the HG panels are no longer glued together according to the manufacturer as will be pointed it later in this thread!

 

[Tombsy]

To be fair HG units have been improved on greatly since they first came out but personally I think they are overpriced compared to other options once you break them down.

What are some other options?

 

[augiedoggy]

What are some other options?

Well there are a bunch listed here... if you need someone to bundle a pot and pump with the control panel many places with offer complete boxed setups too like Colorado or brewboss and the like... I just feel High gravity has High prices and when you break them down their systems are more generically made with the cheaper components more so than the other systems which sell for less.

They are improving... The Boil coil for example is a more recent Upgrade I wasnt even aware they sold with their setups... An ULWD ripple element works just as well but the boil coil have a nice disconnect feature like an electric griddle or smoker element. if you move your kettles around a lot or for cleaning this is nice to have.

 

[Cregar]

I am also looking at the high gravity 120v system, I check and my breaker is 20amps.

Would have any problems with it in my apartment.

Thanks

 

[inkbird]

Is it popular for over 20A controller?

 

[augiedoggy]

Is it popular for over 20A controller?

YES, a 20a 120v controller is needed to power a 2000w heating element for electric brewing systems, If you guys were to develop a 25A 220v pid controlled device they would be a popular seller too since that is more common for electric brewing and commercial CE or UL versions dont exist at all that im aware of...

 

[joebob296]

The high gravity ones started out with some issues with things like speaker wire used for power cable and and the components were (and still are as far as I know) are installed with epoxy so its more or less a disposable item (they are made with about $130 in hardware glued into a $20 enclosure from the home depot)

Do you not remember Dave's post to which you responded? He clearly stated that they haven't used epoxy in years....stop spreading false information.

This is Dave from High Gravity. I don't post much, in fact I had to reset my password to login.


We have always let our customers speak about their own experience with us and our products. A happy customer might tell a friend or two. An unhappy one will tell the world.



We build controllers for people that don't want to build their own. We have been building controllers for a decade, and we are always improving them.



We take care of everything we build as long as you own it. If you have a nine year old controller and have a problem, all you have to do is send it to me. We'll repair it and send it right back.



We have always favored analog power control for the kettle vs manual control mode on a PID using up/down arrows. All of our controllers feature this, and there was a time (until around 5 years ago) when we built our own power control module with discrete components (TRIAC based with a DIAC trigger for symmetrical firing). We did use a short run of 10 gauge speaker wire during part of this period because it was much easier to solder to the board. These days we use a 40A SSVR for the 240V controllers, and a 25A SSVR for the 120V controllers.



Some of our controllers also have mechanical relays (we have not glued them in for several years). In some models these relays are used to switch the other hot leg off when the heat is switched off to ensure that the receptacle is completely de-energized when the heat switch is off. Some controllers out there only switch one of the hot legs. The EBC III-D uses a 30A double-pole relay to switch the HLT heat on/off, and a 25A relay for the Pump1 output in case you want to plug a 120V RIMS heating element in instead. Mechanical relays are used where switching is infrequent, and normally last for many years. If one fails we replace it.



The cost of the components for any of our controllers vs the retail price of the finished unit is in line with typical retail store pricing, and we still have to put them together. You can save money if you want to build it yourself, and your time is free. You may just enjoy designing/building it.



There are now many choices available for those who would rather not build their own controller. We know a lot of the guys putting these together, and we all have our own approach. You should take a look at all of them and decide what fits you best.

And this is your reply.

Thank you for being honest and setting the record straight. Its good to here they have been improved on and the issues addressed.

 

[augiedoggy]

Do you not remember Dave's post to which you responded? He clearly stated that they haven't used epoxy in years....stop spreading false information.



And this is your reply.

Yes I remember that quite well. Apparently Not well enough to remember he stated they stopped gluing their components in though.. If I had, I honestly would have mentioned they stopped gluing them together just as I mentioned they stopped using non rated speaker wire for ac power creating a possible fire hazard found on thier older products sold for how long? They also sold them with no plug attached with a big Disclaimer that their panels were sold as DIY projects and they take no responsibility for any problems that make occur due to the use of them... Does any of the other manufacturers not stand behind their products this way?

It doesnt change the fact that the poor construction they started out with was likely the reason for the warranty... The fact is they started out making them very poorly and slowly improved on them. The shortcuts they took were just as wrong then as they are now especially for the prices they sold them for.... Just because he has improved the build quality now, it somehow makes them a great upstanding company to deal with? There are still how many poorly made panels out there representing their name that were sold at very high prices by them for how long? We dont know... just as we dont know how long he meant by them not being glued for "years" ... I didnt even think High gravity sold these unit for more than a few years until Dave stated comments about a change they made 5 years ago.

I heard Tom Hargrave is has improved his business practices with the control panels he sells on amazon now too But I still would never deal with him because he scammed a lot of customers out of their money in the past and that first impression reflects on the kind of person he is to me.

A lot of the comments I have made are my opinion as a person who HAS built my own electric panel and has done a lot of homework on the components and pricing available, I do not think these are a good value regardless of how much HG has cleaned up their act in making them.... They still have a much higher mark up than any other control panel or system I have broke down in manufacturing and development costs.
If you compare what I had to say about them before the thread where the comments you linked were made to now you will see that I had refrained from really voicing much of my distaste in this thread until you pointed out my mistake as intentionally spreading lies..

 

[jeffmeh]

Augie, you are certainly entitled to voice your opinion, but comparing HG to Hargrave is way out of line. You may not approve of the quality or price of HGs panels, but they deliver said panels to willing buyers. Hargrave took money and did not deliver product, constituting fraud.

 

[bobbytuck]

Well I had an old HG unit and just bought a new one. The construction is night and day, but the old one worked great. One minor issue and Dave replaced the old white controller with a brand new one within 72 hours and that was about 4 years ago. Used it for 100+ brews.

I ordered a brand new system last month and Dave delivered everything in 3 days.

Very happy. If I ever get another system, it's going to be from high gravity. No question.

 

[inkbird]

YES, a 20a 120v controller is needed to power a 2000w heating element for electric brewing systems, If you guys were to develop a 25A 220v pid controlled device they would be a popular seller too since that is more common for electric brewing and commercial CE or UL versions dont exist at all that im aware of...

Actually we have that PID controller. Our ITC-100VH PID controller is wide voltage range(100 - 240V). It can connect 25A, 40A, 60A/80A SSR. It can do what you need. CE/FCC have passed.

 

[inkbird]

YES, a 20a 120v controller is needed to power a 2000w heating element for electric brewing systems, If you guys were to develop a 25A 220v pid controlled device they would be a popular seller too since that is more common for electric brewing and commercial CE or UL versions dont exist at all that im aware of...

It seems that more people prefer the ON/OFF temperature controller for brewing.

 

[pretzelb]

Do you not remember Dave's post to which you responded? He clearly stated that they haven't used epoxy in years....stop spreading false information.

This personal anti HG crusade is still going on? I had to mute it a while ago. One person made one complaint about a panel made probably 9 years ago and it is still used as a price comparison to panels made today. I've never seen such a vendetta before even after a response was heard.

 

[augiedoggy]

Augie, you are certainly entitled to voice your opinion, but comparing HG to Hargrave is way out of line. You may not approve of the quality or price of HGs panels, but they deliver said panels to willing buyers. Hargrave took money and did not deliver product, constituting fraud.

Good point, let me try to explain. My comparison was about the fact that they both seemed to learn from their mistakes today and are both still operating supposedly offering a superior product/service.... Yet since they both showed poor character in their earlier dealings, Tom with filing bankruptcy and HG with the shoddy workmanship for such an extensively marked up and sold item. For that reason I would steer clear of them both myself. Everyone agrees that Tom hargrave commited fraud, but Did HG not now what they were building and that the shortcuts they were taking did not meet code? Seriously if you guys thing that your being naive. Honestly the fact that even then, they charged such a premium for that product makes it worse.

Warranty or not if the panel caused a fire, HG had a big disclaimer on their website stating they would take no responsibility for their panels and how they are used! Thats not exactly my idea of "standing behind their product"

 

[augiedoggy]

This personal anti HG crusade is still going on? I had to mute it a while ago. One person made one complaint about a panel made probably 9 years ago and it is still used as a price comparison to panels made today. I've never seen such a vendetta before even after a response was heard.

Go back and reread my original post in this thread. there is no Vendetta as you guys like to believe there is, I have no relationship with HG good or bad which makes me less biased then most of the customers commenting if anything. Yes I made a mistake in thinking he still glued them together,and my original comment indicated I didnt know for sure about that. Everything else I said was true and helpful to someone trying to make a choice so whats the problem? how is more information good or bad, harmful...

Actually since I see no screw holes in the enclosure I am curios how he is attaching everything into the plastic enclosure? I also went on to say he had improved on them greatly as well as the systems they offer by offering better features such as the boilcoil. But his lifetime warranty was started when his panels were more questionable and that likely had something to do with why he implemented it. if someone took one of his early panels to an electrician or a shop they would likely refuse to work on it.

 

[steveoatley]

Plus, Dave from High Grav is a pleasure to deal with. If there are any issues, he'll make it right.......

Plus One !!! on Dave !

Dave has answered every question i have posted to him - with in a day
( I have not made my purchase yet - waiting for that X-Mas bonus )

There are haters out there - of each system - don't listen to that crap
( haters gonna hate, have some ax to grind )

Listen to the Owners, who have USED the product.
( i can't wait to get mine ! )

Dave has been a huge help to me in putting together my system
Plus one for Customer Service !

Steve

 

[steveoatley]

WOOO WHOOO

Price Cut !!

http://www.highgravitybrew.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=3858

the controller i want was just cut $100 !!!

I may be able to get mine before X-mas now !!!


S

 

[johnsant]

Come on augiedoggy that was then, this is NOW. Things always seem to get better with time same with manufacturing look at all the products that improve with time and input from the customer base. Give High Gravity a break and quit selling false hoods that don't exsist anymore. My High Gravity system will be purchased next week I'll be getting mine right from the source when I walk into my LHBS. Dave is a supper cool guy!

 

[tmendick]

Let's all just whip it out compare size and be done with this. Augie will have his stance and there are plenty of people on his side, but there are plenty of people that think High Gravity is awesome. Their quality now is undeniably better than it was, but to augie's point it is overpriced if you are willing to put the work in yourself.

 

[pretzelb]

Let's all just whip it out compare size and be done with this. Augie will have his stance and there are plenty of people on his side, but there are plenty of people that think High Gravity is awesome. Their quality now is undeniably better than it was, but to augie's point it is overpriced if you are willing to put the work in yourself.

Every pre-built panel you buy is overpriced if you are willing to put in the work. Pointing that out is obvious but hardly an issue. You see it all the time on nearly every piece of equipment you can buy for this hobby. For example, it is almost automatic if you try and discuss a Blichmann or Stout kettle.

What is unusual is constantly pointing that price issue for a single company in the face of those who are happy customers of that company. It is even more unusual to do it so much that it sounds like you not only want to halt future purchases from the company, but you want to make existing customers feel unhappy about their purchase. To make it even more bizarre in this case, it was a product that was not even owned by the person making the negative comments nor had they even had dealings with the company.

I've never liked politics but I can honestly say this is the one few times the phrase "pushing your own agenda" has ever made perfect sense to me. The fact I'm still seeing this even with the ignore function tells me I'm not alone.

Cheers.

 

[johnsant]

The OP was asking about what systems and what brewers could say about them. If you have NEVER EVER owned the item then let the ones that have make the comments. I heard this or he said that dose not qualify you as knowing the item.

 

[augiedoggy]

ok I get everyones point, Let try to keep it to comparing cost and features..

What this High gravity panel http://www.highgravitybrew.com/store/pc/EBC-SV-with-Infinite-Power-Control-272p3986.htm does for$395 (normally $495 but on sale right now) + shipping



That say this http://www.jaggerbushbrewing.com/BBR-10_p_63.html one doesn't for $289 with free shipping

When you compare High gravitys normal prices your looking at about $530 for the same exact thing sold by others for under $300 and the $300 panel is actually in a metal enclosure instead of this $22 home depot junction box http://www.homedepot.com/p/Carlon-8-in-x-4-in-Junction-Box-E989N-CAR/100404099

There is more work involved in cutting and mounting in a steel enclosure, I used the same brand of plastic junction box for my build because its the cheapest and easiest alternative I could find. Both these panels are relatively simple with about $150 in parts and have the same pid and all the same functionality but the cheaper box has a better quality pump switch and an indicator light instead of the $50 switch (I have bought some myself) so why does High gravity charge almost twice as much since for all practical reasons it was the cheaper made box?

This is why I feel there are simply smarter options out there...

 

[joebob296]

ok I get everyones point, Let try to keep it to comparing cost and features..

What this High gravity panel http://www.highgravitybrew.com/store/pc/EBC-SV-with-Infinite-Power-Control-272p3986.htm does for$395 (normally $495 but on sale right now) + shipping



That say this http://www.jaggerbushbrewing.com/BBR-10_p_63.html one doesn't for $289 with free shipping

When you compare High gravitys normal prices your looking at about $530 for the same exact thing sold by others for under $300 and the $300 panel is actually in a metal enclosure instead of this $22 home depot junction box http://www.homedepot.com/p/Carlon-8-in-x-4-in-Junction-Box-E989N-CAR/100404099

There is more work involved in cutting and mounting in a steel enclosure, I used the same brand of plastic junction box for my build because its the cheapest and easiest alternative I could find. Both these panels are relatively simple with about $150 in parts and have the same pid and all the same functionality but the cheaper box has a better quality pump switch and an indicator light instead of the $50 switch (I have bought some myself) so why does High gravity charge almost twice as much since for all practical reasons it was the cheaper made box?

This is why I feel there are simply smarter options out there...

Compare warranties on the two. One comes with a lifetime warranty(HG) and I could not a lifetime warranty from jaggerbush. I wouldn't mind paying extra for the security of knowing that I can get a replacement at any time.

 

[augiedoggy]

Compare warranties on the two. One comes with a lifetime warranty(HG) and I could not a lifetime warranty from jaggerbush. I wouldn't mind paying extra for the security of knowing that I can get a replacement at any time.

Ok The components in these two panels are so cheap and the likely hood of failures is fairly low(The $45 pid is the more expensive component). Honestly the most likely failure would be the $10 SSR which anyone who owns a screwdriver with no skills but the ability to read the labeled terminals needed can replace.

If dave charges $25 extra for every panel he sold to cover the warranty statistically he would still come out ahead..
I fail to see how paying almost double for the inferior product just to have a warranty most will never use, and many may not even want since it will hamper their excuse to replace the panel in a couple years when they decide they want something newer or different justifies an 80% up front price increase. At these prices, its really more like buying two control panels and having them give you the second one you paid for if there actually is an issue than a warranty!

 

[bobbytuck]

At these prices, its really more like buying two control panels and having them give you the second one you paid for if there actually is an issue than a warranty!

Man, you got some axe to grind.

Have you ever brewed with a HG system? Have you bought one? Have you seen one in person?

If not -- then there's nothing else to say.

HG rocks. Dave rocks.

Boom.

 

[pretzelb]

Compare warranties on the two. One comes with a lifetime warranty(HG) and I could not a lifetime warranty from jaggerbush. I wouldn't mind paying extra for the security of knowing that I can get a replacement at any time.

I think HG has the experience over JaggerBush unless JaggerBush has 9+ years of making panels. HG also has a real brick and mortar store front going for it. I'd also give the advantage to HG for web site design and a better looking panel. Confidence and appearance have a price for most. And as you point out, a warranty can help instill confidence.

Others are willing to take risks to save money and good for them. I bet JaggerBush makes perfectly fine products. I wish both HG and JaggerBush the best of luck in their business and hope customers of both are nothing but happy. I do question anyone who tries to bad mouth either company or ridicule happy customers of either especially when they had no experience with either. For anyone who does that they one thing I can say is:

Just because you can't understand why someone is happy is no reason to try and make them understand why you think they should be miserable.

 

[augiedoggy]

Man, you got some axe to grind.

Have you ever brewed with a HG system? Have you bought one? Have you seen one in person?

If not -- then there's nothing else to say.

HG rocks. Dave rocks.

Boom.

I dont need to...its pretty run of the mill, I have all the same functionality x3 and much more in the panel I made myself for $300...

 

[bobbytuck]

I dont need to... I have all the same functionality x3 and much more in the panel I made myself for $300...

Great.

But I suspect HG's system is better -- and has a better warranty than some budget build you cobble together and claim out of nowhere is 3x better. What does that even mean?

I've owned two HG systems over the past 5 years. There are no issues.

They work great.

They brew great.

And Dave stands behind his warranty. What else is there to say?

Nothing.

This is a weird thread. You're criticizing something you've never seen, much less tried. It's weird. What's the deal? Is it some pride thing? You can't bear to see someone successfully selling a 120V system for $395? Or a 240V system? A system you've never owned, never brewed with.

Makes perfect sense.

 

[augiedoggy]

Great.

But I suspect HG's system is better -- and has a better warranty than some budget build you cobble together and claim out of nowhere is 3x better. What does that even mean?

I've owned two HG systems over the past 5 years. There are no issues.

They work great.

They brew great.

And Dave stands behind his warranty. What else is there to say?

Nothing.

This is a weird thread. You're criticizing something you've never seen, much less tried. It's weird. What's the deal? It's a pride thing, I suspect.Is it some pride thing? You can't bear to see someone successfully selling a 120V system for $395? Does it hurt your pride? You don't like the color of the control panels? You think the switches are the wrong brand? Does it stick in your craw that someone can do it -- and sell -- and have customers that love it?

It is a budget Build! thats my point... I expect you you defend your choice but You have no idea what your talking about here. there are lots of other brand being sold here and I really only have an issue with these because they are the lowest budget built commercially sold panel for the highest prices compared to those.

 

[bobbytuck]

because they are the lowest budget built commercially sold panel for the highest prices compared to those.

How do you even know this? You have no idea. You're going by something you decided 5 years ago -- and only decided it because you read it on a forum.

Are you going by the price alone? Folks like me who *do* know this -- and who have looked at the other builds and *used* other builds -- decided to go with HG because of Dave and his warranty.

 

[augiedoggy]

How do you even know this? You have no idea.

Are you going by the price alone? Folks like me who *do* know this -- and who have looked at the other builds -- decided to go with HG because of Dave and his warranty.

That's all that matters.

Again -- you're criticizing something you've *never* seen or *never* used. How does this even make sense?

Because I broke down the cost of the components! I have most of the stuff that in that panel laying around leftover from the 2 that I built. The case is $22 the pid is $45 the pump switch is 50 cents the ssr is $10 the heatsink is $4 and ssvr and potentiometer is $20 together and the contractor is $10 another $50 for the plug and outlets and so on and those are retail prices not he bulk wholesale prices.

That fine that you are now saying you would have still paid so much for the warranty but I would bet many wouldnt and this comparison helps those who dont care about something they wont need... again, its a simple device and any malfunctioning component can be swapped in under 15 minutes with a screwdriver... hardly the type of tech that requires a $240 warranty.

 

[joebob296]

It is a budget Build! thats my point... I expect you you defend your choice but You have no idea what your talking about here. there are lots of other brand being sold here and I really only have an issue with these because they are the lowest budget built commercially sold panel for the highest prices compared to those.

How do you know it's a budget build? You thought the components were still epoxied on...that shows how much you actually know about the construction of the panel. You don't know what your talking about...I know you used the cheap fotek SSR's in your build from another thread you posted on. So your panel was so cheap because you used budget components.

Everyone here knows you have a predisposition to hate HG. Your not even stating facts here, nothing that you have posted has been constructive to the conversation. Your portraying your opinion as fact; which less face it...is completely biased on a product you have never touched, used, or even seen the inside of.

End rant.