Brainstorming a dark raspberry sour (stout?)

[TravelingLight]

I'm still new to homebrewing. But hell, I like a challenge and I like learning by fire.

I've never done a sour before. My brother is getting married in December and I'd like to do something special for his wedding. This is a perfect opportunity for me to do my first sour. I want to do a raspberry sour, but I want it dark. Either a sour stout (which may be more difficult than I want) or just something dark. It's a long story, but this goes back to this highly boozy, random concoction we used to buy and drink in high school from this old juke joint out in the country. It was undoubtedly some hillbilly wine or moonshine cut with fruit. It was a deep dark purple, and it was called Moontan Oil. Ergo, I want to make a Moontan Oil-inspired sour. Hence why I want it dark.

I want to keep this simple. At least as simple as possible. Therefore, I am thinking about doing a sour mash.

My other option I was thinking of was to brew the beer, ferment it out, then rack to secondary with bugs.

Ideally, I think this beer would be perfect aged in red wine barrels. So I'm thinking about some wine soaked oak as well?

Finally, regardless of how I decide to sour it, I've got to figure out the best way to incorporate the fruit. I've been reading a lot of conflicting information. Some people freeze and rack on top. Some people puree and rack on top.

Hoping to get the ball rolling on this so I can get a plan of action. Thoughts?

 

[Revvy]

This is the best thing I've ever heard on brewing sour beers. I was actually a guest for the podcast they recorded after this one, so I was there for the recording of this. I was scared of brewing sours before this, and I have one going now because he explained it so well.

One of his beers we tried was a sour stout it was awesome.

Brew Bubbas Radio Brewing Sour Beers episode.

 

[m00ps]

I just chucked frozen packaged fruit into a secondary and racked on top of it the few times I;ve done it. Added souring blend with the fruit. Definitely minimize secondary headspace, though not to the stupid degree I did.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=556361
I wouldnt sour mash it. I prefer the traditional long souring since the character evolves over time.

 

[Revvy]

I just chucked frozen packaged fruit into a secondary and racked on top of it the few times I;ve done it. Added souring blend with the fruit. Definitely minimize secondary headspace, though not to the stupid degree I did.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=556361
I wouldnt sour mash it. I prefer the traditional long souring since the character evolves over time.

Yeah, I'm about to face that same issue when I fruit my Flander's Red in the next week or so. I'm afraid I'm going to have a mess when it takes off again.

I agree I wouldn't sourmash it if you're pitching bugs....

If you were trying for something quick, a sour mash might work.... but a traditional sour would be better personally. Unfortunately his Ron's timeline in the podcast is about a year.... so you might be pushing. But other people might do quicker sours.

I think a sour cherry or raspberry chocolate stout might be awesome, I might have to do one someday... I do a dark chocolate raspberry Belgian stout that isn't soured, but with a lot of bitter chocolate it has it's own bitter thing going... might be interesting even doing THAT with a sour mash... HMMM... add to my to brew list.

 

[TxBigHops]

Posting to sub. Please keep up updated as to what you decide, and how it turns out. This sounds very yummy. I would add some dark chocolate with the raspberry.

 

[Revvy]

Here's the grainbill for the Chocolate Framboise Porter (forgot it was a porter) I made a couple years ago that was great. It might be a good start to sour... OR sourmash with. For the raspberry I just used a bottle of that Raspberry extract from the homebrewshop at kegging...It was tasty, but like I said it was very bitter from the chocolate.

8 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Ale Malt 2-Row (Briess) (3.5 SRM) Grain 1 67.9 %
2 lbs Munich (Dingemans) (5.5 SRM) Grain 2 16.0 %
1 lbs 4.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 3 10.0 %
10.1 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 4 5.0 %
2.1 oz Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM)
1.09 oz Motueka [7.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 20.8 IBUs
0.54 oz Motueka [7.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 5.2 IBUs
5.00 oz Unsweetened Cocoa Powder (Boil 10.0 mins) Spice 8 -

4.00 oz Cocao Nibs (Primary 2.0 weeks)

Can't remember what yeast I used, I think it was a brew day decision, I may have used Wyeast 1581-PC Belgian Stout Yeast.... Since this was supposed to be a "Belgian-Esque" beer.

There's a note in my beersmith that says, "Can add up to 3/4 of an ounce of lactose...." I can't recall if I did or not (I made this 3 years ago.)

One way to do this if NOT pitching bugs would be to maybe pull a couple quarts of wort aside before hopping, let it sour over night, and maybe boil it to steralize it and add it back to the fermenter the next day....

Obviously you could use real fruit...

 

[LBussy]

I made a choc raspberry stout MANY moons ago. Actually I tried a few different recipes. The unsweetened cocoa Revvy recommends seems in line with what I used (although I think I may have used a little more) but you didn't ask for chocolate. I can tell you that you need at least a pound of raspberries per gallon to have anything left after the fermentation. Racking on top of the raspberries after primary fermentation is a good way to go from the standpoint of preserving the aroma and flavor, but of course you are begging for an infection (maybe less of an issue with a sour).

Fresh fruit was frustrating for me so I wenta different direction on another brew. Instead of a raspberry extract (I just don't like those) I used ~6 oz cocoa and I ended up finishing with two tablespoons of Chambord in each bottle (one bottle for a 5 gallon batch more or less plus a taste for the brewer). This was an excellent choice it turned out.

 

[TravelingLight]

Lots of great info in this thread. Thanks for that.

I'm thinking about doing something with rye, maybe some wheat, roasted barley, then pitching 3209 (Oud Bruin Blend). Then racking that on top of some frozen raspberries.

Also thinking of some oak cubes. BUT...also thinking of soaking them in wine. Y'all ever do wine-soaked oak?

Based on some reading from Mike Tonsmiere, I think I can turn this beer around in 5-6 months.

 

[TravelingLight]

Thinking about blackberries now. Any real difference between raspberries and blackberries as far as refermentation goes, and flavors, etc?

 

[m00ps]

I like blackberries a lot more than raspberries. The flavor should be pretty similar, but the color of blackberries will be a lot more red/purple instead of the light pink youll get from raspberries

 

[Baja_Brewer]

I wonder if blackberries will have as strong a flavor as raspberries - not sure if they will be very distinct.

 

[TravelingLight]

I like blackberries a lot more than raspberries. The flavor should be pretty similar, but the color of blackberries will be a lot more red/purple instead of the light pink youll get from raspberries

Thanks brother. That's exactly what I want. Anything darker is what I am after. Moontan Oil.

 

[IslandLizard]

Make sure you like fermented blackberries. That flavor profile is very different from fresh ones. They're also very acidic.

For example I've never seen a Blackberry Lambic.

 

[TravelingLight]

Make sure you like fermented blackberries. That flavor profile is very different from fresh ones. They're also very acidic.

For example I've never seen a Blackberry Lambic.

Fair points. So what about raspberries?

 

[Revvy]

For example I've never seen a Blackberry Lambic.

Upland Blackberry Lambic

There was even a thread on making something similar, with some good tips about the acidity level of the beer here.

 

[TravelingLight]

Upland Blackberry Lambic

There was even a thread on making something similar, with some good tips about the acidity level of the beer here.

Thanks for that link, Revvy. I'm doing a DIPA this weekend (if the weather holds), but will be starting this sour as soon as a carboy opens up.

 

[Revvy]

Thanks for that link, Revvy. I'm doing a DIPA this weekend (if the weather holds), but will be starting this sour as soon as a carboy opens up.

I'm supposedly getting a ton of frozen raspberries from my friend tonight for my Flander's Red. It's past due time to add the fruit and cheesy hops.

 

[IslandLizard]

Fair points. So what about raspberries?

Oh, I didn't mean to steer you away from using blackberries, I think they deserve attention and experiment. I've been thinking about using them myself for quite a while. Just to find a suitable variety seems to be the trick. An orchard I go to has tons of them, but I didn't like their taste at the time.

We get mulberries here, and I've heard something similar applies to them, not making them a good choice for fruit beers. They're noted to have a very one-dimensional flavor profile, unlike say, raspberries. That doesn't mean we shouldn't use them. Maybe a blend with some other berry brings out the positives.

I only mentioned it, so you don't end up in December with a batch that's not quite what you had in mind.

Upland Blackberry Lambic

There was even a thread on making something similar, with some good tips about the acidity level of the beer here.

I meant used traditionally in authentic (fruit) Lambics. You see raspberry, sour cherry, peaches, but never blackberries. I know Belgium has blackberries ("bramen") so they must have experimented and used them. Either they're a hidden secret or not good enough to see the light of day.

Those reviews sorta speak for themselves. As a curiosity very acceptable, but I doubt anyone is really looking for them a second time.

Over the years we've had a couple sours that contained blackberries. From what I remember they were interesting, a bit earthy, funky, but not anything to write home about.

Hence the word of caution.

 

[LBussy]

The thing I like about raspberries is they are very unique in their flavor profile. They will get very high in your palate done right - unlike a lot of other berries. They do this no matter what beer carries them there.

 

[kadozen]

This is the best thing I've ever heard on brewing sour beers. I was actually a guest for the podcast they recorded after this one, so I was there for the recording of this. I was scared of brewing sours before this, and I have one going now because he explained it so well.

One of his beers we tried was a sour stout it was awesome.

Brew Bubbas Radio Brewing Sour Beers episode.

After listening to this, think I might give a sour a try. Just gotta get some glass.

 

[microbusbrewery]

I'd suggest raspberries or tart cherries rather than blackberries. I love the taste of fresh blackberries, but I've had to judge a lot of homebrew blackberry beers and most were not very good; actually I can only think of one that was good. So +1 what islandlizard said...the flavor profile tends to change quite a bit when fermented.

Tart cherries are good because they contribute quite a bit of acidity, so if the bugs haven't soured to your liking, you can pick up additional acidity from using them. For example, I have a petite saison I aged on tart cherries and it dropped the pH to 3.68; that's without adding any lactic acid bacteria.

As for base recipe, here's one I used that was an attempt to clone Crooked Stave's Nightmare on Brett. It's essentially a Baltic Porter-ish base. I wouldn't say it's an exact clone, but it's very similar. I used a house culture in secondary that's super aggressive, so it was soured within a few months. I think souring is going to be your biggest challenge given your relatively compressed timeline. I'm not a huge fan of kettle souring because I do think you lose some complexity, but that will be the safest route given you have a drop-dead date and can't just let it ride until it's ready. Speaking of Nightmare on Brett, I recently tried both the raspberry and tart cherry versions and they're both pretty delicious. Anyway, here's the recipe as I made it.

6.0 # Avangard Munich II
3.0 # Avangard Pilsner
1.0 # Bestmalz Chit Malt - This one can be hard to find but Jason Yester at Trinity Brewing swears by it for sour beers
0.5 # Briess Flaked Oats
0.5. # Dingemans Special B
0.5 # Weyermann Carafa Special II
0.25 # Crisp Pale Chocolate Malt
28g Aged Hops (60 min) - effectively ~ 0 IBUs so souring cultures can do their thing as quickly as possible
INISBC-913 Brett Barrel III (reportedly the same strain/strains of brett that Crooked Stave uses)
Wyeast Nutrient
House sour culture added in secondary (brett, lacto, and pedio cultures)
1.0 # D-180 Candi Syrup (rack beer onto syrup in secondary when pitching sour bugs)
Medium+ French Oak cubes in secondary

Mash at 156F for 60 min. Ferment at room temp.

P.S. This is for five gallons @82-ish% efficiency