Bourbon style Ice Beer at 30-40% ABV

[dlester]

Everyone, the only ruling on Beer concentration is the taxation and labeling for commercial breweries by TTB, nothing else. It doesn't apply to home brewing and in their words, not mine: "is not illegal to concentrate beer."

Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nnR4trUKVo

 

[LBussy]

Someone asked where my experience with these regulations lie; it is from reading, interpreting, and following regulations in the explosives area. It's not specifically applicable but it does give me a lot of practice with navigating the CFR, where to look for definitions of the words they use, and so on. One step above someone who has never had to read and comply with them previously. One step below those who have posted on here who have experience with a TTB license (and who have also advised that you are definitely not completely legal).

My acquaintance's woes are not germane to the specific subject here - you can do a Google search on terms like "ATF charges acquittal" and find many such cases. The point I was trying to share is that you can be "right" and still not really enjoy being right. If you are asking for a link because you think I may be lying in some way in order to prove my point, I invite you to ignore me and continue on, believing other things you read on the Internet.

TTB is basically in charge of when you are doing things right, the ATF when you are not. Your immediate risk is however from your local police department who will arrest you and THEN bring in the DOJ for prosecution. Even if that conversation "goes your way" you still got arrested. If someone slapping handcuffs on you and rifling through your things is fine with you as long as you are never indicted, cool. I don't have that sort of flexibility in my day.

The OP made up his mind that he's legal and he wants to do this. Great, doesn't make me feel different about myself. I want to make sure everyone knows that if nothing else there is *confusion* even among those who are there to enforce the regs - and that means you could still find yourself treated as an "alleged perpetrator" rather than someone who is exercising their rights.

Finally, someone posted in another thread quite convincingly and authoritatively that the creation of "ice beer" removed ice rather than removed alcohol so is a different process and therefore legal. The problem when you split hairs is there is another half of the hair. The process espoused here does remove alcohol from the product in that it is frozen and the ice remains yet the concentrate is removed. This uses heat (because there is no such thing as cold in physics) and it's impact on different fractions of the product. You may now want to argue what I have just said. I don't care. I won't have to argue it in court. If you want a chance to do that to tell us how smart you are then by all means let us know how it works out.

 

[LBussy]

Everyone, the only ruling on Beer concentration is the taxation and labeling for commercial breweries by TTB, nothing else. It doesn't apply to home brewing and in their words, not mine: "is not illegal to concentrate beer."

Right ... and the rest of the ruling says "so long as it is reconstituted."

 

[motobrewer]

Someone asked where my experience with these regulations lie; it is from reading, interpreting, and following regulations in the explosives area. It's not specifically applicable but it does give me a lot of practice with navigating the CFR, where to look for definitions of the words they use, and so on. One step above someone who has never had to read and comply with them previously. One step below those who have posted on here who have experience with a TTB license (and who have also advised that you are definitely not completely legal).

My acquaintance's woes are not germane to the specific subject here - you can do a Google search on terms like "ATF charges acquittal" and find many such cases. The point I was trying to share is that you can be "right" and still not really enjoy being right. If you are asking for a link because you think I may be lying in some way in order to prove my point, I invite you to ignore me and continue on, believing other things you read on the Internet.

TTB is basically in charge of when you are doing things right, the ATF when you are not. Your immediate risk is however from your local police department who will arrest you and THEN bring in the DOJ for prosecution. Even if that conversation "goes your way" you still got arrested. If someone slapping handcuffs on you and rifling through your things is fine with you as long as you are never indicted, cool. I don't have that sort of flexibility in my day.

The OP made up his mind that he's legal and he wants to do this. Great, doesn't make me feel different about myself. I want to make sure everyone knows that if nothing else there is *confusion* even among those who are there to enforce the regs - and that means you could still find yourself treated as an "alleged perpetrator" rather than someone who is exercising their rights.

Finally, someone posted in another thread quite convincingly and authoritatively that the creation of "ice beer" removed ice rather than removed alcohol so is a different process and therefore legal. The problem when you split hairs is there is another half of the hair. The process espoused here does remove alcohol from the product in that it is frozen and the ice remains yet the concentrate is removed. This uses heat (because there is no such thing as cold in physics) and it's impact on different fractions of the product. You may now want to argue what I have just said. I don't care. I won't have to argue it in court. If you want a chance to do that to tell us how smart you are then by all means let us know how it works out.

you, need a hobby.

 

[dlester]

Someone asked where my experience with these regulations lie; it is from reading, interpreting, and following regulations in the explosives area. It's not specifically applicable but it does give me a lot of practice with navigating the CFR, where to look for definitions of the words they use, and so on. One step above someone who has never had to read and comply with them previously. One step below those who have posted on here who have experience with a TTB license (and who have also advised that you are definitely not completely legal).

My acquaintance's woes are not germane to the specific subject here - you can do a Google search on terms like "ATF charges acquittal" and find many such cases. The point I was trying to share is that you can be "right" and still not really enjoy being right. If you are asking for a link because you think I may be lying in some way in order to prove my point, I invite you to ignore me and continue on, believing other things you read on the Internet.

TTB is basically in charge of when you are doing things right, the ATF when you are not. Your immediate risk is however from your local police department who will arrest you and THEN bring in the DOJ for prosecution. Even if that conversation "goes your way" you still got arrested. If someone slapping handcuffs on you and rifling through your things is fine with you as long as you are never indicted, cool. I don't have that sort of flexibility in my day.

The OP made up his mind that he's legal and he wants to do this. Great, doesn't make me feel different about myself. I want to make sure everyone knows that if nothing else there is *confusion* even among those who are there to enforce the regs - and that means you could still find yourself treated as an "alleged perpetrator" rather than someone who is exercising their rights.

Finally, someone posted in another thread quite convincingly and authoritatively that the creation of "ice beer" removed ice rather than removed alcohol so is a different process and therefore legal. The problem when you split hairs is there is another half of the hair. The process espoused here does remove alcohol from the product in that it is frozen and the ice remains yet the concentrate is removed. This uses heat (because there is no such thing as cold in physics) and it's impact on different fractions of the product. You may now want to argue what I have just said. I don't care. I won't have to argue it in court. If you want a chance to do that to tell us how smart you are then by all means let us know how it works out.

Wow, your in the wrong forum, see Drunken Ramblings and Mindless Mumbling.

 

[LBussy]

It's amusing the regularity to which a thoughtful discourse will devolve into name calling and impugning another's character on the Internet. Does that mean you were out of constructive things to say? Chances are you will never know if you or I were right or wrong - but not being wrong is not the same as being right.

Enjoy your ... product. I know I'll enjoy my own choices.

 

[PintoBean]

Everyone, the only ruling on Beer concentration is the taxation and labeling for commercial breweries by TTB, nothing else. It doesn't apply to home brewing and in their words, not mine: "is not illegal to concentrate beer."

Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nnR4trUKVo

You are held to the same TTB regulations at home as a commercial brewery. You are just given a break by the government that allows you brew up to 100 gallons/yr tax free (200 gallons if there's two adults over 21 in the household) as long as you don't sell it.

http://www.ttb.gov/beer/beer-faqs.shtml

http://us-code.vlex.com/vid/sec-exemptions-19210894

 

[butterpants]

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!

Say what again

 

[dlester]

It's amusing the regularity to which a thoughtful discourse will devolve into name calling and impugning another's character on the Internet. Does that mean you were out of constructive things to say? Chances are you will never know if you or I were right or wrong - but not being wrong is not the same as being right.

Enjoy your ... product. I know I'll enjoy my own choices.

Thank you for keeping your comments to a few sentences.

 

[dlester]

You are held to the same TTB regulations at home as a commercial brewery. You are just given a break by the government that allows you brew up to 100 gallons/yr tax free (200 gallons if there's two adults over 21 in the household) as long as you don't sell it.

http://www.ttb.gov/beer/beer-faqs.shtml

http://us-code.vlex.com/vid/sec-exemptions-19210894

I looked it up and it appears the maximum number of gallons allowed is a homebrewer using a commercial breweries equipment, or BOP (Brewery on Premises).

Thanks for the info.

 

[dlester]

You are held to the same TTB regulations at home as a commercial brewery. You are just given a break by the government that allows you brew up to 100 gallons/yr tax free (200 gallons if there's two adults over 21 in the household) as long as you don't sell it.

http://www.ttb.gov/beer/beer-faqs.shtml

http://us-code.vlex.com/vid/sec-exemptions-19210894

Reading further, I found that you are absolutely correct. An individual home brewer may produce beer as you noted "tax free." I assume you need to pay taxes above those amounts?

This is very good information. Thank you. :rockin:

 

[chri5]

Reading further, I found that you are absolutely correct. An individual home brewer may produce beer as you noted "tax free." I assume you need to pay taxes above those amounts?

This is very good information. Thank you. :rockin:

No you simply cannot (legally) do so without possible charges. Odds are low that would happen.

 

[chri5]

It's amusing the regularity to which a thoughtful discourse will devolve into name calling and impugning another's character on the Internet. Does that mean you were out of constructive things to say? Chances are you will never know if you or I were right or wrong - but not being wrong is not the same as being right.

Enjoy your ... product. I know I'll enjoy my own choices.

Agreed. No point to devolve into name calling.

 

[dlester]

Good idea to have some water with your booze anyway, I say. Reconstitute it in your stomach!

Really though, unless you are selling this or sharing it on a massive scale, you are not going to have feds at your door.

You can go to jail for hosting a poker game, too--but you don't, unless you're doing it for profit, or otherwise attracting bad attention, because it would be ludicrous. If you call an ATF tipline (or whatever they have) and report your neighbor for putting milk jugs full of cider in a snow drift, you'll be laughed off the line.

On the other hand, if your house looks like the Branch Davidian complex, maybe you should stay straight and narrow.

Funny! Your right and have a good view of life...It doesn't help that I live in a Davidian style complex, right? So far, best response.

 

[dlester]

It was as hot tasting as the original. I had a feeling it would be though. Concentrating a bad flavor can only make it worse right? Lol

Ive made numerous beers that abv that were drinkable in a few weeks. Looks like I need to tweak this some more. I still have 3+ gallons of this on the yeast. I'm moving it to secondary this week for aging, I'll try again with 2L of it when I think its ready for bottling.

I'll update this thread when I try it again.

Chris5, I re-read this post and was thinking that you most likely added white sugar and fermented it at room temperature? That, in my experience, is a recipe for "hot liquor" flavors. White sugar gives off harsh flavored alcohol in the first place, which even over time won't calm down.
Why not try concentrated corn syrup or beer extract? We all know that the best bourbon is made with corn and/or malted barley. Maybe that will calm down the harsh flavors. I think I'll try the same on my next Apple Cider

 

[butterpants]

White sugar gives off harsh flavored alcohol in the first place, which even over time won't calm down.

My Tripel begs to differ

 

[dlester]

My Tripel begs to differ

Your going to have to send me a large bottle of that Tripel

 

[MobyMD]

Great work on this. I am sure it tastes wonderful now but it will get better with time. I did this a while back. Made an imperial stout and then freeze concentrated it five times over. The problem is the process is very inefficient. I agree with you in a perfect world if you remove 75% of the water you would be left with around a 40% beer. However, it isn't a perfect world and the ice you removed had plenty of alcohol trapped in it. I tested the specific gravity of the ice that I removed each time and it was still in the 1.005-1.010 range. So definitely some of the sugar was coming with it but the alcohol too. That was why I did it over and over again. It was concentrating the alcohol for sure because the freezing took longer each time. The last freeze I had to use dry ice to even make it freeze. After all that work it still was not over 40% because it would not light with a match. That is where the term "proof" came from....it would light on fire at 40%. If yours does not light up it's not 40%. Even though it is not 40% it is definitely a higher ABV than before the freeze. It is a fun project and I plan on doing it again sometime.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/bi-polar-bear-30-abv-367718/

 

[dlester]

Great work on this. I am sure it tastes wonderful now but it will get better with time. I did this a while back...Even though it is not 40% it is definitely a higher ABV than before the freeze. It is a fun project and I plan on doing it again sometime.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/bi-polar-bear-30-abv-367718/

I read your recipe and believe this must have been good. I agree that it isn't as simple as I made it to figure the alcohol strength by volume alone. I also think that using the hydrometer is not as accurate either. You have a concentration of beer, adjuncts and the like, which interfere with the reading. I think that we can agree, however that it tastes pretty damn strong, right?

I think that this is such a big topic, that someone should make several batches, use your's and my theory on ABV and maybe we could come up with some formula that would be more accurate?

Until then,
Cheers

 

[fearwig]

Pretty sure you anyone with both a refractometer and a hydrometer can get absolute ABV with the right formula (you need both). I don't vouch for this calculator or anything but the science is sound enough, there should be some formula that makes it work.

http://www.brewheads.com/refract-getabw.php

I have seen this formula quoted on a board but I wasn't clear on the source:
ABV = [277.8851 - 277.4(SG) + 0.9956(Brix) + 0.00523(Brix2) + 0.000013(Brix3)] x (SG/0.79)

I don't have a refractometer, but that's a decent enough reason to get one by itself.

Now, if I were to apply that to this thread, I'd start by measuring the melted ice. (If you find out it's in the 4-5% abv range send it to Anheuser, they'll add caramel color and roll it out as their next craft beer.)

 

[motobrewer]

After all that work it still was not over 40% because it would not light with a match. That is where the term "proof" came from....it would light on fire at 40%. If yours does not light up it's not 40%. Even though it is not 40% it is definitely a higher ABV than before the freeze. It is a fun project and I plan on doing it again sometime.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/bi-polar-bear-30-abv-367718/

no. 40% abv will not ignite at room temperature. it has to be around 50% to auto-ignite at 75F. 40% will ignite around 80F.

 

[MobyMD]

no. 40% abv will not ignite at room temperature. it has to be around 50% to auto-ignite at 75F 40% will ignite around 80F.

Awesome! Well then I should warm up some of mine to those temps and see if and when it lights and that might get me closer to knowing what the ABV actually is. I only tried to light it when it was chilled. Thanks for the info.

 

[motobrewer]

sure.

proof does come from ignition. however it's a bit more complex, as english proof is a bit different from american proof in terms of abv. Rum was set to bet at "proof" if it was about 57%abv or higher. So 100 English proof was 57% abv. That would ensure if gunpowder ever got soaked in the stuff it would still ignite around 70F.

American proof is really just 2x percentage. so 100 proof is 50%.

 

[pdxal]

Pretty sure you anyone with both a refractometer and a hydrometer can get absolute ABV with the right formula (you need both). I don't vouch for this calculator or anything but the science is sound enough, there should be some formula that makes it work.

http://www.brewheads.com/refract-getabw.php

I have seen this formula quoted on a board but I wasn't clear on the source:
ABV = [277.8851 - 277.4(SG) + 0.9956(Brix) + 0.00523(Brix2) + 0.000013(Brix3)] x (SG/0.79)

I don't have a refractometer, but that's a decent enough reason to get one by itself.

Now, if I were to apply that to this thread, I'd start by measuring the melted ice. (If you find out it's in the 4-5% abv range send it to Anheuser, they'll add caramel color and roll it out as their next craft beer.)

I used that formula and my last brew turned out to be 47,000% alcohol!
I think I may need to check the math, though. :rockin:

 

[dlester]

Pretty sure you anyone with both a refractometer and a hydrometer can get absolute ABV with the right formula (you need both). I don't vouch for this calculator or anything but the science is sound enough, there should be some formula that makes it work.

http://www.brewheads.com/refract-getabw.php

I have seen this formula quoted on a board but I wasn't clear on the source:
ABV = [277.8851 - 277.4(SG) + 0.9956(Brix) + 0.00523(Brix2) + 0.000013(Brix3)] x (SG/0.79)

I don't have a refractometer, but that's a decent enough reason to get one by itself.

Now, if I were to apply that to this thread, I'd start by measuring the melted ice. (If you find out it's in the 4-5% abv range send it to Anheuser, they'll add caramel color and roll it out as their next craft beer.)

I put this through a complex calculator and got 512 ABV. I think there's something wrong with this formula. However, I'd like to see what you find in further investigations.




Cheers

 

[dlester]

no. 40% abv will not ignite at room temperature. it has to be around 50% to auto-ignite at 75F. 40% will ignite around 80F.

That's interesting. I didn't know that.

 

[fearwig]

I put this through a complex calculator and got 512 ABV. I think there's something wrong with this formula. However, I'd like to see what you find in further investigations.

Yeah, I don't have a refractometer but it occurred to me that if refractometers don't read alcohol solutions correctly and hydrometer readings do then you have an "in" for getting absolute ABV. I'm thinking about getting one, when I do I'll either do some more googling or work out the formula based on the density of alcohol.

It'll be nice to be able to do, given how lazy my notetaking gets on brew day.

 

[dlester]

My original math to calculate the ABV of a fractionally frozen beer was purposely made simple. However, some of you have figured that out. I decided to make it a bit more complicated with one more variable.

The ABV of the remaining liquid after freezing is directly related to the original gravity, and efficiency, of the fractional freezing. The efficiency unfortunately is an unknown for now. However, if you give it an estimated efficiency of 50%, then my original estimate is amended to 15% to 20% ABV. I thought it tasted stronger than that and would postulate an efficiency range of 50-75%, which would put the ABV between 20% and 30%. I think that based on the tasting and because we don't have equipment to measure efficiency, that my estimate of 50-75% seams reasonable on the basis that it is a range, not a hard number.

Here is my updated formula:
(original ABV/percentage of remaining volume of beer) x Efficiency
Text: original ABV divided by percentage of remaining volume of beer = A times Efficiency estimate.

Does anyone have any input? Good, bad or indifferent?


Cheers

 

[pdxal]

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-01/beersci-how-make-strong-beer-stronger

 

[dlester]

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-01/beersci-how-make-strong-beer-stronger

Thanks, love the article


Cheers