Bourbon style Ice Beer at 30-40% ABV

[chri5]

Allow me to be the first on this thread with a cheesy joke.
SWMBO walks into your brew area and says "what are you doing?"
You reply "Jacking my wee heavy."

Many lols

 

[dlester]

I have a small sample of a cider freezing right now actually to try this out.

My wife is enamored with the idea, and is pushing to start doing this more often with more beer styles.

I'm very interested to see how it comes out.

Chri5, did you try your Apple Jack yet? If not, please come back and share. If so, please detail the tasting.

Regards,
dlester

 

[chri5]

Chri5, did you try your Apple Jack yet? If not, please come back and share. If so, please detail the tasting.

Regards,
dlester

It was as hot tasting as the original. I had a feeling it would be though. Concentrating a bad flavor can only make it worse right? Lol

Ive made numerous beers that abv that were drinkable in a few weeks. Looks like I need to tweak this some more. I still have 3+ gallons of this on the yeast. I'm moving it to secondary this week for aging, I'll try again with 2L of it when I think its ready for bottling.

I'll update this thread when I try it again.

 

[dlester]

It was as hot tasting as the original. I had a feeling it would be though. Concentrating a bad flavor can only make it worse right? Lol

Ive made numerous beers that abv that were drinkable in a few weeks. Looks like I need to tweak this some more. I still have 3+ gallons of this on the yeast. I'm moving it to secondary this week for aging, I'll try again with 2L of it when I think its ready for bottling.

I'll update this thread when I try it again.

The drink is just young. You may have fermented it too hot. Give it a year. Pull out the bottle next xmas.

Cheers

 

[chri5]

The drink is just young. You may have fermented it too hot. Give it a year. Pull out the bottle next xmas.

Cheers

I had to try some tonight after replying.

It was very sour/tart. Reminded me of a sour beer, the good kind of sour beer.

I Plan on letting the non-concentrated stuff go for a while still. I have less than 1/4 cup of the concentrated version. It will be gone the next time I have a friend over.

 

[Paps]

I turned 500-ml of my cider recipe into 200-ml of apple-jack a ways back.
To my suprise the flavor was subdued instead of `in your face concentrated` like i was expecting it to be.It didn't burn going down at all.
Now the cider started close to 20% ABV before concentrating.
I'm not sure on the math but i think it was nearing bourbon range ABV.
I can see that becoming pretty deadly as a person could be very tempted to down an entire 5th of it in a sitting rather quikly.
Reminds me of a quote somebody on here has.
I don't remember exactly how it went but it was something like.
`a man on too much wisky might kill his wife and burn his house down but a man on apple jack could burn the whole town down."
or something to that effect.I can see that happening.

 

[syd138]

I've been freeze distilling for awhile. I got the idea after reading about how the pioneers would make Apple Jack. They would let barrels of apple cider sit out in the winter.. every morning they would go out with a spoon and scoop off the ice that had formed on top. What was eventually left was Apple Jack.

When ever I make apple wine, I usually take about 2 gallons of it, freeze it and make Apple Jack. Just put it in a water jug, freeze it, and turn it upside down over a pitcher.

Good stuff..

 

[dlester]

I turned 500-ml of my cider recipe into 200-ml of apple-jack a ways back.
To my suprise the flavor was subdued instead of `in your face concentrated` like i was expecting it to be.It didn't burn going down at all.
Now the cider started close to 20% ABV before concentrating.
I'm not sure on the math but i think it was nearing bourbon range ABV.
I can see that becoming pretty deadly as a person could be very tempted to down an entire 5th of it in a sitting rather quikly.
Reminds me of a quote somebody on here has.
I don't remember exactly how it went but it was something like.
`a man on too much wisky might kill his wife and burn his house down but a man on apple jack could burn the whole town down."
or something to that effect.I can see that happening.

No, I remember it as " a man on too much whiskey saw an alien craft crash near town. Later it became a sensation." LOL, kidding, I see where your from. Will have to visit sometime.

 

[SchillingBrewing]

This sounds like a great idea. I will have to give it a try soon. Is there any specific temperature that I need to freeze the liquid in question? Also how long is a good amount of time to let it sit upside down while it thaws?

 

[dlester]

I turned 500-ml of my cider recipe into 200-ml of apple-jack a ways back.
To my suprise the flavor was subdued instead of `in your face concentrated` like i was expecting it to be.It didn't burn going down at all.
Now the cider started close to 20% ABV before concentrating.
I'm not sure on the math but i think it was nearing bourbon range ABV.
I can see that becoming pretty deadly as a person could be very tempted to down an entire 5th of it in a sitting rather quikly.
Reminds me of a quote somebody on here has.
I don't remember exactly how it went but it was something like.
`a man on too much wisky might kill his wife and burn his house down but a man on apple jack could burn the whole town down."
or something to that effect.I can see that happening.

It looks like you got about 40% of the volume. At 20% original ABV, which is damn high, the concentrate should be about 50% ABV (assuming all alcohol was extracted). It must have been a good time.

I'm doing an apple cider around 8% with dark brown and white sugar. I'm adding acid for a nice bite. I should be able to concentrate it down to between 30-35% ABV.

 

[dlester]

This sounds like a great idea. I will have to give it a try soon. Is there any specific temperature that I need to freeze the liquid in question? Also how long is a good amount of time to let it sit upside down while it thaws?

I've been thinking about this: I wouldn't be concerned about temperature. Just make sure it is below freezing, or 28F. I would freeze until you get slush. If you freeze it hard, let it thaw until slush. Put it in a strainer for 30+ minutes, and you'll see the remaining ice turn lighter. I think this is the most accurate way of extracting the alcohol since there is a huge surface area.

If you try to extract from a solid block of ice, you run the risk of not extracting as efficiently since you have a limited surface area, forcing the liquids to travel through the ice block to a surface. And, extracting from a block of ice takes over an hour before the ice shows signs of extraction (light color). I'll have to experiment with this idea.

Good luck, I think you'll find this fun and in some cases, very tasty.

 

[insanim8er]

I watched videos on youtube... one a guy put the liquid in a plastic bottle, froze it solid, turned it over and let it drip out until the ice was white.

With the low freezing point of the alcohol, I feel like the slushy method would take forever... as soon as you start to strain it, it'll melt before all the ice is separated.

 

[pdxal]

Whoa, lots of misinformation after I posted the link to the chart on temperature vs. alcohol content possible.
Volume remaining after concentration does not determine alcohol content. You can't freeze concentrate a liquid/beer down to 50% alcohol without super low temperatures. Read up on how difficult it was for Brew Dog to make their super high alcohol beers, for example. 40% alcohol vodka won't even freeze in a conventional freezer to be able to concentrate out the water further, so how could you freeze concentrate your beer beyond that?:rockin:

 

[dlester]

I've been freeze distilling for awhile. I got the idea after reading about how the pioneers would make Apple Jack. They would let barrels of apple cider sit out in the winter.. every morning they would go out with a spoon and scoop off the ice that had formed on top. What was eventually left was Apple Jack.

When ever I make apple wine, I usually take about 2 gallons of it, freeze it and make Apple Jack. Just put it in a water jug, freeze it, and turn it upside down over a pitcher.

Good stuff..

The term "freeze distilling" is an oxymoron. Freeze is seriously cold and distilling requires fire. How do you freeze distill? This is not a real term. It only exists in the brewing community, and quite frankly, is what's confusing people about the legality of fractional freezing. The word distill throws everyone off and freaks out the reader. Either way, I know what you mean, and yes, I've read that too. It's a pretty cool story. You should try this if you live in a cold state.

Good luck with your Apple Jack, and if you wouldn't mind, respond with what you think the alcohol ABV might be and what it tastes like would be great.

Cheers

 

[dlester]

I watched videos on youtube... one a guy put the liquid in a plastic bottle, froze it solid, turned it over and let it drip out until the ice was white.

With the low freezing point of the alcohol, I feel like the slushy method would take forever... as soon as you start to strain it, it'll melt before all the ice is separated.

I've tried it as a slush and as a block of ice. The alcohol appeared stronger, and the frozen slush didn't melt as fast as you would think. In fact, it separated in 30 minutes and appeared to be a full 40% ABV. I still think that extracting the solution and alcohol during a strong slush is the best method, but I'm too new at this to be an expert.

Either way, try it the way you think best and report back.

 

[dlester]

Whoa, lots of misinformation after I posted the link to the chart on temperature vs. alcohol content possible.
Volume remaining after concentration does not determine alcohol content. You can't freeze concentrate a liquid/beer down to 50% alcohol without super low temperatures. Read up on how difficult it was for Brew Dog to make their super high alcohol beers, for example. 40% alcohol vodka won't even freeze in a conventional freezer to be able to concentrate out the water further, so how could you freeze concentrate your beer beyond that?:rockin:

I agree Chri5 that trying to freeze an alcohol at that percentage would require a a much lower temp. However, I think the initial extraction doesn't require that low of a temp.

 

[fearwig]

I agree Chri5 that trying to freeze an alcohol at that percentage would require a a much lower temp. However, I think the initial extraction doesn't require that low of a temp.

I think the point is that whatever runs off the ice is limited to the max ABV for that temperature. The volumetric measurement described above is misleading because it assumes 0% alcohol in the remaining ice, which is past impossible.

THEN you have to think about sugars, which further lower freezing points, further lowering ABV potential. I bet you'll peak out around 30% if you do it perfectly. Which is plenty.

 

[LBussy]

I'm a fairly experienced reader of ATF regulations - being a pyrotechnics person, but I am not a lawyer. I have spent a good deal of time across the table from ATF Investigators as well as with my own attorneys to make sure I stay a free man. I read 94-3 as well as 27 CFR 25.11 and here's what I take away from it:

Removing a "small quantity" of water (stated as no more than 0.5%) is "ice beer" and legal. Concentration of beer is what you are talking about and is only legal if you reconstitute it again. "Production" is not a commercial term, and is the only stipulation in the regulations (i,e, "you may produce ...").

So, removal of water from beer is not the same as removing alcohol from beer and thus not distillation - cool. You guys can play that card all you like. I can however tell you with a fair degree of certainty how something like this works: "Jackbooted thugs" (a quote from a person I know who received such a visit) will come into your home, separate you from your family, probably throw you on the ground and probably handcuff you in front of your kids. You will at the very least make the local papers/internet news, and miss time from work. Said "thugs" will remove pretty much everything which could have been involved in the production of the substance in question, including bags of sugar from your wife's pantry, your refrigerator/freezer, every un-sealed/taxed bottle of non-commercial alcoholic beverage, unmarked kegs (which say "Property of Budweiser ... remember that story?) and march it all out of your house in front of your neighbors.

You will probably at this point not exercise your right to STFU and incriminate yourself for something. If this happens the rest of this "it happened to a friend of mine" story doesn't even apply to you. You will be convicted, lose your job and a lot of nice things. Oh and if they happen to see a drill press or grinder and an AR-15 while looking for other things, you will also be charged with possession of tools and equipment to make an automatic weapon. Yes, seriously.

If you did STFU, hopefully you can afford a smart lawyer, experienced in all this, because a public defender will advise you to plead it out. That lawyer will be expensive and doesn't even want to hear about "I can sue them for false arrest and get your money that way". Nope, he wants cash. He makes his money whether you were too cute by far or not. You also likely can't sell your house or car for that cash because one of those was posted as collateral against your bail bond.

Months will drag by, you will become a raging ******* because of the stress, your wife will leave, your job (if you kept it this long) will eventually grow tired of being nice about it and find some other reason to fire you. Now you are broke, indicted, separated from your family, have no place to call home and no car to drive there.

Fast forward two years (this was a quick process this time) where said friend was acquitted. Would you believe his wife, kids, car, house, money, and job were not handed back to him? The nerve! But he was right all along, surely that means something. At this point you might have the stomach to try to file papers to get back all your things which I am sure have been stored safely in some federal locker somewhere. You still want that fridge back with all the food in it, right?

So, you were right, I was wrong. You can make your crappy "hard beer". That was definitely worth it.

 

[PintoBean]

As someone who just completed the TTB process and read most of the rules and regulations, yes, you can freeze distill your beer as much as you want....as long as you reconstitute it with water back to within 0.5% of it's original volume. So, if you freeze a gallon of beer (128 fl oz ) down to 1/2 gallon (64 fl oz) you must add 60.8 fl oz of water back to the concentrate to stay legal.

 

[fearwig]

Good idea to have some water with your booze anyway, I say. Reconstitute it in your stomach!

Really though, unless you are selling this or sharing it on a massive scale, you are not going to have feds at your door.

You can go to jail for hosting a poker game, too--but you don't, unless you're doing it for profit, or otherwise attracting bad attention, because it would be ludicrous. If you call an ATF tipline (or whatever they have) and report your neighbor for putting milk jugs full of cider in a snow drift, you'll be laughed off the line.

On the other hand, if your house looks like the Branch Davidian complex, maybe you should stay straight and narrow.

 

[LBussy]

Good idea to have some water with your booze anyway, I say. Reconstitute it in your stomach!

Really though, unless you are selling this or sharing it on a massive scale, you are not going to have feds at your door.

You can go to jail for hosting a poker game, too--but you don't, unless you're doing it for profit, because it would be ludicrous. If you call an ATF tipline (or whatever they have) and report your neighbor for putting milk jugs full of cider in a snow drift, you'll be laughed off the line.

True .. but "living on the edge" to let's say have a fling with a gorgeous blond is one thing ... living on the edge to have concentrated crap is another. If jacking fermented spirits was a good product we'd still be doing it. It lacks the ability to refine the alcohol content (remove higher and lower esters) that fractional distillation does.

What I generally hear is someone's girlfriend gets pissed and tells the cops that her ex is (insert illegal thing here) and they are the ones that call in the feds. You would be surprised what a bored local cop can do to your life.

Folks can do as they wish, take whatever risk they feel is appropriate. To me, risking a stay in the federal "pound my @$$" gray-bar hotel for something as silly as jacking homemade beer is silly. I go buy good bourbon to sip when I want it.

 

[chri5]

I'm a fairly experienced reader of ATF regulations...

Is the experience you are describing in relation to freeze concentration specifically, or are you extrapolating it based upon another type of violation?

 

[Paps]

If jacking fermented spirits was a good product we'd still be doing it. It lacks the ability to refine the alcohol content (remove higher and lower esters) that fractional distillation does.

Allthough you are correct about jacking not being able to remove the heads and the tails (higher/lower esters) I disagree that places stopped jacking because it makes a `bad product`. I think it has more to do with efficiency/speed of production.Jacking a large quantity of cider would be a huge PITA vs cooking it in an enclosed pot with a heat exchanger coming out the end of it.

With any luck in mid 2014 i will be getting a distillers license or perhaps a local brandy makers license and will produce true to form apple-jack using the big PITA method of freezing it.

Legality-----this is probably the 6th millionth debate on wether or not jacking is legal. Nobody here is a lawyer and state laws may vary so please everybody let's not argue over its legality & stick to what these forums are for.

 

[dlester]

Please respond with a link that reports on your friends arrest.

Thank you,

 

[PintoBean]

Allthough you are correct about jacking not being able to remove the heads and the tails (higher/lower esters) I disagree that places stopped jacking because it makes a `bad product`. I think it has more to do with efficiency/speed of production.Jacking a large quantity of cider would be a huge PITA vs cooking it in an enclosed pot with a heat exchanger coming out the end of it.

With any luck in mid 2014 i will be getting a distillers license or perhaps a local brandy makers license and will produce true to form apple-jack using the big PITA method of freezing it.

Legality-----this is probably the 6th millionth debate on wether or not jacking is legal. Nobody here is a lawyer and state laws may vary so please everybody let's not argue over its legality & stick to what these forums are for.

There shouldn't be a debate. It's illegal. The TTB regs spell it out loud and clear. There is nothing confusing about the law or any gray area to be misinterpreted. Regardless of state laws, it's illegal on the federal level.

That being said, I agree with everyone that the feds aren't going to come knocking down your door for freeze distilling a milk jug of hard cider...Regardless of angry ex-girlfriends and what not. They have bigger fish to fry. Now, if you're running 'shine tickle style, you might have something to worry about

 

[motobrewer]

paging cape brewing.

 

[dlester]

I'm a fairly experienced reader of ATF regulations - being a pyrotechnics person, but I am not a lawyer. I have spent a good deal of time across the table from ATF Investigators as well as with my own attorneys to make sure I stay a free man. I read 94-3 as well as 27 CFR 25.11 and here's what I take away from it:

Removing a "small quantity" of water (stated as no more than 0.5%) is "ice beer" and legal. Concentration of beer is what you are talking about and is only legal if you reconstitute it again. "Production" is not a commercial term, and is the only stipulation in the regulations (i,e, "you may produce ...").

So, removal of water from beer is not the same as removing alcohol from beer and thus not distillation - cool...

You will probably at this point not exercise your right to STFU and incriminate yourself for something. If this happens the rest of this "it happened to a friend of mine" story doesn't even apply to you. You will be convicted, lose your job and a lot of nice things. Oh and if they happen to see a drill press or grinder and an AR-15 while looking for other things, you will also be charged with possession of tools and equipment to make an automatic weapon. Yes, seriously.

If you did STFU, hopefully you can afford a smart lawyer, experienced in all this, because a public defender will advise you to plead it out. That lawyer will be expensive and doesn't even want to hear about "I can sue them for false arrest and get your money that way". Nope, he wants cash. He makes his money whether you were too cute by far or not. You also likely can't sell your house or car for that cash because one of those was posted as collateral against your bail bond.

Months will drag by, you will become a raging ******* because of the stress, your wife will leave, your job (if you kept it this long) will eventually grow tired of being nice about it and find some other reason to fire you. Now you are broke, indicted, separated from your family, have no place to call home and no car to drive there.

Fast forward two years (this was a quick process this time) where said friend was acquitted. Would you believe his wife, kids, car, house, money, and job were not handed back to him? The nerve! But he was right all along, surely that means something. At this point you might have the stomach to try to file papers to get back all your things which I am sure have been stored safely in some federal locker somewhere. You still want that fridge back with all the food in it, right?

So, you were right, I was wrong. You can make your crappy "hard beer". That was definitely worth it.

First and foremost, go back to the beginning of this thread where I discuss that this is not distillation, or "freeze distillation." In fact, freeze distillation is a term used only in the brewing community, and therefore, is not a term used correctly.

I have contacted the the TTB because ATF no longer regulates this. They specifically stated that this is not distillation, but rather, concentration. And, there is no limit to the amount of concentration, or ice removed. Therefore, is not illegal. That is why you will never be able to prove your argument that your friend was arrested for concentrating beer.

I invite you and anyone else reading this post to contact the TTB. In addition, I would like to present a video from Basic Brewing, where they too, contacted the TTB, which stated it is not illegal. I will give you the link and repost it for everyone else.

Basic Brewing Barley Wine Ice Beer and letter from TTB:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nnR4trUKVo

 

[PintoBean]

First and foremost, go back to the beginning of this thread where I discuss that this is not distillation, or "freeze distillation." In fact, freeze distillation is a term used only in the brewing community, and therefore, is not a term used correctly.

I have contacted the the TTB because ATF no longer regulates this. They specifically stated that this is not distillation, but rather, concentration. And, there is no limit to the amount of concentration, or ice removed. Therefore, is not illegal. That is why you will never be able to prove your argument that your friend was arrested for concentrating beer.

I invite you and anyone else reading this post to contact the TTB. In addition, I would like to present a video from Basic Brewing, where they too, contacted the TTB, which stated it is not illegal. I will give you the link and repost it for everyone else.

Basic Brewing Barley Wine Ice Beer and letter from TTB:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nnR4trUKVo

It's not illegal to concentrate it and there is no limit, but you must reconstitute it before consuming it (or in the case of a commercial brewery, selling it).

Also, there is even confusion among TTB employees, one will tell you it's legal and the next that it's illegal.

 

[fearwig]

It's not illegal to concentrate it and there is no limit, but you must reconstitute it before consuming it (or in the case of a commercial brewery, selling it).

Also, there is even confusion among TTB employees, one will tell you it's legal and the next that it's illegal.

It's funny to me that you could fill a warehouse with this stuff, but if you taste it without putting water in it you are committing a violation. Basically the definition of unenforceable.

 

[PintoBean]

It's funny to me that you could fill a warehouse with this stuff, but if you taste it without putting water in it you are committing a violation. Basically the definition of unenforceable.

It's all about taxes man. There's actually been a lot of talk about the way they tax beers aged in used spirit barrels. Right now, a craft brewery (under 2,000,000 BBL/yr in the eyes of the TTB) is taxed at a rate of $7/BBL vs the $18/BBL if you exceed that threshold, regardless of the beer, alcohol content, post-fermentation treatments (such as aging in bourbon barrels), etc. That might change...they want to tax beers aged in used spirit barrels at a higher rate.