Bought an extract kit by accident

[RyPA]

Hey guys,

I am brewing my very first all grain batch on Sunday and ran to a brew shop an hour away to get a few last minute supplies. While I was in there, I saw they had in-house recipe kits so I figured I'd pick one up and save myself the shipping cost for my next batch of beer. After I got home and opened it up, I realized the kit was extract.. the packaging did not make it obvious.

Now that I am switching to all grain, I don't want to go backwards and make an extract batch. I figured I'd use all of the other ingredients in this kit, except for the 6 lb's of DME, and figure out what kind of grains to get to make the recipe work. It did come with a small amount of grains that I am thinking I can use. Can anyone recommend a grain combo? The kit is for a west coast IPA

Here's what came with the kit that I am trying to make an all grain recipe from:

Malts/grains
6 lbs DME
1 lb Munich malt
8 oz Carapils

Hops
2 oz colombus
2 oz simcoe
1 oz centennial
1 oz cascade
2 oz simcoe+cascade for dry hopping

Yeast
Safale US-o5

Other
1 lb corn sugar

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

What brand / style of LME?

 

[RyPA]

It doesn't say, it's the brew shops own labeling. Just says 'Light Malt Extract'

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

For a "Light" LME, I would substitute a basic "two row" base malt (vs Pilsen or Maris Otter base malts).

You can use Lazy Chart For Converting - DME - LME -GRAIN - to convert LME to base malt (at 75% efficiency).

 

[RyPA]

Sorry, I'm new, what do the values in the table represent, the weight?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Grain is "base malt", "Liquid" is LME.

For example, substitute 4 lb of grain (base malt) for 3 lb of liquid (LME). The table assumes a mash efficiency of 75%.

 

[RyPA]

So with my 6 lbs of DME (noted LME by accident above), I'd need 10 lbs of grain? 2 row base malt would work?

Would using the below as well cause any harm?
1 lb Munich malt
8 oz Carapils

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

So with my 6 lbs of DME (noted LME by accident above), I'd need 10 lbs of grain? 2 row base malt would work?

Yes (to both).

 

[JJinMD]

Save the LME for making yeast starters or adjusting gravity, if ever needed!

 

[IslandLizard]

Would using the below as well cause any harm?
1 lb Munich malt
8 oz Carapils

No, no harm.
But they may not add much either:

Carapils will give you some extra dextrins for mouthfeel and foam stabilization. 8 oz (~5%) is about the minimum used in a 1.055-1.060 beer. 12-16oz more common.

Munich adds extra maltiness and color, more at higher Lovibond. Any indication what kind of Munich it is, and maltster perhaps?
https://www.brewingwithbriess.com/products/munich-malts/

 

[RyPA]

If it was you guys, what would you do from a grain perspective? I'm trying to get the best bang for my buck out of this $45 mistake ($26 if I can salvage the rest of the kit).

I should have asked what the "(EX)" meant. Thinking back I should have connected the dots, but oh well. I kind of last minute went back and grabbed this without thinking. Funny part is I was asking him about bulkheads for my homemade mash tun, I am surprised he didn't say "you know this is extract, right".

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

what would you do from a grain perspective?

I would brew the kit "as is".

eta: the other option (substitute a base malt for the DME) was discussed earlier.

 

[Spundit]

Having DME around is not bad even for an all Grain brewer. Unlike LME it lasts a long time if you keep it in a well sealed package It can be used for yeast starters. It is also handy when you miss your original gravity target on the low side. Just add some DME to the boil and you can get back on target. I have also been known to use it in really big beers (>10%) to add a few gravity points without all the bulk.

 

[RyPA]

I would brew the kit "as is".

eta: the other option (substitute a base malt for the DME) was discussed earlier.

Thought about that, but I remember from the extract brews I've done in the past, they were never great, just so-so. I was hoping to be done with extract. I think I am going to use 10 lb of 2 row instead of the DME. I will keep the DME on hand to use if needed.

Having DME around is not bad even for an all Grain brewer. Unlike LME it lasts a long time if you keep it in a well sealed package It can be used for yeast starters. It is also handy when you miss your original gravity target on the low side. Just add some DME to the boil and you can get back on target. I have also been known to use it in really big beers (>10%) to add a few gravity points without all the bulk.

Sounds good, yes the packages it came in is sealed, so I'll just hang on to it and used when needed.

 

[IslandLizard]

the packaging did not make it obvious

Size of the kit (the package) would be the giveaway.
For a 5 gallon recipe (~1.050-1.060) you'd need 10-12 pounds of base malt, that's a big bag with grain, and twice as heavy as 2 bags of DME, or 2 cans of LME.

 

[RyPA]

Yeah, I have yet to see a full grain kit so I didn't know any better...my sip of sunshine full grain kit arrives tomorrow. I won't make the mistake again

 

[IslandLizard]

I will keep the DME on hand to use if needed.

In the original sealed bags, DME will last many, many years. Even when opened, just reseal well. Store cool and dark, but not refrigerated. It may get clumpy, even rock hard with time, but it's still as good a fresh. Just takes a little longer to dissolve.

 

[RyPA]

After reading this thread, I may just brew the extract kit as-is. does all grain beer taste better than extract? or is it just an experience thing?

It was my thought that extract was always inferior to AG, but it sounds like this is not the case. Being this is my very first AG batch, I am not experienced enough to take advantage of the flexibility of AG.. I am following the instructions that come with it and hope I don't screw it up.

 

[IslandLizard]

I am following the instructions that come with it and hope I don't screw it up.

Just omit the secondary, it's not needed, even detrimental to your beer, as it causes oxidation. Oxygen is especially bad for hoppier beers.

Leave then beer where it is, in the "primary," and avoid air (oxygen) exposure once fermentation has started, all the way through packaging. Read up on how best to do that.

 

[RyPA]

Just omit the secondary, it's not needed, even detrimental to your beer, as it causes oxidation. Oxygen is especially bad for hoppier beers.

Leave then beer where it is, in the "primary," and avoid air (oxygen) exposure once fermentation has started, all the way through packaging. Read up on how best to do that.

I do not plan on secondary fermentation, never have and likely never will.

 

[hout17]

May I also suggest some good reading material. I find "How To Brew" by John Palmer (4th edition) to be a gold mine for new and experienced brewers if you don't have it already. Happy Brewing!

 

[RyPA]

May I also suggest some good reading material. I find "How To Brew" by John Palmer (4th edition) to be a gold mine for new and experienced brewers if you don't have it already. Happy Brewing!

Thanks, that's a good idea. I think a book may be a good idea, I've been relying on youtube videos.

Here's what I am thinking for my first mash, please someone correct me if I am wrong:

1. Heat water to 180 and add to mash tun cooler and wait until it drops to 170
2. Add grains and stir
3. Check that temps have dropped to 149 to 156. If so, put lid on and wait 60 minutes. If under, add more hot water, if over, can I add ice?
4. While waiting for 60 minute mash, heat sparge water
5. After 60 minutes, check a sample of mash with iodine to confirm completion
6. If complete, vorlauf to get clean wort into brew kettle, if not complete, wait 10 minutes, rinse and repeat
7. Sparge -- add 4.5 gallons back onto drained grain bed, stir, and let sit for 10 minutes
8. Vorlauf again to get ~5 gallons in brew kettle

 

[Kickass]

Extract isn’t inferior, brew it and stop worrying what others may think.

 

[Kickass]

And three threads down...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/aha-homebrewer-of-the-year.695096/

 

[BigDave1303]

I would just brew the kit & double check any future purchases.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Here's what I am thinking for my first mash

Are you aware of the "Brew in a Bag" (BIAB) approach to all-grain brewing?

 

[JRHDBrew]

Thanks, that's a good idea. I think a book may be a good idea, I've been relying on youtube videos.

Here's what I am thinking for my first mash, please someone correct me if I am wrong:

1. Heat water to 180 and add to mash tun cooler and wait until it drops to 170
2. Add grains and stir
3. Check that temps have dropped to 149 to 156. If so, put lid on and wait 60 minutes. If under, add more hot water, if over, can I add ice?
4. While waiting for 60 minute mash, heat sparge water
5. After 60 minutes, check a sample of mash with iodine to confirm completion
6. If complete, vorlauf to get clean wort into brew kettle, if not complete, wait 10 minutes, rinse and repeat
7. Sparge -- add 4.5 gallons back onto drained grain bed, stir, and let sit for 10 minutes
8. Vorlauf again to get ~5 gallons in brew kettle

I am about to embark on all grain in the next few weeks and stumbled upon a YouTube video of John Palmer walking through a mash to fermenter as Northern Brewer was opening their new store. I knew the steps you listed above but he threw in some other nuggets. If you haven’t seen it, google John Palmer Northern Brewer. Likely the first link listed.

 

[RyPA]

Extract isn’t inferior, brew it and stop worrying what others may think.

Nothing to do what others may think. Nobody that I associate with brews beer so they wouldn't know what AG vs extract even means. I am trying to get the best tasting beer. But as I mentioned above, after further reading, I found that not all extract beer is crap.

I would just brew the kit & double check any future purchases.

Agree

Are you aware of the "Brew in a Bag" (BIAB) approach to all-grain brewing?

I am...

 

[marc1]

Thanks, that's a good idea. I think a book may be a good idea, I've been relying on youtube videos.

Here's what I am thinking for my first mash, please someone correct me if I am wrong:

1. Heat water to 180 and add to mash tun cooler and wait until it drops to 170
2. Add grains and stir
3. Check that temps have dropped to 149 to 156. If so, put lid on and wait 60 minutes. If under, add more hot water, if over, can I add ice?
4. While waiting for 60 minute mash, heat sparge water
5. After 60 minutes, check a sample of mash with iodine to confirm completion
6. If complete, vorlauf to get clean wort into brew kettle, if not complete, wait 10 minutes, rinse and repeat
7. Sparge -- add 4.5 gallons back onto drained grain bed, stir, and let sit for 10 minutes
8. Vorlauf again to get ~5 gallons in brew kettle

170 seems a little high for mash water

 

[RyPA]

170 seems a little high for mash water

Wouldn't the grains cool it down to mash temp? or not that much

 

[marc1]

Wouldn't the grains cool it down to mash temp? or not that much

Maybe? Depends on your water volume and grain weight.
My last mash was 1.8 quarts per pound and went from 160.5 to 151.1 after mashing in. It's going to be system dependent

 

[RyPA]

Ok, the kit is coming in this afternoon. If there are any gaps in the instructions I will post here.

Thanks

 

[IslandLizard]

Wouldn't the grains cool it down to mash temp? or not that much

Use a mash calculator. You want to hit your intended mash temp right on the nose.

It's easy to drop the temp, by adding cold water or ice, small amounts of at a time, while stirring well. But it's quite cumbersome to raise the temp, even by 2-4 degrees (you'd need boiling or near boiling water).

Now a mash temp anywhere between 148F and 156F will make good fermentable wort. Even at lower temps than that, just mash for longer times. But beware, don't mash at much higher temps, unless you know what you're doing.

 

[RyPA]

Use a mash calculator. You want to hit it right on the nose. Although it's easy to drop the temp (add cold water or ice small amounts at a while stirring well), it's cumbersome to raise the temp.

Now a mash temp anywhere between 148F and 156F will make good fermentable wort. Even at lower temps than that, just mash for longer times. But beware, don't mash at much higher temps.

Thanks. Aside from my temps, do my steps look correct?

 

[Miraculix]

I would brew the kit "as is".

eta: the other option (substitute a base malt for the DME) was discussed earlier.

I wouldn't, they've put Munich in there, that malt cannot be steeped. It needs to be mashed.

I would exclude the Munich and also the carapils (that one is also not fully converted and it is better to mash it) and just brew it with the dme only.

 

[IslandLizard]

Aside from my temps, do my steps look correct?

These steps: (?)

Here's what I am thinking for my first mash, please someone correct me if I am wrong:

1. Heat water to 180 and add to mash tun cooler and wait until it drops to 170
2. Add grains and stir
3. Check that temps have dropped to 149 to 156. If so, put lid on and wait 60 minutes. If under, add more hot water, if over, can I add ice?
4. While waiting for 60 minute mash, heat sparge water
5. After 60 minutes, check a sample of mash with iodine to confirm completion
6. If complete, vorlauf to get clean wort into brew kettle, if not complete, wait 10 minutes, rinse and repeat
7. Sparge -- add 4.5 gallons back onto drained grain bed, stir, and let sit for 10 minutes
8. Vorlauf again to get ~5 gallons in brew kettle

Arriving at your mash temp has been addressed, use a mash calculator. And if you don't preheat the tun, estimate how much your mash temp will drop due to its thermal mass. Also, much easier to take it down 4-6 degrees than adding them.

"Vorlauf" is drain some wort (1/2 - 1 gallon) and returning it to the tun. Usually 1-3 times until the runnings are clear (enough) without lots of grain bits. Then you drain it (German: "Lauter").

Everything else looks fine, yes.
Ready?

 

[marc1]

Thanks, that's a good idea. I think a book may be a good idea, I've been relying on youtube videos.

Here's what I am thinking for my first mash, please someone correct me if I am wrong:

1. Heat water to 180 and add to mash tun cooler and wait until it drops to 170
2. Add grains and stir
3. Check that temps have dropped to 149 to 156. If so, put lid on and wait 60 minutes. If under, add more hot water, if over, can I add ice?
4. While waiting for 60 minute mash, heat sparge water
5. After 60 minutes, check a sample of mash with iodine to confirm completion
6. If complete, vorlauf to get clean wort into brew kettle, if not complete, wait 10 minutes, rinse and repeat
7. Sparge -- add 4.5 gallons back onto drained grain bed, stir, and let sit for 10 minutes
8. Vorlauf again to get ~5 gallons in brew kettle

Also, you want to start your boil with enough wort to account for losses to boiling and trub. So if you boil off 1 gallon during the hour boil, and lose 1/2 gallon to trub at the bottom of the kettle, and you want 5.5 gallons to go into your fermenter, you would want 1 + 0.5 + 5.5 = 7 gallons into the boil kettle.
Having extra wort go into your fermenter allows you to get a full 5 gallons packaged (there's going to be yeast and trub at the bottom of the fermenter when it's done).
Adjust mash and sparge volumes so that you have enough for what you want. If the kit is only designed to end up with 5 gallons at the end of the boil, your gravities will be off if you try to go larger volumes to account for losses. I'm not sure what the directions say.
You can always set your kettle trub loss to 0 and put 5 gallons into the fermenter if you want, just be aware that you'll get less packaged beer.

 

[Dancy]

After reading this thread, I may just brew the extract kit as-is. does all grain beer taste better than extract? or is it just an experience thing?
It was my thought that extract was always inferior to AG, but it sounds like this is not the case.

Well there’s a thread yesterday about the AHA Home Brewer of the Year winning with an extract recipe so it isn’t the end of the world — though I understand your frustration about buying the incorrect kit.

 

[RyPA]

My full grain Sip of Sunshine kit arrived! I think I am ready to go. I did another leak test on my mash tun and everything is looking good. Going to prep my equipment tonight so I can get right into it tomorrow.



Here are the instructions. Can someone help out with my questions?

1. Mash at 152F for 60 minutes
   1. Can anyone help me with water temp when adding it to the mash tun? I am using a 10 gallon HD cooler.
2. After 60 minutes, add hot water to bring mash in the mash tun to 170F, let rest for 10 minutes.
   1. Does it matter how much water I add when mashing out, can there be too much or too little?
3. I am now at 70 minutes and my mash tun is full of wort (nothing yet in the kettle). Vorlauf until wort is clear and begin filling kettle.
   1. How hot should my sparge water be?

Thank you all!

 

[marc1]

My full grain Sip of Sunshine kit arrived! I think I am ready to go. I did another leak test on my mash tun and everything is looking good. Going to prep my equipment tonight so I can get right into it tomorrow.

Here are the instructions. Can someone help out with my questions?

1. Mash at 152F for 60 minutes
   1. Can anyone help me with water temp when adding it to the mash tun? I am using a 10 gallon HD cooler.
2. After 60 minutes, add hot water to bring mash in the mash tun to 170F, let rest for 10 minutes.
   1. Does it matter how much water I add when mashing out, can there be too much or too little?
3. I am now at 70 minutes and my mash tun is full of wort (nothing yet in the kettle). Vorlauf until wort is clear and begin filling kettle.
   1. How hot should my sparge water be?

Thank you all!

1 - Use a mash calculator. Or trial and error over many batches

2 - If you mash out, use what you need to. Basically, what you use for mash out will be taken away from what you would have used to sparge. After you drain your mash into your kettle, check the volume in your kettle, then add sparge water to the grains to get to your starting boil volume. (i.e. if you're looking to start the boil with 7 gallons, and you've got 4 gallons in your kettle, sparging with 3 gallons should get you there.)

3 - I sparge with room temp water. If you use hot to get to a boil faster, going over 170-ish can extract tannins if your pH is off.

On another note, I'm kind of surprised that Farmhouse didn't let you know what hops you're actually using. Makes it harder to learn about the hops and what they taste/smell like.