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tommy24a

tommy24a

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Is it my understanding that when fermenting in a conical under pressure and then bottling from there I would not need sugar normally needed for bottling? What does the co2 actually do?
 
Take a look at a carbonation chart for kegging. With enough time at the proper pressure the co2 will dissolve into the beer and provide carbonation. When you find a chart you'll see that at warmer temps it will require higher pressures to reach your desired level of carbonation. Depending on the pressure applied and temperature of your beer at the time you may or may not need to add additional sugars to get where you want to be.
 
Antonio Martinez said:
Take a look at a carbonation chart for kegging. With enough time at the proper pressure the co2 will dissolve into the beer and provide carbonation. When you find a chart you'll see that at warmer temps it will require higher pressures to reach your desired level of carbonation. Depending on the pressure applied and temperature of your beer at the time you may or may not need to add additional sugars to get where you want to be.
Click to expand...
Is there an ideal level of carbonation ?
 
Depends on the style of beer you're brewing. In general 2-2.5 volumes will be good for most styles.
 
tommy24a said:
And how do you measure the level?
Click to expand...


as far as the 2.1 to the 6th decimal? i don't. i guess i was just trying to joke around in bad taste. i burst carb with my tank on a scale, and find 1.2oz's of co2 is a perfectly carbed keg.

but definitely don't prime like it didn't already have a bunch of co2 in it!
 
Ok, so say I have 10 gallons in my conical under co2 pressure. How much pressure ballpark would I need for lets say a lager to reach an acceptable level of carbonation to bottle?
 
tommy24a said:
Ok, so say I have 10 gallons in my conical under co2 pressure. How much pressure ballpark would I need for lets say a lager to reach an acceptable level of carbonation to bottle?
Click to expand...


as far as know most people like 12psi? for ~2.5 vols...but that's temperature dependant. i'll get the chart

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Bottling 10 gallons of beer under pressure? Please shoot some video.

This is possible, but is a decidedly advanced procedure. I sense from the questions that you may be new to all of this, so you might want to go another route.

At best it will be messy and exhausting, and you’ll have under-carbonated beer. At worst, messy plus 10 gallons of flat beer.

To end up with the right concentration of CO2 at serving temps in the bottles, you‘ll need the fermenter pressure to be in the 20-something psi range if it’s sitting in the 60’s F. Refer to the chart. Look up 2.4 volumes and correlate it to temperature and pressure.
 
McKnuckle said:
Bottling 10 gallons of beer under pressure? Please shoot some video.

This is possible, but is a decidedly advanced procedure. I sense from the questions that you may be new to all of this, so you might want to go another route.

At best it will be messy and exhausting, and you’ll have under-carbonated beer. At worst, messy plus 10 gallons of flat beer.

To end up with the right concentration of CO2 at serving temps in the bottles, you‘ll need the fermenter pressure to be in the 20-something psi range if it’s sitting in the 60’s F. Refer to the chart. Look up 2.4 volumes and correlate it to temperature and pressure.
Click to expand...
You are correct that this is new to me at least the conical and co2 part. I have done AG before but not on this system. I guess I will empty the conical into bottling buckets, add my priming sugar and then bottle from there.
 
Fermenting and packaging under pressure is great with a keg, but bottles - man... I know at least that *I* wouldn't touch that with a 10' mash paddle. You may be built of stronger stuff! :)

The issue now is that if your beer is under pressure, you will need to calculate how many volumes of CO2 are already in it, in order to compensate when bottling. Otherwise you'll get the proverbial bombs. You can't just use the standard priming sugar calculators that assume fermentation at atmospheric pressure.

For example, if your fermenter is sitting at 65ºF and held at 10 psi, you already have 1.41 vols. CO2 in it. To carbonate and get 2.4 vols., you'd want to enter 1.0 for target CO2 vols. in a priming calculator. That's the difference between what you already have and what your actual target is.
 
To add to what McKnuckle is saying, you would also have to dose the bottles individually with that amount of sugar otherwise you're going to lose a lot of the carbonation built up under pressure if you were to transfer it to a bucket. Counter pressure bottling seems like the best option if this is something you really want to do. I would also add since you mentioned this is your first time with something like this that you have a spunding valve in place to release the over pressure in your conical. Here are a couple more resources for you:

Counter Pressure filling

Fermentation Under Pressure
 
McKnuckle said:
Fermenting and packaging under pressure is great with a keg, but bottles - man... I know at least that *I* wouldn't touch that with a 10' mash paddle. You may be built of stronger stuff! :)

The issue now is that if your beer is under pressure, you will need to calculate how many volumes of CO2 are already in it, in order to compensate when bottling. Otherwise you'll get the proverbial bombs. You can't just use the standard priming sugar calculators that assume fermentation at atmospheric pressure.

For example, if your fermenter is sitting at 65ºF and held at 10 psi, you already have 1.41 vols. CO2 in it. To carbonate and get 2.4 vols., you'd want to enter 1.0 for target CO2 vols. in a priming calculator. That's the difference between what you already have and what your actual target is.
Click to expand...
Got it, thanks for the info. Very helpful!
 
Antonio Martinez said:
To add to what McKnuckle is saying, you would also have to dose the bottles individually with that amount of sugar otherwise you're going to lose a lot of the carbonation built up under pressure if you were to transfer it to a bucket. Counter pressure bottling seems like the best option if this is something you really want to do. I would also add since you mentioned this is your first time with something like this that you have a spunding valve in place to release the over pressure in your conical. Here are a couple more resources for you:

Counter Pressure filling

Fermentation Under Pressure
Click to expand...
Checked put both links..good info! Looks like counter pressure is the way to go. 👍
 
Forget about fermenting under pressure and then priming the rest of the way. Even partly carbonated the beer will still foam a lot especially if you try and fill a bottle with priming sugar in it but even emptying the fermenter in a bucket will be quite a challenge.
Like others have said if you can't reach full carbonation and/or you don't want to try your hand at counterpressure bottle filling closed transfer into a keg is the only way to go.
 
Vale71 said:
Forget about fermenting under pressure and then priming the rest of the way. Even partly carbonated the beer will still foam a lot especially if you try and fill a bottle with priming sugar in it but even emptying the fermenter in a bucket will be quite a challenge.
Like others have said if you can't reach full carbonation and/or you don't want to try your hand at counterpressure bottle filling closed transfer into a keg is the only way to go.
Click to expand...
Yes I am starting to think for now I will not ferment under pressure.
 
What fermenter are you using? What head pressure and temperature is your batch currently being held at?
 
I have the same fermentor and do the closed/pressure transfer to kegs(amazing how much easier this is), but at a lower pressure, then force carb. I would check the specs, I don't know that the conical is rated for enough pressure to bottle with carbonation in the 60s.

I had thought of the idea of using the pressure transfer tool to a beer gun to do a counter-pressure fill, or something, but it got way to complicated in my head, so I think I'll just keg and use the filler from the taps when I need to share/send off to a competition..

Love the CF-15 though, and the ability to throw a pump at the bottom and run hot PBW solution in a cleaning cycle and walk away while it does most of the work is awesome..
 
Are you able to cold crash the fermenter to 40F or less? If so, your best bet is to cold crash in the fermenter after your primary and secondary stages are finished. This will allow you to transfer clear beer to your kegs. If your head pressure following the cold crash is still high (10+ psi), you might need to counter pressure fill your kegs to prevent major foaming. Make sure to not allow your head pressure to drop at any time after saturation equalibrium has been reached. If you do, the entire cold conditioning stage will be ruined becasue your settled solids will be mixed back in with your clear beer. If you wish to bottle directly from the fermenter, the best repeatable results will be obtained by using the counter pressure filling method. You will have to carbonate in the fermenter, preferably with a carbonation stone, and to a level higher than you want the finished product to be in the bottle. For a 2.5 volume target, I will usually carbonate to 2.7 - 2.8 volumes in my unitank. The filling and capping of bottles does not take very long (about 45-60 mins / 5gallons), the prep work can be very time consuming if you do not have equipment that expedites the process. If you do wish to bottle 10 gallon batches in the future you will definitly want to invest in a good bench mounted capper, and a way to clean and sanitize at least a dozen bottles at a time.
 
Advance said:
Are you able to cold crash the fermenter to 40F or less? If so, your best bet is to cold crash in the fermenter after your primary and secondary stages are finished. This will allow you to transfer clear beer to your kegs. If your head pressure following the cold crash is still high (10+ psi), you might need to counter pressure fill your kegs to prevent major foaming. Make sure to not allow your head pressure to drop at any time after saturation equalibrium has been reached. If you do, the entire cold conditioning stage will be ruined becasue your settled solids will be mixed back in with your clear beer. If you wish to bottle directly from the fermenter, the best repeatable results will be obtained by using the counter pressure filling method. You will have to carbonate in the fermenter, preferably with a carbonation stone, and to a level higher than you want the finished product to be in the bottle. For a 2.5 volume target, I will usually carbonate to 2.7 - 2.8 volumes in my unitank. The filling and capping of bottles does not take very long (about 45-60 mins / 5gallons), the prep work can be very time consuming if you do not have equipment that expedites the process. If you do wish to bottle 10 gallon batches in the future you will definitly want to invest in a good bench mounted capper, and a way to clean and sanitize at least a dozen bottles at a time.
Click to expand...
Great info, very much to think about. Trying to get my ducks in a row for my first brew. 😀
 
Wow, for some reason I interpreted your question(s) as being related to a real situation. Now that I re-read your first post, I see your inquiry was hypothetical. My bad.
 
khannon said:
I have the same fermentor and do the closed/pressure transfer to kegs(amazing how much easier this is), but at a lower pressure, then force carb. I would check the specs, I don't know that the conical is rated for enough pressure to bottle with carbonation in the 60s.

I had thought of the idea of using the pressure transfer tool to a beer gun to do a counter-pressure fill, or something, but it got way to complicated in my head, so I think I'll just keg and use the filler from the taps when I need to share/send off to a competition..

Love the CF-15 though, and the ability to throw a pump at the bottom and run hot PBW solution in a cleaning cycle and walk away while it does most of the work is awesome..
Click to expand...
Ok, so let me get this straight. I want to ferment under pressure to provide carbonation. Then when fermenting is complete I want to close Xfer to keg. From keg can I then use a blichmann beer gun to fill bottles?
 
tommy24a said:
Ok, so let me get this straight. I want to ferment under pressure to provide carbonation. Then when fermenting is complete I want to close Xfer to keg. From keg can I then use a blichmann beer gun to fill bottles?
Click to expand...

You can bottle right from the fermenter with no need to transfer to a keg. I would highly recommend counter pressure bottling over the beer gun though. You will get much better, repeatable results. You will have to have two seperate CO2 reguatlors in order make it work properly though. Using a tee fitting and a single regulator to supply the fermenter and the counter pressure filler, causes the headspace pressure to drop while the bottle is being purged. This casues CO2 bubbles to form on your settled solids and lift them into the clear beer you are trying to bottle. Unless you are fermenting a lager at ale temperatures, there is really no need to ferment under pressure. In fact the reduced ester production from the yeast might have a negative impact on the quality of your ales. For an ale, it is best to ferment with a simple airlock until the beer nears F.G. When you are 2-3 points away from your calculated F.G. the airlock is shut and pressure is allowed to build. The pressure from these last few gravity points might get up to the maximum safe operating pressure that your fermenter is rated for. If this happens, a spunding valve is utilized to keep the pressure steady at this level. You should always use a none adjustable pressure relief valve regardless of whether you are spunding or not. If you are fermenting a ale, you will always have to add carbonation during the cold crash stage. The pressures required to reach full carbonation at ale fermentation temperatures would be well over the maximum safe operating pressure of your fermenter, especially if you are planning to bottle (overcarb in fermenter to account for losses in the bottle).
 
Advance said:
You can bottle right from the fermenter with no need to transfer to a keg. I would highly recommend counter pressure bottling over the beer gun though. You will get much better, repeatable results. You will have to have two seperate CO2 reguatlors in order make it work properly though. Using a tee fitting and a single regulator to supply the fermenter and the counter pressure filler, causes the headspace pressure to drop while the bottle is being purged. This casues CO2 bubbles to form on your settled solids and lift them into the clear beer you are trying to bottle. Unless you are fermenting a lager at ale temperatures, there is really no need to ferment under pressure. In fact the reduced ester production from the yeast might have a negative impact on the quality of your ales. For an ale, it is best to ferment with a simple airlock until the beer nears F.G. When you are 2-3 points away from your calculated F.G. the airlock is shut and pressure is allowed to build. The pressure from these last few gravity points might get up to the maximum safe operating pressure that your fermenter is rated for. If this happens, a spunding valve is utilized to keep the pressure steady at this level. You should always use a none adjustable pressure relief valve regardless of whether you are spunding or not. If you are fermenting a ale, you will always have to add carbonation during the cold crash stage. The pressures required to reach full carbonation at ale fermentation temperatures would be well over the maximum safe operating pressure of your fermenter, especially if you are planning to bottle (overcarb in fermenter to account for losses in the bottle).
Click to expand...
Wow! A lot of information to digest for sure. Thank you! I have much to consider and learn. 👍
 
I think the simplest thing to have learned from this thread is not to ferment under pressure at all. Just because your conical can do it, doesn’t mean it’s something you should do all the time. You need a way to package the beer conveniently when using that technique.

If you really want 10 gallons worth of bottles, then ferment normally and bottle/carbonate normally.
 
McKnuckle said:
I think the simplest thing to have learned from this thread is not to ferment under pressure at all. Just because your conical can do it, doesn’t mean it’s something you should do all the time. You need a way to package the beer conveniently when using that technique.

If you really want 10 gallons worth of bottles, then ferment normally and bottle/carbonate normally.
Click to expand...

It seems like you haven't learn much if this is your advise with regards to how to use a unitank. You might as well say that unitanks are useless because fermenting under pressure requires additional steps that you find inconvenient, or too difficult to accomplish. I actually find proper use of my unitank to add convenience and quality to my finished product. Is there a learning curve? Yes. Is the OP lazy or incapable of learning how to properly use his new equipment? I hope not. He seems to be willing to ask some questions and do some research on the subject. Don't steer him away with baseless opinions.
 
You seem nice. :)

My opinion is not baseless. I do ferment under pressure and understand how it works. The OP seems to have planned to do so on brand new equipment without a full understanding of how to package in BOTTLES, or why pressure fermentation might be chosen, or ruled out, in the first place.

I and others have numerous helpful posts on this thread. The one you quoted is only part of the conversation.
 
McKnuckle said:
You seem nice. :)

My opinion is not baseless. I do ferment under pressure and understand how it works. The OP seems to have planned to do so on brand new equipment without a full understanding of how to package in BOTTLES, or why pressure fermentation might be chosen, or ruled out, in the first place.

I and others have numerous helpful posts on this thread. The one you quoted is only part of the conversation.
Click to expand...
I appreciate everyones opinion and posts. Yes me and my son are newbies with this equipment for sure. I have invested as I'm sure you are aware a good deal of money to get my son up and running with the least amount of problems and waste. Yes I'm sure there will be a huge learning curve and that's the reason I come to these forums for help and advice. Figured most of you guys have seen and experienced a heck of a lot more than me in the brewing world. I am all eyes and ears with all postings. Thanks guys.!
 
You're gonna have a great time, Tommy. Nobody is discouraging you from fermenting under pressure or taking advantage of all the bells and whistles you've invested in! But there are a few things that, while they can be done, are going to present layers of extra, unnecessary challenges. I think that point's been made!

When you're ready to put this beer in a keg, that'll be the best time to crank up the pressure and learn how to do it. If you're still up for bottling 10 gallons under pressure, there's lots of info in the thread to digest.

For me, the reading, learning, trying, refining, trying again cycle is one of the joys of home brewing. But I also don't want to knock my head against the proverbial wall. :)
 
McKnuckle said:
You're gonna have a great time, Tommy. Nobody is discouraging you from fermenting under pressure or taking advantage of all the bells and whistles you've invested in! But there are a few things that, while they can be done, are going to present layers of extra, unnecessary challenges. I think that point's been made!

When you're ready to put this beer in a keg, that'll be the best time to crank up the pressure and learn how to do it. If you're still up for bottling 10 gallons under pressure, there's lots of info in the thread to digest.

For me, the reading, learning, trying, refining, trying again cycle is one of the joys of home brewing. But I also don't want to knock my head against the proverbial wall. :)
Click to expand...
I hear you! I got the wall picked out already where I'm going to knock my head!! Lol! of all the info in this thread I'm leaning towards kegging into corneys and then filling the bottles we need from there. Now I'm sure that has pros and cons as well as well as different ways to do it.
 
Also, I personally don't like the beer gun or the complicated counter pressure filler. I have almost stopped bottling because it was too much of a hazzle. I ferment under pressure, carb up and transfer to keg.
 
tommy24a said:
Trying to get my ducks in a row for my first brew.
Click to expand...
Your very first brew or your first brew with the Unitank?

As others have said, when filling bottles with pre-carbonated beer the beer needs to be a) ice cold, and b) it needs to be done under counter pressure to keep foaming down. Commercial bottling is done that way, straight from the Bright Tank, with (additional) in-line carbonation if necessary.

Now filling kegs with (partially) pre-carbonated beer is also best done ice cold and often under counter pressure to reduce foaming.

Counter pressure filling is needed to keep the carbonation in the beer, similar to the chart above, keeping the exact and fine balance between pressure and temp.
 
McKnuckle said:
You seem nice. :)

My opinion is not baseless. I do ferment under pressure and understand how it works. The OP seems to have planned to do so on brand new equipment without a full understanding of how to package in BOTTLES, or why pressure fermentation might be chosen, or ruled out, in the first place.

I and others have numerous helpful posts on this thread. The one you quoted is only part of the conversation.
Click to expand...

Before my last reply to post #30 (your post) in this thread, your only other posts, ones which you deemed helpful, were posts #12 of #14 in which you say:

McKnuckle said:
Bottling 10 gallons of beer under pressure? Please shoot some video.

This is possible, but is a decidedly advanced procedure. I sense from the questions that you may be new to all of this, so you might want to go another route.

At best it will be messy and exhausting, and you’ll have under-carbonated beer. At worst, messy plus 10 gallons of flat beer.

To end up with the right concentration of CO2 at serving temps in the bottles, you‘ll need the fermenter pressure to be in the 20-something psi range if it’s sitting in the 60’s F. Refer to the chart. Look up 2.4 volumes and correlate it to temperature and pressure.
Click to expand...

and

McKnuckle said:
Fermenting and packaging under pressure is great with a keg, but bottles - man... I know at least that *I* wouldn't touch that with a 10' mash paddle. You may be built of stronger stuff! :)

The issue now is that if your beer is under pressure, you will need to calculate how many volumes of CO2 are already in it, in order to compensate when bottling. Otherwise you'll get the proverbial bombs. You can't just use the standard priming sugar calculators that assume fermentation at atmospheric pressure.

For example, if your fermenter is sitting at 65ºF and held at 10 psi, you already have 1.41 vols. CO2 in it. To carbonate and get 2.4 vols., you'd want to enter 1.0 for target CO2 vols. in a priming calculator. That's the difference between what you already have and what your actual target is.
Click to expand...

In both of these post you steer the OP away from bottling his brew directly from the unitank. Your argument indicates that bottling carbonated beer from a unitank is some out of reach possibly that would only result is total disaster, for which the OP should "shoot some video" of it. This argument is made without any support, which by definition, makes it baseless opinion. On top of that you told the OP that he needs to pressurize his fermenter to "20-something psi range" to reach proper carbonation levels in preparation to bottle at 60F. This is well above the maximum rated working pressure of the OP's vessel, which hopefully is safe guarded by a PRV. If you knew anything about bottling carbonated beer, you would know that it can not be done at 60F without ending in the foamy disaster you alluded too. In post #14 you recommend to the OP that he could move his partially carbonated beer to a bottling bucket and add priming sugar to finish carbonating in the bottle. Luckily @Vale71 was able to add some actual knowledge that hopefully derailed the disastrous result this beauty would have produced.

My advise to the OP (@tommy24a) is you just invested quite a bit of money in some pretty nice equipment. Congrats! You should be motivated to learn about it, and to use it to its full capabilities. While researching you might find that some of the processes that must be utilized to achieve a specific goal are beyond your current skill level. Some of them might require additional tools/equipment that you currently do not have or wish to aquire. The decision to not attempt these processes are YOURS to make. Many members, including myself, will be more than happy to outline the steps required to achieve a specific result. Happy Brewing!
 

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