Bottling Carbonation Temperature

[bfriend54]

Yesterday I bottled my first double IPA... I used the Priming Sugar Calculator on Northern Brewers website.... http://www.northernbrewer.com/priming-sugar-calculator/

The beer had been cold crashed over night at 45 degrees. I used THAT temperature in the Northern Brewer calculator...

I thought this through afterwards and realized is probably a problem, since the actual bottling temps will be around 70 degrees and my carb levels are going to come out too low...

My thinking now is to just put the bottles back in the fridge and leave them there to carbonate at a lower temperature

Can I anticipate any problems doing this? I just bottled them yesterday so it's not too late as I see it...

Thx

 

[Hex23]

The temperature input to priming calculators is what the temperature of the beer is at bottling time. It is not about the temperature the bottles are kept at for conditioning. The relevance is that you're trying to estimate the amount of CO2 already in solution. The lower the temperature, the more CO2 that can be dissolved.

So based on what you did, you should be fine. Don't put them into the fridge until the they've had adequate time to build carbonation. For a DIPA, it's probably going to take at least 3 weeks at 70F.

 

[bfriend54]

The temperature input to priming calculators is what the temperature of the beer is at bottling time. It is not about the temperature the bottles are kept at for conditioning. The relevance is that you're trying to estimate the amount of CO2 already in solution. The lower the temperature, the more CO2 that can be dissolved.

So based on what you did, you should be fine. Don't put them into the fridge until the they've had adequate time to build carbonation. For a DIPA, it's probably going to take at least 3 weeks at 70F.

OK thanks very much... BTW I used 1.4 oz of corn sugar for 2.2 gallons

 

[bfriend54]

OK thanks very much... BTW I used 1.4 oz of corn sugar for 2.2 gallons

I have a feeling that this is not going to work out. I just read a long thread going back and forth as to who is correct...

Basically I added priming sugar to my beer in the amount dictated by the crash cold temp 45 degrees...But now the bottles are sitting at room temp...

According to the discussion I read...my beer will be under carbonated... Should i put it back in the fridge or is it too late

 

[Hex23]

I'd be curious to see the thread you're talking about. I suppose if you ferment at say 70, then crash down to 45, there is only a limited amount of CO2 in the headspace that will be re-absorbed back into the beer. So, using the crash temperature is not ideal (but nor is using the fermentation temp). But really, I wouldn't sweat it. You're talking the equivalent of about 3.2 oz in a 5 gallon batch. I've carb'ed with about that much in several of my batches that started at 60F at bottling time, and they carbonated just fine. Putting it in the fridge at this point will do nothing beneficial. It will only slow down the yeast from creating the CO2 needed for carbonation.

 

[OkashiiBrew]

I always cold crash to drop as much yeast out as I can. Toss in the sugar per guidelines and per procedure. Let sit at room temp for weeks, trying one each week starting week 3 till it is to my liking. Then start tossing them in the fridge to enjoy. And can you link the thread that is causing anxiety? The really high OG beers I only test every other month.

 

[bfriend54]

Ok thanks. Here's the thread I read.


https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/effects-cold-crashing-priming-sugar-needs-134347/

 

[zachattack]

The temperature you input is the warmest temperature the beer saw post fermentation. Not the temp at bottling, not the cold crash temp, not the bottle conditioning temp. At 3.2 ounces of corn sugar per 5 gallons, this batch will probably be carbed lower than you want.

 

[progmac]

it's going to be lightly carbed but not that bad. sorry man.

 

[Hex23]

The temperature you input is the warmest temperature the beer saw post fermentation. Not the temp at bottling, not the cold crash temp, not the bottle conditioning temp. At 3.2 ounces of corn sugar per 5 gallons, this batch will probably be carbed lower than you want.

Frankly I don't buy the idea that it is exactly one or the other of ferm temp and crash temp - probably somewhere in-between. At least some of that CO2 that was expelled during fermentation and sitting on top of the beer will be reabsorbed when the beer is chilled.

 

[Hex23]

With the calculator in Beersmith, even if you use 68F as your temperature, your 1.4 oz should still lead to about 2.1 volumes. I say that crash chilling will probably bump that number up a little more. Sure, this is on the lower end of the style, but I doubt you'll call it under-carbed. Besides that, I've found that carbonation is also a function of other parameters like yeast strain, and alcohol level and temperature.

Taking measures to correct this would involve some effort like un-capping and re-priming. That can be a real crapshoot. I'd say just ride it out and learn.

 

[zachattack]

Frankly I don't buy the idea that it is exactly one or the other of ferm temp and crash temp - probably somewhere in-between. At least some of that CO2 that was expelled during fermentation and sitting on top of the beer will be reabsorbed when the beer is chilled.

Some of it will be reabsorbed, but most of it will leave. Let's say you have 5.5 gallons of beer in a 6.5 gallon carboy. Going from room temperature (say 25 deg C) to fridge temperature (say 3 degrees C) the CO2 solubility roughly doubles. In at atmosphere of pure CO2 at 1 atm, the room temperature beer will hold ~0.85 volumes of CO2, and the cold beer will hold ~1.6 volumes of CO2. So 5.5 gallons of beer will pull in 4.1 gallons of CO2 as it's chilled. Since you only have one gallon of headspace, it's only going to pull in an additional 0.2 volumes of CO2. And that's assuming you maintain 1 atmosphere of CO2 over the beer, once you start to pull air in (as the beer absorbs CO2 and as the volume contracts due to temperature change) that's going to drop. Of course I'm simplifying the calculations a little bit, the "volumes of co2" concept is based off of 20 degree C CO2, and obviously the temperature is fluctuating here.

The thing to remember about these calculators is that they're just approximations. As you bump the carboy, you lose CO2. As it warms up a little while you're bottling, you lose CO2. As you siphon it, you lose CO2. Etc. That's why a lot of people just add 5 ounces of corn sugar and call it done. Or they keg

 

[bfriend54]

The bottles I used were the Grolsch swing top style bottles. Its only been a day and a half to intervene. Should I pop the tops and start over? Pour them all back in the bottling bucket and add another 0.5 oz of corn sugar ?

 

[bfriend54]

Or just put the bottles in the fridge?

 

[zachattack]

Putting the bottles in the fridge will prevent them from carbonating at all. I definitely wouldn't pour them back in the bucket, that'll oxidize the beer for sure. If you really want you could add a carb drop or a carefully measured sugar addition to each bottle?

 

[Hex23]

If you really want you could add a carb drop or a carefully measured sugar addition to each bottle?

And this is kind of where the crap shoot comes into play. How much CO2 have the yeast made in a day and a half? Who knows? How much of that is already in solution vs. in the headspace waiting to escape? Again, who knows? Unless you wanted to reset them by leaving the cap off (definitely not advised) your only guessing on how much sugar to add.

OP: See why its not worth the headache to take corrective measures?

 

[Hex23]

Some of it will be reabsorbed, but most of it will leave. Let's say you have 5.5 gallons of beer in a 6.5 gallon carboy. Going from room temperature (say 25 deg C) to fridge temperature (say 3 degrees C) the CO2 solubility roughly doubles. In at atmosphere of pure CO2 at 1 atm, the room temperature beer will hold ~0.85 volumes of CO2, and the cold beer will hold ~1.6 volumes of CO2. So 5.5 gallons of beer will pull in 4.1 gallons of CO2 as it's chilled. Since you only have one gallon of headspace, it's only going to pull in an additional 0.2 volumes of CO2. And that's assuming you maintain 1 atmosphere of CO2 over the beer, once you start to pull air in (as the beer absorbs CO2 and as the volume contracts due to temperature change) that's going to drop. Of course I'm simplifying the calculations a little bit, the "volumes of co2" concept is based off of 20 degree C CO2, and obviously the temperature is fluctuating here.

The thing to remember about these calculators is that they're just approximations. As you bump the carboy, you lose CO2. As it warms up a little while you're bottling, you lose CO2. As you siphon it, you lose CO2. Etc. That's why a lot of people just add 5 ounces of corn sugar and call it done. Or they keg

Thanks for the detailed explanation and reminder that its only an estimate. My first batch was the only one I ever put 5 oz in because it was way overcarbed.

 

[zachattack]

And this is kind of where the crap shoot comes into play. How much CO2 have the yeast made in a day and a half? Who knows? How much of that is already in solution vs. in the headspace waiting to escape? Again, who knows? Unless you wanted to reset them by leaving the cap off (definitely not advised) your only guessing on how much sugar to add.

OP: See why its not worth the headache to take corrective measures?

Yeah I hear ya. Accurate bottle priming is definitely just based off an educated guess. I think there are devices to measure volumes of CO2, so if one really wanted to go nuts they could use one of those. But of course you'd still lose some during siphoning and priming

 

[HopHeadSid]

I have a similar issue. As I was bottling my beer (a DIPA with additional dry hopping) I decided to put half of my bottles in the fridge and the rest left out to condition at room temp. After 2 weeks the bottles from the fridge had no carbonation, while the others were coming along fine. If I were to remove the bottles from the fridge and allow them to sit a room temp would this reverse the effect?? Or am I just stuck with half of my beers being flat?

 

[Hex23]

I have a similar issue. As I was bottling my beer (a DIPA with additional dry hopping) I decided to put half of my bottles in the fridge and the rest left out to condition at room temp. After 2 weeks the bottles from the fridge had no carbonation, while the others were coming along fine. If I were to remove the bottles from the fridge and allow them to sit a room temp would this reverse the effect?? Or am I just stuck with half of my beers being flat?

Yes, it's possible that they will carbonate if given enough time at the right temperature. But since the yeast have been shocked by the cold temps, it could take a while. At least you have half a batch you can enjoy while you wait.

 

[HopHeadSid]

That's what's I was thinking, thanks

 

[bfriend54]

To return to this thread. I was worried that I under primed my IPA with 1.4ioz of corn sugar in a 2.2 gal batch. I'm here to report that it came out just fine even after only 2 weeks



This was supposed to be around and 8.5% beer. Instead it wound up around 7% is my guess I believe I hit my OG target but the FG is not quite attenuated enough. I'm thinking it might have to with slightly higher temp fermentation than optimal. It probably was around 72 degrees on average. Maybe slightly higher at times

I wonder if the incomplete attenuation left some residual sugars in the beer that added to the carbonation. It's got plenty of carbonation despite priming it lightly

Despite all that it tastes really good and I'm happy. This was a BIAB batch. Next thing to work on is fermentation temp. Thinking of adding an external thermostat control to my spare frig in the garage next time