Bottling After Pressure Fermentation

[pawleysplayr]

I live in the Southeast and have zero space that can be committed to a fridge/freezer for temperature control.
I just brewed a pilsner in anticipation of a cold snap that would allow me to get my garage down in the low 60s for a few days for a lager ferment.
Sure enough brew day was 79 degF and raining so the dang thing has sit there at 68 degF. Hope for the best

So that got me looking into the pressure fermentation discussions.
One thing that isn't spelled out....bottling. I bottle exclusively.
Assume I was to ferment in something like the Fermzilla All Rounder with a spunding valve at 12PSI....
When fermentation is complete, how do I approach bottle filling and conditioning?
.....drop the spunding valve setting and let the beer degas before transferring to a bucket and bottling as normal?
.....or is there another approach? not fond of the idea of a trying to carbonate in the fermenter and use a counter pressure filler.

Is anyone doing this?

 

[Broken Crow]

You could transfer to a keg under pressure, finish carbonation if needed and bottle from there. For a while I bottled exclusively from a keg using the Blichmann BeerGun,.. great to have no sediment in the bottle!..and I did it without a kegerator, in a cold room in the winter. [..mind you; that turned out to being a stepping stone to getting a kegerator that summer ] These days a lot of folk are very happy with the tapcooler:
https://www.morebeer.com/products/tapcooler-counter-pressure-bottle-filler.html
EDIT: Sorry.. I don't think as fast as I used to.. If your beer is already fully carbonated and clarified to your satisfaction, you could bottle straight from a Fermzilla (or other pressure capable fermenter).. You only need a CO2 tank, regulator and lines, and a filler.be that a beergun, tapcooler, or other device for which there is a really good thread on here that I can't find right now.

 

[pawleysplayr]

Thanks Broken Crow. The problem remains that I don't have a way/place to chill a keg or fermenter down...especially on our warmer days.
So I would still be force carbonating at higher temps and trying to counter-pressure fill the bottles at higher temps....wouldn't they foam out?
Also I brew 6.25 gallon batches so that would mean 2 kegs or direct carbonating in the fermenter.

I am only assuming, but maybe depressurizing and bottle conditioning is simpler.

 

[mac_1103]

The problem remains that I don't have a way/place to chill a keg or fermenter down

This is my problem too. I don't have the space for a kegerator. Buying kegs, spunding valves and a tapcooler isn't an issue, but getting everything cold enough to bottle is.

 

[hotbeer]

There are calculators and charts for pressure fermenters that will figure out how many vols of CO2 are in the beer from your PSI you had the spunding valve set. Then give you the amount of priming sugar based on desired vols.

So you just bottle as normal and cap it. If it foams up a little, then consider that getting rid of the O2 in the headspace and a good thing.

I've seen them somewhere on the web, but since I don't do pressure fermentation I don't recall where the better ones were.

Very possibly after those that pressure ferment get through brewing today, they'll be here this evening with a better answer.

 

[DVCNick]

Even if you can't/won't get a keg, you are going to need some additional equipment (C02 bottle and some sort of ball lock attachment at a minimum) to practically get the beer out of a Fermzilla. MAYBE you could just pop and open ball lock on the gas side, an open line onto the liquid side, and siphon to a bucket below? But I wouldn't do that personally. I would do the following assuming you are starting with a Fermzilla and fermenting at 15psi:

-Get a 5lb C02 bottle and a beergun. These don't take up a whole lot of space.
-Calculate the volumes of C02 already in the beer based on your temp and pressure.
-Calculate the amount of bottle conditioning sugar you will need to get from where you are to where you want to be, and add that to each bottle.
-Bottle fill using the beergun, using low pressure/slow flow, cool bottles, etc, all the techniques that you normally use to get minimal foaming with a beergun, and you should be able to fill the bottles with no problem and will have a very low oxygen exposure on top of that.

Other than some sediment in your lager from the bottle conditioning, it should come out well this way.

 

[mac_1103]

-Bottle fill using the beergun, using low pressure/slow flow, cool bottles, etc, all the techniques that you normally use to get minimal foaming with a beergun, and you should be able to fill the bottles with no problem and will have a very low oxygen exposure on top of that.

Do you have to chill the Fermzilla? Can you just spund in a Fermzilla? I assume that you would definitely need to get it cold to bottle in that case?

 

[DVCNick]

Do you have to chill the Fermzilla? Can you just spund in a Fermzilla? I assume that you would definitely need to get it cold to bottle in that case?

It would help for clarity, but is not required.

 

[mac_1103]

It would help for clarity, but is not required.

So the beer will not foam excessively at ambient temperature even if it's fully carbonated? Or are you only talking about the method you posted?

 

[DVCNick]

At ambient temperature in 15 psi it's only going to be about half carbonated. But yes chilling would help with foam too. But using proper techniques you can probably keep it down with a beer gun.

 

[hotbeer]

So the beer will not foam excessively at ambient temperature even if it's fully carbonated? Or are you only talking about the method you posted?

At normal atmospheric pressure beer will have 1.0 to 1.1 vols of CO2 in it while it's in the FV.

At 12 PSI, the beer at 68°F will only have about 1.4 vols of CO2. So I'd think not much foaming. Unless you agitate it quite a bit by how fast the bottle gets filled.

 

[Broken Crow]

Sorry.. I forgot about foam @ ambient temps. Before my kegerator, I cracked the window in the small room and had a space-heater keeping room temps approx 35°-40° for a day and and half... it was winter.
Any chance it gets cold enough you could try something similar?

 

[mac_1103]

At 12 PSI, the beer at 68°F will only have about 1.4 vols of CO2. So I'd think not much foaming.

Right. But the Fermzilla is rated for 36 PSI. I was wondering about fully carbonating by spunding in the FV before bottling.

 

[mac_1103]

Any chance it gets cold enough you could try something similar?

Last two nights probably. But that will likely be the only time this winter. Aside from putting it outside when the projected overnight low is just right.

 

[hotbeer]

Right. But the Fermzilla is rated for 36 PSI. I was wondering about fully carbonating by spunding in the FV before bottling.

Well the OP didn't ask about that. My replies were geared toward the OP's question even though I quoted your statement.

The OP is only spunding at 12 PSI and apparently is going to naturally carbonate in the bottle.

If the OP was going to increase the spunding pressure then likely they'd have more foaming issues unless they were very very careful and filled the bottles slowly. Or a pressure bottle filler system could be used for some additional expense.

Are you asking a particular question for yourself?

 

[mac_1103]

Are you asking a particular question for yourself?

Well of course I am. It's all about me!

The OP said he was "not fond of the idea of a trying to carbonate in the fermenter and use a counter pressure filler" but then Broken Crow immediately tried to talk him into doing just that. I was just going with the flow...

 

[Broken Crow]

Well of course I am. It's all about me!

The OP said he was "not fond of the idea of a trying to carbonate in the fermenter and use a counter pressure filler" but then Broken Crow immediately tried to talk him into doing just that. I was just going with the flow...

Sorry about that... I have a limited working-memory span and by the time I've finshed reading a paragraph, I've forgetten how it began .. The problem is one I've been grappling with myself, as I have limited resources but wish to venture into styles that have demands I've yet been unable to meet, ie: temp control beyond what I use for my mainly English-style ales. I suppose I have to count myself lucky that it gets cold enough here in the winter I could crash, keg, bottle with what was available and save up cash to buy a used kegerator months later when the weather got warm.
Some sort of temp control seems to be the only solution for anything not covered in the 'Warm Fermeted Lager' thread, and like the OP, I'm just not there yet and it's frustrating.

 

[mac_1103]

I count myself lucky that my basement stays between 63F and 68F all year round. And I'm not dying to make proper lagers anyway. So I don't control fermentation temperature but I do monitor it and I've never had a batch stray from the target range.

But this thread got me thinking that an all-rounder and a tapcooler could be a reasonably affordable alternative to bottle conditioning everything and an easier way to reduce O2 exposure "purging" every bottle with wine preserver or my soda stream. The all-rounder isn't too much bigger than a bucket or carboy, so I could probably squeeze it into my basement fridge for a few days before bottling. Now I just have to figure out getting all, those bottles cold.

 

[DVCNick]

My guess is that if you try to carb in a Fermzilla at 30+ PSI at room temp, 1) It is near the limit of the pressure rating of the vessel, so you can't go over that and therefore it will take a long time to get it carbed, and 2) I would bet you will have a much higher probability of significant foaming issues upon transfer.

 

[pawleysplayr]

Sorry.. I forgot about foam @ ambient temps. Before my kegerator, I cracked the window in the small room and had a space-heater keeping room temps approx 35°-40° for a day and and half... it was winter.
Any chance it gets cold enough you could try something similar?

That's the whole problem I'm addressing really... Winters here are not really cold per se, or at least not for long. 2-3 week cycles where it get to upper 60s low 70s then rains, temps drop and steadily start rising. Repeat.

 

[pawleysplayr]

There are calculators and charts for pressure fermenters that will figure out how many vols of CO2 are in the beer from your PSI you had the spunding valve set. Then give you the amount of priming sugar based on desired vols.

So you just bottle as normal and cap it. If it foams up a little, then consider that getting rid of the O2 in the headspace and a good thing.

I've seen them somewhere on the web, but since I don't do pressure fermentation I don't recall where the better ones were.

Very possibly after those that pressure ferment get through brewing today, they'll be here this evening with a better answer.

The foaming from the additional carbonation at that temperature is an unknown for me for sure. Both in the bottles and the bottling bucket....
With those calculators then....My hopes are that I can gently transfer onto the priming sugar in the bottling bucket without excessive foaming there also.
That would be the simplest solution for me.

 

[pawleysplayr]

Even if you can't/won't get a keg, you are going to need some additional equipment (C02 bottle and some sort of ball lock attachment at a minimum) to practically get the beer out of a Fermzilla. MAYBE you could just pop and open ball lock on the gas side, an open line onto the liquid side, and siphon to a bucket below? But I wouldn't do that personally. I would do the following assuming you are starting with a Fermzilla and fermenting at 15psi:

-Get a 5lb C02 bottle and a beergun. These don't take up a whole lot of space.
-Calculate the volumes of C02 already in the beer based on your temp and pressure.
-Calculate the amount of bottle conditioning sugar you will need to get from where you are to where you want to be, and add that to each bottle.
-Bottle fill using the beergun, using low pressure/slow flow, cool bottles, etc, all the techniques that you normally use to get minimal foaming with a beergun, and you should be able to fill the bottles with no problem and will have a very low oxygen exposure on top of that.

Other than some sediment in your lager from the bottle conditioning, it should come out well this way.

I do have a CO tank and regulator from when I kegged in another beer life years ago.
Just not an option now .
I hope to avoid the counter pressure filler....or ditch the idea of pressure fermenting at all.
I know me .... if it becomes too much of a pain I won't mess with it

 

[jerrylotto]

One possibility (what I do) is to put sugar solution into your keg and purge it of oxygen, then close transfer from the fermzilla to the keg. Keep it room temperature for a day or two so that the priming sugar ferments and you'll get a decent pressure. You then want to cool the Keg as much as you can to dissolve maximum CO2 in the beer and then bottle with a beer wand directly from the keg. One way to cool your keg might be to submerge it in cold water in the tub. You can even add ice to help keep it cold. I've used this method in a garbage can to cool an entire fermzilla down running water out of a garden hose. There's no reason not to use jacketed cooling even if you have to make your own jacket

 

[pawleysplayr]

I count myself lucky that my basement stays between 63F and 68F all year round. And I'm not dying to make proper lagers anyway. So I don't control fermentation temperature but I do monitor it and I've never had a batch stray from the target range.

But this thread got me thinking that an all-rounder and a tapcooler could be a reasonably affordable alternative to bottle conditioning everything and an easier way to reduce O2 exposure "purging" every bottle with wine preserver or my soda stream. The all-rounder isn't too much bigger than a bucket or carboy, so I could probably squeeze it into my basement fridge for a few days before bottling. Now I just have to figure out getting all, those bottles cold.

My situation is similar but maybe ave temps a little bit warmer.
I currently do 6+ gallon batches in big mouthed bubblers in a semi-conditioned garage space.
The natural fermentation temperature for those batches when left to their own devices is 67-72 degF.
I have the means, but not the physical space for fridge/freezer. I've had the full keg setup years ago ...I know all the configurations....there is no room.
And....an evaporative chiller does not work in the swamps of the southeast
As to proper lagers....I am making many ales and enjoying them....but this time of the year really I really makes me want to get some nice clean lagers in the bottle getting reading for the spring/summer. If the pressure fermenting makes this (or a close rendition) I'd like to give it a shot. But I wanted to reach out to the guys who have been doing this tp make sure I wasn't setting myself up for an obvious mess

 

[Broken Crow]

Just a long shot, but trying to help (plus I'm considering it myself);.. Any chance you have space outside you could put a fridge?
I have some friends that have a fridge full of beer/cider/mead year round, outside next to their deck.. I've been thinking of something similar that I could throw a Fermzilla in.

 

[pawleysplayr]

Just a long shot, but trying to help (plus I'm considering it myself);.. Any chance you have space outside you could put a fridge?
I have some friends that have a fridge full of beer/cider/mead year round, outside next to their deck.. I've been thinking of something similar that I could throw a Fermzilla in.

It is a possibility but the potential location is so far away from my brew area....I can't see me lugging 6 gallons back and forth.

 

[hotbeer]

....My hopes are that I can gently transfer onto the priming sugar in the bottling bucket without excessive foaming there also.

I'd make a sugar solution to put in the priming pot. If you use dry sugar, it might act as nucleation points for the CO2 to start bubbling out of solution fast.

Though again, at 12 PSI you aren't going to have much more carbonation than you would if you hadn't pressure fermented. So I wouldn't expect much trouble other than brief foam ups from turbulence created while filling or from something, like sugar that gives nucleation points.

So essentially, don't fill the bottles fast. At least till you see how it behaves. But... this is all from someone that is guessing and hasn't done pressure fermenting. So let us know what you finally do and how it went.

 

[Knkbrand]

..drop the spunding valve setting and let the beer degas. use carbonation drops in each bottle, and transfer straight from the fermzilla to each bottle.

 

[pawleysplayr]

I'd make a sugar solution to put in the priming pot. If you use dry sugar, it might act as nucleation points for the CO2 to start bubbling out of solution fast.

Though again, at 12 PSI you aren't going to have much more carbonation than you would if you hadn't pressure fermented. So I wouldn't expect much trouble other than brief foam ups from turbulence created while filling or from something, like sugar that gives nucleation points.

So essentially, don't fill the bottles fast. At least till you see how it behaves. But... this is all from someone that is guessing and hasn't done pressure fermenting. So let us know what you finally do and how it went.

I do make a solution....I just forgot to spell that out. Good point tho.
If I purchase the all-rounder and try this I certainly will post my opinions of the process.
Interesting that this hasn't been much a conversation before. I guess there are fewer and fewer exclusive bottlers out there.

 

[pawleysplayr]

..drop the spunding valve setting and let the beer degas. use carbonation drops in each bottle, and transfer straight from the fermzilla to each bottle.

Have you tried this Knkbrand? or just putting this procedure out as a good one to try?

 

[Knkbrand]

Have you tried this Knkbrand? or just putting this procedure out as a good one to try?

I don't use carbonation drops, but I purge a keg using Starsan and CO2. I add my sugar to a purged Brown PET bottle. Pressurize my PET bottle higher than my keg. I use a quick disconnects and a short tube to attach the brown PET bottle to the purged keg. The higher pressure in the PET bottle forces the sugarwater into the purged keg. I then transfer the beer from my pressure fermentation vessle into the purged jkeg with sugar water, then I bottle from the keg. I suggested the carbonation drops becuase It would be a lot less work. I mostly keg, but bottle sours and stouts as I don't drink them as often. You will need CO2 to push the beer from the fermzilla out into the bottles. You may be be able to gravity feed if the fermentation vessle is high enough and you release the pressure valve, but you run the risk of higher oxydation. Pushing with CO2 would be better. I believe you mentioned you have CO2 but I may be mistaken. Using carbonation drops you can just transfer straight from the fermentation vessle into bottles, this would require less equipment/work. Most pressure fermentation vessles use a floating dip tube, so you would stop filling bottles once the beer starts getting cloudy. Not really a big deal since you will be bottle conditioning, beer will clear in the bottles.

Definitely many ways to skin this cat.

 

[pawleysplayr]

I don't use carbonation drops, but I purge a keg using Starsan and CO2. I add my sugar to a purged Brown PET bottle. Pressurize my PET bottle higher than my keg. I use a quick disconnects and a short tube to attach the brown PET bottle to the purged keg. The higher pressure in the PET bottle forces the sugarwater into the purged keg. I then transfer the beer from my pressure fermentation vessle into the purged jkeg with sugar water, then I bottle. I suggested the carbonation drops becuase It would be a lot less work. I mostly keg, but bottle sours and stouts as I don't drink them as often. You will need CO2 to push the beer from the fermzilla out into the bottles. You may be be able to gravity feed if the fermentation vessle is high enough and you release the pressure valve, but you run the risk of higher oxydation. Pushing with CO2 would be better. I believe you mentioned you have CO2 but I may be mistaken. Using carbonation drops you can just transfer straight from the fermentation vessle into bottles, this would require less equipment/work. Most pressure fermentation vessles use a floating dip tube, so you would stop filling bottles once the beer starts getting cloudy. Not really a big deal since you will be bottle conditioning, beer will clear in the bottles.

Thanks for that description. Very interesting process.
I think if I pursue this pressure fermentation a modified version of this will be what I try....without the keg....and understanding the potential for oxygen exposure.



Maybe something like:
1. Try both to see which works best for me:
a. Starting without degassing to reduce carbonation and calculate priming sugar based on that pressure.
b. Degassing to near atmosphere by reducing spunding valce for a period of time and calculate priming sugar.
2. Add dissolved priming sugar to bottling bucket.
3. Transfer beer from fermenter to bottling bucket using CO2 tank and regulator (gently)
4. Bottle as normal.

 

[Knkbrand]

that would work for sure. Lots of different ways to tackle this for sure. I would aim to skip the bottling bucket all together, but the bottling bucket would work. I love my pressure fermentation vessle. Makes good lagers at room temp.

 

[pawleysplayr]

that would work for sure. Lots of different ways to tackle this for sure. I would aim to skip the bottling bucket all together, but the bottling bucket would work.

I started brewing in '92 on a 1/2 barrel system and went right to kegs. I quit around 2005 or so.
I had never bottled or bottle conditioned before this year when I decided to start back...well 2022

The bottling bucket is only in there to solve a problem I had early on....

I would add the dissolved sugar to the bottling bucket....and if I did not stir a bit, the sugar would stratify.....or this is the only explanation I can come up with.
Some bottles would carbonate....others flat as heck. No other defects.

Only once I started stirring gently before bottling did this go away.....was frustrating as heck.

That is why I kept the bottling bucket in the proposed process above....I have no other way to easily get the priming sugar into the beer and reliable mixed otherwise.

 

[Knkbrand]

I started brewing in '92 on a 1/2 barrel system and went right to kegs. I quit around 2005 or so.
I had never bottled or bottle conditioned before this year when I decided to start back...well 2022

The bottling bucket is only in there to solve a problem I had early on....

I would add the dissolved sugar to the bottling bucket....and if I did not stir a bit, the sugar would stratify.....or this is the only explanation I can come up with.
Some bottles would carbonate....others flat as heck. No other defects.

Only once I started stirring gently before bottling did this go away.....was frustrating as heck.

That is why I kept the bottling bucket in the proposed process above....I have no other way to easily get the priming sugar into the beer and reliable mixed otherwise.

yep, i had that issue as well, the sugar settling. That is why I use the purged keg, so I can roll it around and keep it mixed. I have used brewers best conditioning tabs, they are easy and work well, just expensive compared to corn sugar. you put anywhere from 3-5 in each bottle (depending on desired carbonation) before adding beer to bottle. You could then go straight from the fermentation vessle to each bottle bypassing the bucket.

 

[Ronald C Gregory]

One possibility (what I do) is to put sugar solution into your keg and purge it of oxygen, then close transfer from the fermzilla to the keg. Keep it room temperature for a day or two so that the priming sugar ferments and you'll get a decent pressure. You then want to cool the Keg as much as you can to dissolve maximum CO2 in the beer and then bottle with a beer wand directly from the keg. One way to cool your keg might be to submerge it in cold water in the tub. You can even add ice to help keep it cold. I've used this method in a garbage can to cool an entire fermzilla down running water out of a garden hose. There's no reason not to use jacketed cooling even if you have to make your own jacket

I'm getting ready to pressure ferment in a Keg starting later this week. Can i make an inexpensive adapter to my Keg that connects to a spring loaded bottling wand? something like just the connecter to the keg enough 3/8th line coming off of it and connect my wand to that then bottle that way? or does the pressure kill the wand? I can make the bottling wand adapter with spare parts at my LHBS easily. and I have a small garbage can that i fill with ice around my keg to quickly cool from about 60-64F where its stored in my basement.

 

[jerrylotto]

I'd advise getting a bottling gun. They are designed to bottle directly from a keg. I have the Blichmann gun and it works very well as long as the beer is carbonated and cold and the bottles are chilled. Of course if you are going to prime the keg with sugar, you don't need to chill anything and I've used that method as well bottling immediately after transferring to the keg.

 

[Ronald C Gregory]

I'd advise getting a bottling gun. They are designed to bottle directly from a keg. I have the Blichmann gun and it works very well as long as the beer is carbonated and cold and the bottles are chilled. Of course if you are going to prime the keg with sugar, you don't need to chill anything and I've used that method as well bottling immediately after transferring to the keg.

OK as a stop gap I'll make an adapter and hose for the output side of my keg and just crash the temp. I dont plan on bottling all the time but i would like the option since I'm not making a kegerator anytime soon

 

[wdavis2003]

As to proper lagers....I am making many ales and enjoying them....but this time of the year really I really makes me want to get some nice clean lagers in the bottle getting reading for the spring/summer. If the pressure fermenting makes this (or a close rendition) I'd like to give it a shot.

Pressure fermenting lagers with the Fermzilla has drastically increased the quality of my lagers. My best one to date, a pilsner using S-23 got up to 75 degrees in the fermzilla. Turned out crisp, clean, malty and my buddy said it's one of the best he's had.

When you figure out your conundrum you will be enjoying fantastic lagers.

 

[Civilian]

I plan to switch to kegging but a friend doesn't but we both want to pressure ferment and transfer to a bottle bucket (temporally for me). Couldn't i just dump the trub a couple times if necessary and then attach something to one of the bottom transfer caps and gravity transfer?