Bottle infections suck!

[Beernik]

I probably missed it, when you take the gravity reading of the gushers, do you let the beer go completely flat before taking the reading?

I'm asking because I remembered my fluid dynamics last night. Bubbles in a water body will reduce the buoyancy of a floating body. If the beer is still carbed, you could be getting a false gravity reading on the gushers.

 

[homebrewdad]

I probably missed it, when you take the gravity reading of the gushers, do you let the beer go completely flat before taking the reading?

I'm asking because I remembered my fluid dynamics last night. Bubbles in a water body will reduce the buoyancy of a floating body. If the beer is still carbed, you could be getting a false gravity reading on the gushers.

I do let it go completely flat. Thanks!

 

[srtce142]

Do you ferment in glass or plastic? Are the contaminated batches all from the same fermenter?

I had a couple batches with contamination in the fermenter and noticed that it was the same fermenter used back-to-back. Inspection of this vessel (plastic carboy) shows some deformation at the bottom. I suspect this vessel is compromised and have replaced it. I fear I contaminated my bottling equipment from these batches and have the slow gushers in two other batches.

As someone going through similar issues and is just as frustrated, my advice is to not feel guilty about replacing equipment. Especially when new equipment costs less than a bad batch of beer.

 

[homebrewdad]

Do you ferment in glass or plastic? Are the contaminated batches all from the same fermenter?

I had a couple batches with contamination in the fermenter and noticed that it was the same fermenter used back-to-back. Inspection of this vessel (plastic carboy) shows some deformation at the bottom. I suspect this vessel is compromised and have replaced it. I fear I contaminated my bottling equipment from these batches and have the slow gushers in two other batches.

As someone going through similar issues and is just as frustrated, my advice is to not feel guilty about replacing equipment. Especially when new equipment costs less than a bad batch of beer.

Glass carboys, so I feel fine about that. I did purchase new bottling gear yesterday, so we'll see what happens.

 

[smizak]

Good luck

 

[homebrewdad]

Good luck

Thanks! Just about to whip up some star san now and begin bottling my roggenbier in my brand spanking new bucket.

 

[balrog]

HBDad, I've asked a couple of long-time brewer friends of mine about this, and besides some of the same suggestions here, have gotten the following tidbits to my "fine for while but eventually foams" issue: they felt if infections were in spigot or tubing, I"d see it sooner; because I store at 70's perhaps yeasties just continue converting every single possible sugar; and since my personal issue seems to have started with warm weather, not covering the bottling bucket during that process allowed wild yeast in.

I'm still going to replace spigot and tubing, but will be covering from now on. The kitchen is a well-travelled and well-used cooking and baking spot for us, and I do most processes near sink/dishwasher with large, open window.

Thought I'd pass that along. Best of luck with your new bottling equipment and let us know here in 6-8 weeks whether there was a difference!

 

[homebrewdad]

HBDad, I've asked a couple of long-time brewer friends of mine about this, and besides some of the same suggestions here, have gotten the following tidbits to my "fine for while but eventually foams" issue: they felt if infections were in spigot or tubing, I"d see it sooner; because I store at 70's perhaps yeasties just continue converting every single possible sugar; and since my personal issue seems to have started with warm weather, not covering the bottling bucket during that process allowed wild yeast in.

I'm still going to replace spigot and tubing, but will be covering from now on. The kitchen is a well-travelled and well-used cooking and baking spot for us, and I do most processes near sink/dishwasher with large, open window.

Thought I'd pass that along. Best of luck with your new bottling equipment and let us know here in 6-8 weeks whether there was a difference!

Thanks, man. Things I did differently last night:

Used a bottle washer on all of the bottles prior to sanitizing (my company was kind enough to buy one for me).

Boiled my silicone tubing for 15 minutes (I had planned to replace this, but the LHBS doesn't carry silicone, and I just can't go back to vinyl).

Kept my bucket covered at all times - I bought a new one with a lid.

Siphoned the beer in first to ensure a dead on measurement of volume (to prevent overcarb, even though I know this was not the issue), added the priming solution on top of this and stirred the heck out of the beer.

Placed sanitized lids immediately on the bottles upon filling, as opposed at my normal method of filling all bottles at once, then capping one at a time. I still did the fill of all bottles before crimping any, but the lid on the bottle should have prevented anything from falling in at that point.


We'll see how it goes.

 

[balrog]

Good point about the bottle filling/capping; I do a dozen at a time. Will change that. I also may (MAY) be mis-remembering whether my Vinator Star San'd bottles on bottle tree really stay wet, and may Vinate 3-4, fill and immediately set cap, capper those.

Silicone, eh? Hmm. Something to think about. Not crazy about my vinyl actually.

 

[homebrewdad]

It took me seven minutes to vinate all 48 bottles; I felt pretty good about hanging them all, as my bottle tree branches were still wet (I disassemble the tree, then dunk the branches in starsan). Place cases of bottles on the ground, vinator on the table, bottle tree on ground. Pump five times, rotating the bottle, dunk the end of the bottle in starsan, hang on tree. Repeat x 47.

Silicone is *amazing*. No memory at all, so none of that annoying curling in the tubing. Never gets stuck on your bottle wand, auto siphon, etc. Hot temps are no problem for it. If it gets dirty, you can boil it to sterilize.

Costs $2 a foot, but so worth it.

 

[homebrewdad]

When you say "hit your target gravity" do you test gravity over multiple days to ensure it is stable, or just test once and bottle if it is at the predicted gravity from your software?

We've covered this ground a couple of times in the thread. With the exception of an IPA I was pushing to get bottled (to preserve aroma), I only take a FG reading at bottling time. However, this is typically at least four weeks past brewdate.

At four weeks in, 99.9% of beers are long since done fermenting. I might allow that one batch was not (despite hitting or exceeding my target gravity), but not five.

 

[motleybrew]

Just a thought; how are you calculating priming sugar amounts and what type of sugar do you use?

It took me a while to realize that beersmith was assuming I was using corn sugar when I just table sugar. Turns out you need different amounts based on the type of sugar.

 

[homebrewdad]

Just a thought; how are you calculating priming sugar amounts and what type of sugar do you use?

It took me a while to realize that beersmith was assuming I was using corn sugar when I just table sugar. Turns out you need different amounts based on the type of sugar.

Thanks. I use the priming sugar calculator that I wrote. I use table sugar measured to the gram, boiled in water, added to the bottling bucket. I account properly for temps and volume.

 

[jfr1111]

Report back after bottling. A (very) unlikely culprit could be some sort of biofilm or residue that stays in the inside of the bottle but is invisible to the eye, which can harbour and protect wild yeast and/or bacteria from StarSan (mineral deposists, oxy clean residue, etc). You could try bottling half a batch with brand new bottles and the other with your old bottles and see if they all gush.

I'd also check your pH to see if it's low enough for Star San to work properly, as recommended. This seems like a very low cost option to insure peace of mind.

 

[homebrewdad]

Report back after bottling. A (very) unlikely culprit could be some sort of biofilm or residue that stays in the inside of the bottle but is invisible to the eye, which can harbour and protect wild yeast and/or bacteria from StarSan (mineral deposists, oxy clean residue, etc). You could try bottling half a batch with brand new bottles and the other with your old bottles and see if they all gush.

I'd also check your pH to see if it's low enough for Star San to work properly, as recommended. This seems like a very low cost option to insure peace of mind.

I'll report back, bottled Saturday night. I doubt it's a biofilm issue - I've seen this in both reused and new bottles.

 

[balrog]

Report back after bottling. A (very) unlikely culprit could be some sort of biofilm or residue that stays in the inside of the bottle but is invisible to the eye, which can harbour and protect wild yeast and/or bacteria from StarSan (mineral deposists, oxy clean residue, etc). You could try bottling half a batch with brand new bottles and the other with your old bottles and see if they all gush.

I'd also check your pH to see if it's low enough for Star San to work properly, as recommended. This seems like a very low cost option to insure peace of mind.

Would biofilm survive a hot water/oxy/tsp/bottle-brush soak/scrub?

 

[jfr1111]

Would biofilm survive a hot water/oxy/tsp/bottle-brush soak/scrub?

It probably could in areas where the brush cannot get good scrubbing action (near the bottom in bombers, for example). I once broke a bottle that I was trying for the 5 times or so to get clean (there was still tiny black specks of something in one spot in the bottle) and the inside was still slimy after about 5 applications of oxyclean followed by a near boiling water rinse and bottle scrubbing. Oxyclean is great, I use it to clean my sutff too, but it's a not a panacea and might not rinse as well as we think depending on our water and the application.

I bake all bottle btw and I would like to have an all metal and silicone setup for cold beer applications, but it's not an option for now. I'm always weary of the bottling wand, vinyl line and autosiphon since they have hard to reach places and might no rinse as clean as we think they do. Which is finy, until you get systemic infection like homebrewdad seems to have, other issues notwhithstanding.

 

[UltraMN]

If you use the "oven" (dry heat) method, and cook at 350 for 1 hour, or 200 for 12 hours. It should kill everything. I'd imagine even if there's crud on there, it would be dead crud.

 

[pdxal]

So, what's the status of the beer you last bottled? Tried one yet?

 

[homebrewdad]

Seven plus weeks into bottles. Have had multiple beers from the batch.

I'm happy to report that I see zero issues related to bottle infections - it looks like the new regimen has taken care of the problems.

Sadly, I screwed up this beer through my own stupidity. It's drinkable, but nowhere near as good as it would have been had I not overthought things/overreacted.

Here's a blog post, if you care to read.

 

[balrog]

Seven plus weeks into bottles. Have had multiple beers from the batch.

I'm happy to report that I see zero issues related to bottle infections - it looks like the new regimen has taken care of the problems.

Ok! Good news indeed. I have gotten silicone tubing and a new spigot but did not replace bucket or wand. Haven't tried using it yet. I also like the idea of covered equipment while in storage--that is something I also should do and don't.

Sorry to hear the beer was "meh". But thanks for the update and the things to consider in my own process.

 

[homebrewdad]

Ok! Good news indeed. I have gotten silicone tubing and a new spigot but did not replace bucket or wand. Haven't tried using it yet. I also like the idea of covered equipment while in storage--that is something I also should do and don't.

Sorry to hear the beer was "meh". But thanks for the update and the things to consider in my own process.

Happy to share. Good luck with your own process!

As for the beer... well, such is trying to make a recipe (especially with lots of unknown factors) meet a mental expectation. I've had great luck in the past, but there are bound to be misses.

I will probably try again at some point. If this beer were maltier (and obviously, not so watery), I'd be really happy. If I could get that big banana, too...

I've read that open fermentation drastically increases banana. I may try this.

 

[balrog]

I just can't wrap my brain around the banana, so good luck with that. My last two batches have suffered underpitch or something--very clove-ish and using two different (but old) liquid yeasts. So I'm still trying to get my overall process down after having initial success for a dozen+ batches but lately very discouraged on 3 of the last 4.

 

[homebrewdad]

I just can't wrap my brain around the banana, so good luck with that. My last two batches have suffered underpitch or something--very clove-ish and using two different (but old) liquid yeasts. So I'm still trying to get my overall process down after having initial success for a dozen+ batches but lately very discouraged on 3 of the last 4.

lol @ banana. You're not the first to give me that.

What strain are you using? What temp do you ferment at? Do you make good starters? How to you oxygenate?

 

[balrog]

My issues are many.
I use liquid yeast vials.
I do not make starters.
I do have a small Fermentation Chamber and temp control, probe taped to side and insulated from ambient.

I purchase thinking I’ll brew then Life interferes and suddenly I’m pitching a vial 8 weeks later; sometimes 5weeks.

First clove was intentional, I made a Hefeweizen. It was okay but not my thing.

Then I made an Octoberfest-style ale with a Kolsch yeast, 60°F fermentation, that had distinct clove. I thought, “well, it was another German yeast like the Hefe, maybe that’s why.”

Then I made a simple pale ale with US West Coast style liquid. Fermented at 65°, ramped to 68 for a few days after 2 weeks, took sample and it tasted like the Hefeweizen to me.

That’s when I read about under-pitching causing phenols, which can be clove (or medicinal or bandaid; neither of which this tastes like—it is simply clove). In both of these last two batches, the lag time prior to seeing the telltale exothermic fermentation was nearly 5 days.

So my most recent was a Porter, and I tried making a starter, but the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry and the starter was only 7hrs old when I pitched. However, I saw the exothermic data within 24 hours, done in about 30 hours, ramped temp all the way to 70 over 3 days, held for 3, then to 50. Two weeks since brew day I took a gravity reading and it’s 1.021. I’m flummoxed. Extract and steeping grains. I sanitized a long spoon and stirred the sucker up and will look in a week.

This hobby is getting discouraging. But the data seems to point to:
a) Make a real starter, really in advance (just finished and tested stir plate)
b) Measure gravity 10 days in and react; just letting it go 2-3 weeks isn’t working for me on English strains
c) Screw the clarifying (rack to “bright tank&#8221 – just ferment then bottle
d) Stop buying in advance. Older is only really good in antiques; not so good in yeast
e) Keep trying. Never give up. Never surrernder.

 

[mdbrewer1]

My issues are many.
I use liquid yeast vials.
I do not make starters.
I do have a small Fermentation Chamber and temp control, probe taped to side and insulated from ambient.

I purchase thinking I’ll brew then Life interferes and suddenly I’m pitching a vial 8 weeks later; sometimes 5weeks.

First clove was intentional, I made a Hefeweizen. It was okay but not my thing.

Then I made an Octoberfest-style ale with a Kolsch yeast, 60°F fermentation, that had distinct clove. I thought, “well, it was another German yeast like the Hefe, maybe that’s why.”

Then I made a simple pale ale with US West Coast style liquid. Fermented at 65°, ramped to 68 for a few days after 2 weeks, took sample and it tasted like the Hefeweizen to me.

That’s when I read about under-pitching causing phenols, which can be clove (or medicinal or bandaid; neither of which this tastes like—it is simply clove). In both of these last two batches, the lag time prior to seeing the telltale exothermic fermentation was nearly 5 days.

So my most recent was a Porter, and I tried making a starter, but the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry and the starter was only 7hrs old when I pitched. However, I saw the exothermic data within 24 hours, done in about 30 hours, ramped temp all the way to 70 over 3 days, held for 3, then to 50. Two weeks since brew day I took a gravity reading and it’s 1.021. I’m flummoxed. Extract and steeping grains. I sanitized a long spoon and stirred the sucker up and will look in a week.

This hobby is getting discouraging. But the data seems to point to:
a) Make a real starter, really in advance (just finished and tested stir plate)
b) Measure gravity 10 days in and react; just letting it go 2-3 weeks isn’t working for me on English strains
c) Screw the clarifying (rack to “bright tank”) – just ferment then bottle
d) Stop buying in advance. Older is only really good in antiques; not so good in yeast
e) Keep trying. Never give up. Never surrernder.

Sounds like you have a good grasp on what you should try in order to improve. One of my neighbors shared a beer with a strong soapy flavor and I asked him what he thought it was and he hadn't even tried to figure out. He made the exact same recipe again and for all I know is planning to do the same things he did last time.

With your approach, you're bound to get there. Don't throw in the towel. I'm sure the first really good beer will be oh so rewarding.

 

[homebrewdad]

My issues are many.
I use liquid yeast vials.
I do not make starters.
I do have a small Fermentation Chamber and temp control, probe taped to side and insulated from ambient.

I purchase thinking I’ll brew then Life interferes and suddenly I’m pitching a vial 8 weeks later; sometimes 5weeks.

First clove was intentional, I made a Hefeweizen. It was okay but not my thing.

Then I made an Octoberfest-style ale with a Kolsch yeast, 60°F fermentation, that had distinct clove. I thought, “well, it was another German yeast like the Hefe, maybe that’s why.”

Then I made a simple pale ale with US West Coast style liquid. Fermented at 65°, ramped to 68 for a few days after 2 weeks, took sample and it tasted like the Hefeweizen to me.

That’s when I read about under-pitching causing phenols, which can be clove (or medicinal or bandaid; neither of which this tastes like—it is simply clove). In both of these last two batches, the lag time prior to seeing the telltale exothermic fermentation was nearly 5 days.

So my most recent was a Porter, and I tried making a starter, but the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry and the starter was only 7hrs old when I pitched. However, I saw the exothermic data within 24 hours, done in about 30 hours, ramped temp all the way to 70 over 3 days, held for 3, then to 50. Two weeks since brew day I took a gravity reading and it’s 1.021. I’m flummoxed. Extract and steeping grains. I sanitized a long spoon and stirred the sucker up and will look in a week.

This hobby is getting discouraging. But the data seems to point to:
a) Make a real starter, really in advance (just finished and tested stir plate)
b) Measure gravity 10 days in and react; just letting it go 2-3 weeks isn’t working for me on English strains
c) Screw the clarifying (rack to “bright tank”) – just ferment then bottle
d) Stop buying in advance. Older is only really good in antiques; not so good in yeast
e) Keep trying. Never give up. Never surrernder.

The two biggest tings you can do to improve your beer are to control fermentation temperatures (which you are doing) and to pitch enough healthy yeast (which you are not doing, but are aware of). Seriously, using a good yeast calculator and a stirplate can be a night and day difference in the quality of your beer.

Be sure to aerate well, also. If you don't have pure O2 and a diffusion stone, at least rock and splash the fermentor like crazy for a couple of minutes before you pitch yeast.

Absolutely do NOT rack to secondary in almost any situation.

Honestly, item b on your list is the least important. If you control temps, pitch enough healthy yeast, and properly aerate, odds of having a normal beer NOT be done in 2-3 weeks are next to zero.

 

[Beernik]

So my most recent was a Porter, and I tried making a starter, but the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry and the starter was only 7hrs old when I pitched. However, I saw the exothermic data within 24 hours, done in about 30 hours, ramped temp all the way to 70 over 3 days, held for 3, then to 50. Two weeks since brew day I took a gravity reading and it’s 1.021. I’m flummoxed. Extract and steeping grains. I sanitized a long spoon and stirred the sucker up and will look in a week.

This hobby is getting discouraging. But the data seems to point to:
a) Make a real starter, really in advance (just finished and tested stir plate)
b) Measure gravity 10 days in and react; just letting it go 2-3 weeks isn’t working for me on English strains
c) Screw the clarifying (rack to “bright tank”) – just ferment then bottle
d) Stop buying in advance. Older is only really good in antiques; not so good in yeast
e) Keep trying. Never give up. Never surrernder.

The more I play around with temperature control, the more I've decided that the temperature range that they give for yeast strains doesn't mean "if you always stay inside this range you'll be okay." It means "pitch and start fermentation at the low end and if temperatures climb towards the middle or high end of the range at the end of fermentation, that's okay."

So if the yeast strain says, "60F to 72F". Pitch near 60F and its okay if it climbs to 72F over a week. The lower pitch temp means you are less likely to create off flavors and the rise in temperature will help the yeast clean up any that are made.

Letting it drop from 70F to 50F probably shocked the yeast into dormancy.

 

[balrog]

Dormancy was what I was after, since I can't really "cold crash" I can only "limp to lower temp in slumping motion".

I only did the "go to 50" after doing 65 to 68 to 70 first. Then I measured a high SG and am letting it just do whatever's ambient temp