Bottle infections suck!

[homebrewdad]

Are you experiencing certain over-carbonation or just gushing? Do you store your beer cold?

After some extended cold conditioning I'll see the flocculated chill haze proteins clinging to the sides of the bottle after it drops clear and has been sitting undisturbed for some time. In your case, maybe this is providing nucleation points for the beer to over-foam after extended cold conditioning, and these proteins didn't have time to form in younger bottles.

Sadly, it's both. I measure gravity drops in these bottles, so naturally, they are overcarbed.

 

[cannman]

If the tap water has too much CA or carbonates or hardness it can cause the resultant StarSan to be out of the PH range that makes it a sanitizer. *USUALLY* it would produce a cloudy mixture immediately.

I use IOStar Iodine. Would I experience cloudiness?

(Sorry for hijacking the thread... kinds. All useful information though!)

 

[balrog]

Don't know about that product, sorry.



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[Hello]

Woah wait, tap water and sanitizer is a no-no???

No its not. You simply need to be sure the pH is low enough. I think star san is effective at a pH of 3.5.


OP: If there are no signs of infection then why are you saying there is an infection? Or did I misunderstand?

Not if the infection is simply a wild yeast. It's already showing the signs it would show.

I don't suspect lacto, pedio, etc. There is no pellicle, there are really no off flavors.
Today 09:57 AM

 

[homebrewdad]

No its not. You simply need to be sure the pH is low enough. I think star san is effective at a pH of 3.5.


OP: If there are no signs of infection then why are you saying there is an infection? Or did I misunderstand?

I'm not seeing flavor issues. I'm seeing bottles that seem to be fine start gushing a few weeks down the road. No sourness, tartness, etc.

 

[brdb]

Take my bock, for instance. WLP920 took it from 1.077 down to 1.017. Listed attenuation for the strain is 66%-73%; I got 78%. If you're telling me that fermentation was still going on, I'll smile politely and go on about my business.

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that fermentation was still going on. The manufacturer's site lists an average attenuation, but just because you surpass the average does not mean your fermentation is done. Attenuation depends on a lot of things, mash temp (assuming all grain), healthy yeast, fermentation temp, etc. I use S-05 in almost all of my brews and if my memory serves me correct I believe Fermentis lists an average attenuation in the neighborhood of 75%, but I routinely see 83-85% attenuation. Before you go and replace everything, I would take a bottle, let it go flat, and then take a gravity reading. If it is still at 1.017 then you were correct and fermentation was done, but if it is a couple points lower then that could explain your gushing bottles.

 

[homebrewdad]

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that fermentation was still going on. The manufacturer's site lists an average attenuation, but just because you surpass the average does not mean your fermentation is done. Attenuation depends on a lot of things, mash temp (assuming all grain), healthy yeast, fermentation temp, etc. I use S-05 in almost all of my brews and if my memory serves me correct I believe Fermentis lists an average attenuation in the neighborhood of 75%, but I routinely see 83-85% attenuation. Before you go and replace everything, I would take a bottle, let it go flat, and then take a gravity reading. If it is still at 1.017 then you were correct and fermentation was done, but if it is a couple points lower then that could explain your gushing bottles.

Okay, it would not be unreasonable to assume ON ONE BATCH. On multiple batches where I hit my target gravity - or exceed it - and leave the beer for at least four weeks before bottling, it's unreasonable to assume that every one of them was still not done (especially with things like English ale yeasts that work hard and fast, then flocc out like bricks).

Gravity is lower in the bottles once this happens. No kidding, that's what's causing the gushing. I get that. What I don't get is what is causing the fermentation. My best guess is a wild yeast in my bottling gear.

 

[giraffe]

Well its not bacteria, as there are not off flavors. Its not mutated yeast cause you arent reharvesting. I dont think its wild yeast or brett, cause your beer is clearing in 4 weeks, which if there is enough wild yeast to cause a problem, Id think you couldnt read a newspaper through the bottle. You are convinced you arent over priming. That doesnt leave much.

Do you fine the beers at all? If not, I wonder if cold conditioning in the bottle is dropping out excessive proteins in the bottle, causing nucleation points? Perhaps try something that will drop proteins out, like keiselsol without dropping yeast? This all seems a pretty remote possibility.

You seem convinced you need to replace all your bottling gear because of a brett infection. Brett is mildly hard to get rid off, but really not that hard, what you are doing for cleaning should do the trick. You have disassembled the spigot on your bottling bucket?

 

[homebrewdad]

Well its not bacteria, as there are not off flavors. Its not mutated yeast cause you arent reharvesting. I dont think its wild yeast or brett, cause your beer is clearing in 4 weeks, which if there is enough wild yeast to cause a problem, Id think you couldnt read a newspaper through the bottle. You are convinced you arent over priming. That doesnt leave much.

Do you fine the beers at all? If not, I wonder if cold conditioning in the bottle is dropping out excessive proteins in the bottle, causing nucleation points? Perhaps try something that will drop proteins out, like keiselsol without dropping yeast? This all seems a pretty remote possibility.

You seem convinced you need to replace all your bottling gear because of a brett infection. Brett is mildly hard to get rid off, but really not that hard, what you are doing for cleaning should do the trick. You have disassembled the spigot on your bottling bucket?

I used to use Irish moss for kettle fining. The last three batches have been whirlfloc (which I know is the same thing). No fining agents in the fermentor.

I disassemble the spigot, the autosiphon, the bottling wand every single time. A long time ago, I failed on the spigot, and mildew taught me the error of my ways.

I get very little trub in the bottom of my bottles.

 

[brdb]

Okay, it would not be unreasonable to assume ON ONE BATCH. On multiple batches where I hit my target gravity - or exceed it - and leave the beer for at least four weeks before bottling, it's unreasonable to assume that every one of them was still not done (especially with things like English ale yeasts that work hard and fast, then flocc out like bricks).

Gravity is lower in the bottles once this happens. No kidding, that's what's causing the gushing. I get that. What I don't get is what is causing the fermentation. My best guess is a wild yeast in my bottling gear.

Hitting your target gravity does not really mean anything to be honest. Maybe if you were a professional brewer brewing the same batch over and over then yes of course you are expecting to hit a certain gravity, but with homebrewing I'd be more focused on hitting a gravity that remains stable over the course of a few days (most of us can't control all of the variables that go into determining the FG of a batch, so even on repeat batches the FG can vary). Also, do you ferment at a certain temperature and then possibly bottle condition at a higher temperature?

 

[GCPHomebrew]

How do you know it's infection? Off flavor? Crud floating?


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[homebrewdad]

How do you know it's infection? Off flavor? Crud floating?

Infection being something there I did not introduce. Flavor is not terribly affected (notice more in some batches than others - some have no real change at all), but basically, I went two years with great carbonation. For several consecutive months since, every single batch seems good for a few weeks, then starts gushing. Gravity readings on degassed bottles reveal that gravity is noticeably lower than when bottled.

Hitting your target gravity does not really mean anything to be honest. Maybe if you were a professional brewer brewing the same batch over and over then yes of course you are expecting to hit a certain gravity, but with homebrewing I'd be more focused on hitting a gravity that remains stable over the course of a few days (most of us can't control all of the variables that go into determining the FG of a batch, so even on repeat batches the FG can vary).

I don't mean to be rude, but this is fairly unhelpful advice. Maybe you missed the implication that comes from the fact that I hit my target gravities every time? If you pitch enough healthy yeast, control your temps, oxygenate well, and know what you are doing with recipe formulation... I'd go out on a limb and say that hitting gravity *does* mean something.

I experiment a lot, but I keep a selection of "house" beers - i.e. recipes that I brew regularly. Two of the infected batches were these types of beers, beers that I obtained results that not only lined up with what Beersmith was telling me to expect, but that past experience had me prepared for.

If you are missing final gravities on a regular basis, your process needs some serious help. I'm not certain that you are qualified to offer advice here.

Lots of brewers bottle as soon as gravity is stable; often, two weeks or less. Again, I rarely bottle anything before four weeks in the fermentor - sometimes longer.

Also, do you ferment at a certain temperature and then possibly bottle condition at a higher temperature?

This has what to do with the price of tea in China? But I'll humor you. My process is unchanged for some time.

With few exceptions (namely, Belgians that I may ramp up at the end of fermentation in order to get the last few points of attenuation), I ferment at the bottom end of the recommended temp for the yeast strain in question. Typically, I'll leave the beer at that temp for two weeks or so, at which point I move it to ambient basement temps (mid sixties or so). Two weeks later, I bottle. Bottles are stored in my dining room for 3-4 weeks @ ~70 degrees F to ensure solid carbonation (though the bock was the first beer in some time to not be fully carbed after two weeks... that batch took the full three). At some point after that (often when my wife gets tired of the boxes stacking up), the beer gets moved back to the basement, where it is stored prior to drinking.

I chill bottles in the fridge anywhere from a few hours too a week or so prior to drinking. Once I discover a gushing issue, the fridge time has no real bearing on the gushing.

 

[pdxal]

It's hard to help someone who doesn't want help. People are trying to be nice and help you out. No need to get mad or defensive.
Before I check out of trying to help you I will try one last time.

If you read back over your own posts you will see that you are bottling too early. Gravity drops below what you bottle the beer at, with no signs of infection, with good sanitation, and over carbonation.
Each additional gravity point your beer drops after bottling yields 0.5vol CO2. So if you bottle at 1.017 and the beer further ferments to 1.013 you will have about 2.9vol CO2 without adding any priming sugar (assuming around +/-0.9vol CO2 remaining in the beer at bottling). If you're adding any priming sugar to that that still fermenting beer you'll be way over (potentially in the 4.0-4.5vol range or more. Gravity needs to be stable before bottling.
Here's a reference on gravity and carbonation:
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=2177.0

Good luck, and I hope you are able to solve your problem.

 

[progmac]

You could mix it up a bit and bottle a batch with no priming sugar (force ferment a sample on a stir plate and bottle the main batch when the gravity is 3 points above the fg of your stir plate sample). I have done this twice with so-so results the first time and outstanding results the second time. It took a good 3-4 weeks to carb but it worked. It is kind of a fun change plus it will help you understand what might be going on.

 

[homebrewdad]

It's hard to help someone who doesn't want help. People are trying to be nice and help you out. No need to get mad or defensive.
Before I check out of trying to help you I will try one last time.

If you read back over your own posts you will see that you are bottling too early. Gravity drops below what you bottle the beer at, with no signs of infection, with good sanitation, and over carbonation.
Each additional gravity point your beer drops after bottling yields 0.5vol CO2. So if you bottle at 1.017 and the beer further ferments to 1.013 you will have about 2.9vol CO2 without adding any priming sugar (assuming around +/-0.9vol CO2 remaining in the beer at bottling). If you're adding any priming sugar to that that still fermenting beer you'll be way over (potentially in the 4.0-4.5vol range or more. Gravity needs to be stable before bottling.
Here's a reference on gravity and carbonation:
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=2177.0

Good luck, and I hope you are able to solve your problem.

"Each additional gravity point your beer drops after bottling yields 0.5vol CO2."

Huh. I have a Belgian blonde with ~8 volumes of CO2. Wonder why I haven't had any bombs? Got a citation for this claim? I think you may be overstating the gravity to CO2 ratio just a bit. But I digress...

I am *not* bottling too early. Final gravity is reached and is stable. I used to take multiple gravity readings before bottling, I've long since learned that waiting long enough negates the need for a potential contamination on this.

Exactly one of these batches was handled differently - an IPA that I wanted to get bottles as quickly as possible due to aroma. It sat two weeks in the fermentor. Gravity on 7/14 was 1.015. Gravity on 7/16 was 1.015. I bottled. Same as the other batches, it was great for several weeks. A couple of days ago, I found my first gusher.

NO residue. NO pellicle in the bottle. NO off flavors. Just gushing.

Dude, just because I don't take multiple measurements doesn't mean gravity is not stable. Fermentation is usually done in a matter of days. After a month? C'mon. You're making massive assumptions (infection requires one of the following symptoms, gravity isn't stable unless you witness it, etc).

I can safely assume that at most latitudes on the planet, the sun will be out at noon, local time. I don't have to witness that for it to be true. Same thing here. Gravity is stable. Please stop insulting my intelligence by claiming otherwise. Please stop spreading fallacies like "infections must have one of the following symptoms".

I'm not suggesting bacterial infection, which WOULD line up with what you are saying. I'm suggesting some variety of wild yeast is the culprit, which could easily not yield bad flavors in the very small amount of fermentation that is going on.

You could mix it up a bit and bottle a batch with no priming sugar (force ferment a sample on a stir plate and bottle the main batch when the gravity is 3 points above the fg of your stir plate sample). I have done this twice with so-so results the first time and outstanding results the second time. It took a good 3-4 weeks to carb but it worked. It is kind of a fun change plus it will help you understand what might be going on.

That's a cool idea.

 

[balrog]

I must look into this "force ferment" thing...

 

[mdbrewer1]

Sounds like you've already reached a conclusion on what your issue is (wild yeast) and have since started crapping on anyone that suggests anything different. Seems to me your next step is to figure out a path forward on addressing your apparent wild yeast problem and report back with results.

 

[kaconga]

Sucks about your infection. I know it is common practice to preach the multiple gravity readings over 3 days rule but when you have multiple batches gushing then it pretty much has to be an infection. No way someone could be that consistently bad at brewing after having so many successful batches.

One thing I have taken to doing to prevent infections is to replace my spigot every six months on my bottling bucket. It seems like the Achilles heel of my system. Other than me of course

 

[rmyurick]

You do boil the priming sugar, right?

May be your bottling bucket or tubing, as you seem to have figured out. I'd be suspicious of a spigot. Seems like a hard thing to sanitize. I just siphon out of a (spigotless) bottling bucket.

 

[brdb]

I don't mean to be rude, but this is fairly unhelpful advice. Maybe you missed the implication that comes from the fact that I hit my target gravities every time? If you pitch enough healthy yeast, control your temps, oxygenate well, and know what you are doing with recipe formulation... I'd go out on a limb and say that hitting gravity *does* mean something.

I experiment a lot, but I keep a selection of "house" beers - i.e. recipes that I brew regularly. Two of the infected batches were these types of beers, beers that I obtained results that not only lined up with what Beersmith was telling me to expect, but that past experience had me prepared for.

If you are missing final gravities on a regular basis, your process needs some serious help. I'm not certain that you are qualified to offer advice here.

Lots of brewers bottle as soon as gravity is stable; often, two weeks or less. Again, I rarely bottle anything before four weeks in the fermentor - sometimes longer.

Obviously we should all have an idea of what our final gravity will be around after taking into account certain variables such as mash temperature, fermentation temperature, yeast health, etc, but what I am trying to tell you is that a target gravity and a stable gravity are not the same thing (if you want me to divulge, please ask). Therefore, if you are taking one gravity measurement and then coming on here and telling us you have a wild yeast infection and need to replace all of your bottling equipment, I am going to be realistic and tell you the next, most obvious precautionary step is making sure your FG is stable (which you can't tell me it's stable when you've taken one gravity measurement). I don't care if your process is bulletproof. Guess what, professional brewers even miss their gravities from time to time. Just because you've been brewing for however long does not mean you should be of the mindset that you are above bottling before fermentation is over. Also, just because it has happened on a few batches does not mean that all of those batches could not have possibly needed more time to finish fermentation. Does it make it less likely since it has happened on a few batches? Probably, but I would not rule it out.

This has what to do with the price of tea in China? But I'll humor you. My process is unchanged for some time.

With few exceptions (namely, Belgians that I may ramp up at the end of fermentation in order to get the last few points of attenuation), I ferment at the bottom end of the recommended temp for the yeast strain in question. Typically, I'll leave the beer at that temp for two weeks or so, at which point I move it to ambient basement temps (mid sixties or so). Two weeks later, I bottle. Bottles are stored in my dining room for 3-4 weeks @ ~70 degrees F to ensure solid carbonation (though the bock was the first beer in some time to not be fully carbed after two weeks... that batch took the full three). At some point after that (often when my wife gets tired of the boxes stacking up), the beer gets moved back to the basement, where it is stored prior to drinking.

Well I don't think it has anything to do with the price of tea in China, but it does bring up a possible issue. Higher temperatures typically mean more active yeast (I'm assuming this is why you move your beers to the basement after two weeks), lower temperatures mean yeast that is not as active. Therefore, contrary to your belief, it is possible that if your yeast conked out at the FG measured in the fermenter which was kept at a temperature on the lower end of the yeast's tolerance (or in the basement, at a temperature lower than bottle conditioning), but then transferred to bottles kept at a warmer temperature, the yeast could become active again and not only be converting the priming sugar, but also some residual sugars.

 

[homebrewdad]

Sounds like you've already reached a conclusion on what your issue is (wild yeast) and have since started crapping on anyone that suggests anything different. Seems to me your next step is to figure out a path forward on addressing your apparent wild yeast problem and report back with results.

I've reached a conclusion on the best evidence that I have. Despite what brdb keeps preaching, this is not a lack of stable FG or a temperature issue.

I have had people suggest some good ideas beyond what has been mentioned in the thread - keeping the bottling bucket covered, consider capping immediately, checking the pH of my starsan on the off chance that my fairly alkaline water is dropping its effectiveness. It's been suggested that I should raise the ferm temp on all batches at the end to ensure every bit of attenuation (of course, my Belgian blonde was raised to 80 degrees for four days, and still ended up with identical symptoms).

brdb's heart is surely in the right place, but I'm afraid that his/her advice is not solidly founded in facts. When somebody is telling me that FG doesn't matter, but is acting like a magical extra dip of a hydrometer will change things... well, yeah.

I will indeed report back.

 

[smizak]

Don't crap on me here, I'm just curious.....

Can you give me your last gushing beers final bottled total, weight of priming fermentable and type, method of measuring the priming fermentable, and desired volume of CO2?

 

[homebrewdad]

Don't crap on me here, I'm just curious.....

Can you give me your last gushing beers final bottled total, weight of priming fermentable and type, method of measuring the priming fermentable, and desired volume of CO2?

Absolutely. I'm happy to discuss, and I'm open to even off the wall suggestions.

Last bottled brew was the bock.

Fermentation schedule:

Fermented @ 50 degrees F for 5.5 days. SG was 1.026. Warmed to 65 F for diacetyl rest. Five days later, began lagering @ 33 F.

Lagered @ 33 F for a little over eight weeks. At that point, moved the carboy to basement temps (~64 F) for four weeks. Brought the beer upstairs to bottle, allowed it to sit at rooms temps for several days.

Bottled with 124 grams of table sugar boiled in two cups of water (sugar measured by weight on digital scale, water used plain old glass kitchen measuring cup). Solution added to bottling bucket directly from the stove, beer racked on top. Given several stirs with a sanitized stainless steel spoon. Total volume in bucket was ~5 gallons (I have the bucket marked in half gallon increments). Given that the beer achieved 70 degrees F prior to bottling, I should have had ~2.6 volumes of CO2.

Bottled 48 12 oz bottles, enjoyed a little flat beer, discarded the remainder.

 

[brdb]

I've reached a conclusion on the best evidence that I have. Despite what brdb keeps preaching, this is not a lack of stable FG or a temperature issue.

It's been suggested that I should raise the ferm temp on all batches at the end to ensure every bit of attenuation (of course, my Belgian blonde was raised to 80 degrees for four days, and still ended up with identical symptoms).

brdb's heart is surely in the right place, but I'm afraid that his/her advice is not solidly founded in facts. When somebody is telling me that FG doesn't matter, but is acting like a magical extra dip of a hydrometer will change things... well, yeah.

I will indeed report back.

1. You say it is not an issue of stable FG
-You have admitted to only taking one gravity reading, therefore, all you can assume is that you hit your target gravity, you can't say with any certainty that the gravity was indeed stable.
2. You say it is not a temperature issue
-You said you ferment at a lower temperature than you bottle at, therefore leaving open the possibility that temperature could be playing a role.

I never said FG does not matter. I said hitting your target gravity does not really mean anything, because a target gravity and a stable gravity are two different things. That "magical" extra dip could change things, of course, because what if that "magical" dip went from 1.017 yesterday to 1.015 today? I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but come on man, if you are too stubborn to take an extra 1 or 2 hydrometer readings, then by all means replace your bottling equipment, but I would hope you'd take a more reasonable step before doing so.

 

[homebrewdad]

1. You say it is not an issue of stable FG
-You have admitted to only taking one gravity reading, therefore, all you can assume is that you hit your target gravity, you can't say with any certainty that the gravity was indeed stable.
2. You say it is not a temperature issue
-You said you ferment at a lower temperature than you bottle at, therefore leaving open the possibility that temperature could be playing a role.

I never said FG does not matter. I said hitting your target gravity does not really mean anything, because a target gravity and a stable gravity are two different things. That "magical" extra dip could change things, of course, because what if that "magical" dip went from 1.017 yesterday to 1.015 today? I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but come on man, if you are too stubborn to take an extra 1 or 2 hydrometer readings, then by all means replace your bottling equipment, but I would hope you'd take a more reasonable step before doing so.

I also mentioned that, on the IPA, I took the extra gravity reading to be sure, as I was pushing it on to bottles to avoid losing hop aroma. Exact same symptoms.

You are *really* grasping at straws to push your theory. You don't believe that an infection can happen without off flavors of visible changes. You think that every batch I have at four plus weeks has coincidentally not reached FG. You're not dealing in the real world, friend.

 

[mdbrewer1]

I also mentioned that, on the IPA, I took the extra gravity reading to be sure, as I was pushing it on to bottles to avoid losing hop aroma. Exact same symptoms.

You are *really* grasping at straws to push your theory. You don't believe that an infection can happen without off flavors of visible changes. You think that every batch I have at four plus weeks has coincidentally not reached FG. You're not dealing in the real world, friend.

I don't know why you are continuing to be snarky. I can't imagine he is "pushing his theory" for anything other than helpful reasons.

As a scientist, I don't think his theory is all that unreasonable, even though it is highly unlikely. If it were my beer, I'd do the simple and free option of taking an extra gravity reading or two on my next couple beers prior to going through the trouble and cost of replacing all of your plastic components.

His suggestion is one quick and easy way of eliminating a variable.

 

[brdb]

I also mentioned that, on the IPA, I took the extra gravity reading to be sure, as I was pushing it on to bottles to avoid losing hop aroma. Exact same symptoms.

You are *really* grasping at straws to push your theory. You don't believe that an infection can happen without off flavors of visible changes. You think that every batch I have at four plus weeks has coincidentally not reached FG. You're not dealing in the real world, friend.

I don't believe I ever said an infection can only happen when there are off flavors or visible changes. However, it is very rare that an infection occurs with no noticeable effects other than converting more of the sugars to CO2 (let's be real here since this is the real world). Again, if you left said batch in fermenter for 4 weeks at the same temperature as you leave bottles at, I would probably agree with you and say yes it is very likely you have an infection. However, I must go off what you've told me, every batch has been fermented at a lower temperature than it has been bottled at (with the exception of one batch) which leaves open the possibility that the yeast are getting roused once more due to the increased temperature, and lowering your FG even further. Time is only one variable, does it matter, yes, but is it the be all end all, no.

 

[homebrewdad]

I don't know why you are continuing to be snarky. I can't imagine he is "pushing his theory" for anything other than helpful reasons.

As a scientist, I don't think his theory is all that unreasonable, even though it is highly unlikely. If it were my beer, I'd do the simple and free option of taking an extra gravity reading or two on my next couple beers prior to going through the trouble and cost of replacing all of your plastic components.

His suggestion is one quick and easy way of eliminating a variable.

Thanks for your input.

I don't believe I ever said an infection can only happen when there are off flavors or visible changes. However, it is very rare that an infection occurs with no noticeable effects other than converting more of the sugars to CO2 (let's be real here since this is the real world). Again, if you left said batch in fermenter for 4 weeks at the same temperature as you leave bottles at, I would probably agree with you and say yes it is very likely you have an infection. However, I must go off what you've told me, every batch has been fermented at a lower temperature than it has been bottled at (with the exception of one batch) which leaves open the possibility that the yeast are getting roused once more due to the increased temperature, and lowering your FG even further. Time is only one variable, does it matter, yes, but is it the be all end all, no.

Thanks for your input.

 

[smizak]

I don't know. 48 bottles is only 4.5 gallons, assuming the discarded remainder wasn't a whole half gallon. It might not account for gushing, but you might be over-carbing a little.

 

[homebrewdad]

I don't know. 48 bottles is only 4.5 gallons, assuming the discarded remainder wasn't a whole half gallon. It might not account for gushing, but you might be over-carbing a little.

I won't discount that, but even if I only had 4.5 gallons instead of 5 (I did not, I measured), I would have been 10% over. Instead of 2.6 volumes, I'd have been at 2.9 volumes (rounded up). Fizzy, but by no means gushing.