Bottle conditioning British pale ales and bitters

[TreborDeSinagro]

I'd like to get your opinions on whether or not to prime British pale ales and bitters prior to bottle conditioning. I've been using ~60 g DME to prime ~20 litres. I'm finding this works for more hop forward APAs and (with perhaps another 20 g or so DME) IPAs but not for my bitters.

With priming I'm finding my bitters are coming out over carbonated for the style, giving the wrong mouthfeel. I know we're not comparing apples with apples, but I find the very low carbonation you'd get with a cask more appropriate for this style.

Can a cask conditioned mouthfeel be emulated in a bottle? Perhaps by not including any priming sugar at all? Would you need to bottle early at a few gravity points above your target FG? Or is this risky!

If anyone has any experience with this I'd appreciate any suggestions or thoughts!

Cheers!

 

[fourfarthing]

You definitely want less priming sugars. Find a carb calculator that works with your process and has a tables showing preferred carb levels by style and you can start tweaking.

I may be a traditionalist, but I prefer to bottle condition my British beers.

 

[user 246304]

Great thread. I'm in the same boat. Though I know Black Sheep uses no priming sugar or extra yeast "there's enough left there [after conditioning]..." for their cask ales, I don't know if the same holds up for their bottles.

Terry Foster goes into some recommendations in his book Pale Ale. . If Bitters and (a bit more) Pale Ales get 1-1.0 volumes CO2 for cask service, maybe a touch more, 1.5-1.7 for bottle service. This is from pp. 219-220. If your beer has reached terminal gravity, at 60-70F, you're likely to have 0.4-0.5 vCO2. You then added in enough priming to bring your beer up to 1.5-1.7, or whatever you want (Obviously if you haven't reached terminal gravity and you add in priming on the presumption you have, then you'll have a much high vCO2).

He mentions a rule of thumb among British brewers that FG is about 1/4 OG but that that is a pretty broad rule of thumb because so much depends on your mashing regime, yeast selection, etc. He suggests just going by whether your beer has stayed at the same gravity for several days, and if so, call it FG.

To get 1.5-1.6 vCO2 in your final bottled ale, presuming a retained .4-.5 vCO2 from a beer having reached FG, and 5 gallons, use 3.5 oz. cane sugar or 4.4 oz. corn sugar to get your final 1.5-1.6 Vol. CO2 in your finished bottles.

Just one source.

 

[Rob_85]

fourfarthing, the 60 g is based on an average of advice given from various calculators. For example using the one here www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/ that gives me 1.37 vols CO2 in 20 litres at 20C... Which is below their suggested range for a bitter, but within the range (1-1.5) suggested in 'Brewing Classic Styles'.

The calculator suggests that at 20C there is a residual 0.86 volumes of C02 in the beer.... or 1 vol CO2 at 15C. Based on this, could the residual CO2 in beer stored at 15C be sufficient for a British bitter? Has anyone tried this?

Gadjobrinus, I've ordered a copy of Fosters book, might be useful & interesting.

 

[fourfarthing]

I think my comment was mainly that if the carb level worked for an APA you would definitely want less for a classic bitter.

 

[user 246304]

fourfarthing, the 60 g is based on an average of advice given from various calculators. For example using the one here www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/ that gives me 1.37 vols CO2 in 20 litres at 20C... Which is below their suggested range for a bitter, but within the range (1-1.5) suggested in 'Brewing Classic Styles'.

The calculator suggests that at 20C there is a residual 0.86 volumes of C02 in the beer.... or 1 vol CO2 at 15C. Based on this, could the residual CO2 in beer stored at 15C be sufficient for a British bitter? Has anyone tried this?

Gadjobrinus, I've ordered a copy of Fosters book, might be useful & interesting.

Hope you like it, I do. Terry's definitely opinionated but that's OK, I think he earned it. I find myself getting burned out on reading brewing science (I read alot of Briggs, because I like a more British-balance to my reads), and Terry I find always enjoyable. He contributed a lot and I wished I'd shared a pint with him.

Whoops, sorry, missed your last bit. I think that's what Black Sheep does, basically. It's just spunding, capping when you have a calculated amount entrapped and/or to go in final fermentation. I really want to do this, but I think it's very hard to do. I'd suspect you really have to know a given ale and how it performs, after countless fermentations. But I'm definitely down with truly naturally carbonating, with nothing whatsoever added. To master that, with the perfect amount of yeast sedimenting out in the conditioned bottle - that would be paradise. Is this what you're talking about? If so, good luck and I'd love to hear how it goes.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I also prefer naturally carbed British styles. Cask I carb to 1.2 volumes (ie pretty minimal) and bottles I carb to 1.8.

Racking early/spunding works fine for cask/keg where a PRV/bleed valve/spile can let off the excess. I'd be careful with bottles unless you're certain what you're doing and know exactly where something will finish. Possible bottle bombs, or at least just overcarbing.

I would advise against simply bottling/casking uncarbonated, unprimed, fully fermented beer unless doing so in a closed loop under CO2 pressure (unless you're a CAMRA puritan, but I don't know if gas transfers count against their dogma). Too much oxidation potential and nothing to clean it up. Priming or racking early allows the yeast to scavenge whatever O2 is introduced.

 

[user 246304]

I also prefer naturally carbed British styles. Cask I carb to 1.2 volumes (ie pretty minimal) and bottles I carb to 1.8.

Racking early/spunding works fine for cask/keg where a PRV/bleed valve/spile can let off the excess. I'd be careful with bottles unless you're certain what you're doing and know exactly where something will finish. Possible bottle bombs, or at least just overcarbing.

I would advise against simply bottling/casking uncarbonated, unprimed, fully fermented beer unless doing so in a closed loop under CO2 pressure (unless you're a CAMRA puritan, but I don't know if gas transfers count against their dogma). Too much oxidation potential and nothing to clean it up. Priming or racking early allows the yeast to scavenge whatever O2 is introduced.

I want to chew the issues here, because this post nails it, I think. It also happens to hit the heart of concerns I have for my own intended regimen, adapting from Black Sheep's, actually, but including a dry hop slurry period midstream. Transferring under CO2 is probably key to this intention, but I'm trying to be a CAMRA purist (a traditionalist; I constitutionally cannot be otherwise and gave up long ago). I also am unclear - perhaps you can clear it up, Qrhumphf? Breathers? Considered a necessary need now, or still considered "unnatural" introduction of CO2, and just an excuse for bad cellarmanship?

FWIW, from a paper I wrote while (very, very briefly) studying through Heriot-Watt's Malting and Brewing Diploma program. Just restates what Qhrumphf says, but gives a couple of possible numbers:

Spunding. When the fermenting beer has reached a pre-determined level of attenuation, and a given amount of residual sugar and viable, suspended yeast is determined to remain, the fermentation vessel (FV) is “capped.” As the fermentation progresses to its final stages, the CO2 which evolves is unable to escape the FV, and condition is thus achieved. Typically, the FV is capped with 1 – 1.5% residual extract, and 1-4 million viable yeast cells/ml in suspension.

Black Sheep sends their ale over to the conditioning vessel, after a slow cooldown and rest at 10C, with 2-3 mil. cells/ml. Rests here for 1-2 days, and they go to cask with 1/2-3/4 mil./ml.

What's not clear is if the yeast is capped in the c.v., so it already has some spunding taking place when it's sent over to casks. Black Sheep does not prime. "Plenty of yeast, plenty of residual sugar."

Nailing this down, with a warm-period dry hop intermediate between the open fermentor and a cooling vessel (itself intermediate, just prior to c.v.), is on my mind.

Edit: OK, I hope I'm not hijacking the thread, but in the hope it contributes, here goes:

Open fermentor: Pitch at 500,000 /ml*P, 60F. Crop at 64F. Free rise to 68F. Ferment x 3 days.

Transfer to airlock fermentor and allow to ferment to .5-1 P above FG. Add in dry hop slurry x 3 days.

Rack (under CO2?) to 3rd vessel, airlock; cool slowly over at least 3 days to 50F (begin spunding?). Maintain 1-2 days. Cask, without priming.

Bottle is at a higher carbonation, and totally agree with Qhrumphf, guessing as to how much CO2 is in a bottle is probably not the best idea. So knowing what's coming out of the above regimen, and then, sigh, priming for bottling, is necessary.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

If I read the thread correctly, one would - in general - desire a "low" carbonation for British Pale Ales and more of a "medium" or average carbonation for American Pale Ales?

Please advise, and thank you -

Ron

 

[user 246304]

If I read the thread correctly, one would - in general - desire a "low" carbonation for British Pale Ales and more of a "medium" or average carbonation for American Pale Ales?

Please advise, and thank you -

Ron

I guess it all depends on one's palate, but by my book British ales (excepting some pale ales) are fairly low, and American medium-high. Terry Foster calls it:

Cask conditioned English Bitters: 1.0-1.5 vCO2
English Pale Ales (bottled): 1.5-2.5 vCO2
English IPAs: 1.0-2.0 vCO2 (cask or bottle)
American Pale Ale: 2.0-2.5 vCO2
American India Pale Ale: 2.0-2.5 vCO2

I wouldn't be surprised to find many American ales at a higher level (and perhaps many English bottled ales for the export market at a higher level as well?). I'm accustomed to about 1.2 in cask, and 1.75 or so in bottle. That's what I've shot for, anyway, in English ales.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Many thanks - that gives a good indication of the relative goals to shoot for.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I can't be bothered with dogma. CAMRA, Reinheitsgebot, you name it. I do what is needed for the best beer. I do small batch polypin cask at home (casks are about 1 gal and gone in a night when tapped) so oxidation hasn't been a concern unless taken to the exteme, but I have zero objection to cask breathers or gas transfers.

 

[user 246304]

I hear you. I should be able to discard things like this kind of dogma, and I usually do, but not until I become the best slave to the dogma I can be. Weird, I know.

We stayed in Hook Norton as patrons of the Pear Tree Inn. The publican couldn't stand the religion it had all become, CAMRA, and he ran a top notch tied house (to the brewery about 400 steps away. One of the best times of my life).

Edit: I should think of polypins and split the rest into bottle conditioned beers. I always did firkins at home, and it sucked.

 

[Qhrumphf]

That's the idea. 3 one gallon polypins, bottle up the other two gallons. Done. Did that many, many times.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Oh boy, where to begin. Having USians talking about carbonation of British beers is a bit like Brits going to Alabama for a nice rational chat about abortion and gun control; there remains a sneaking suspicion that our Civil War was not about the primacy of Parliament versus the monarchy but whether beer should be served through sparklers...

You can guess from my name where I stand on that particular debate/jihad/blood-feud. As a result I tend to bung in about 80g of table sugar for my brown beers, maybe a bit less for my golden beers - that's not in any way optimised (I don't normally even have any torrefied wheat for head retention), but the forecast 1.8-1.9 vol feels about right. The thing is that although cask is relatively low-carbonated in the cask, you then have the effect of being drawn through the lines in turbulent flow, through the hand-pull and (optionally) a sparkler, so just saying "1-1.5vol for cask" doesn't quite translate into what you'll actually get in a glass of cask. Certainly the nature of the carbonation in a pint of cask is different to bottle is different to keg/can - and the most appropriate one will vary for different beers even within a category.

Yes, CAMRA still regard cask breathers as the devil's work, although there are signs that some of the more thoughtful CAMRA-ites are slowly coming round on that point.

There's quite a lot of UK brewers will rack and add dedicated conditioning yeast, particularly if they're using less flocculant Burton-style yeast for fermentation - Marstons being a classic example.

 

[user 246304]

First, can I just say, I shared a pint with my wife in the back room of the Reindeer Inn, with baleful portraits of Charles I and Cromwell glaring at each other on either side of the table, on the wall. Made us feel we should drink without expressing any joy, whichever direction we looked.

Secondly, life is not solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. Unless you refuse to share a pint.

Third, I have 8-9% torrefied wheat in many of my bitters, but I'm about evenly divided between wanting one drawn through a sparkler, or without. I am wanting to really dive into Yorkshire ales, with some Yorkshire materials and Yorkshire yeasts, but an almost headless pint with the suggestive, carbonic tinge and hops swimming inside....quite lost as to a "way." I do mean it.

Fourth, another invaluable post and one I want to read and do it again, and let what lies behind the words soak in. Thanks, Northern, for bringing these forward.

Edit: I am wont to believe your theory, btw, it was the sparklers. I forget what year it took place, and which Oxford pub, but as you descend, my memory describes, a placard commemorates that from that very pub, students wreaked havoc upon the town, over some issue involving ale.

 

[user 246304]

That's the idea. 3 one gallon polypins, bottle up the other two gallons. Done. Did that many, many times.

Thanks very much for the idea, Qhrumphf. Astoundingly simple solution that nevertheless eluded me. Firkin for a few people. Breather or not. Uh, yep.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Unfortunately left the UK before direct local real ale experience could be a thing so my frame of reference is my own experience, the few bars locally to take cask seriously, and CAMRA manuals. Ribena though...you could probably imagine my excitement when I found it locally. The wife doesn't understand. Guzzled by the gallon as a small child.

Although a trip home for the first time in ~25 years is in the cards.

 

[stz]

What is the question again? Ok. We chill as cold as the system allows =<2 points off of FG to drop the yeast and dry hop and slow/halt fermentation. Next day we transfer to conditioning tank which is held at 4C. Next day we rack into cask. 2 points is more than enough to condition a cask beer, this is the safe upper limit. Especially as you chill it down at the end of the fermentation rather than long after fermentation is complete so a decent amount of co2 is held in solution. Primary concern is getting it wrong and having exploding casks, though these are not as bad as exploding bottles. Secondary concern is yeast count and viability because there needs to be the right amount to get the job done, but not too much within the time frame anticipated prior to serving.

The longer the beer sits at low temperature (dependent on strain) the less you get in cask. We'd love them to get two weeks. We'd love cellar men to stillage beer correctly with good judgement, quite often they suffer a tap being banged in and are served after 4 days, so relatively high yeast counts compared to bottles are quite normal. In effect the cask is your secondary fermenter and conditioning tank, your beer drops bright at this stage. This is responsible for some of the "wtf my english ale yeast dropped out on me near the end!" moments and why given time they are usually quite good at flocculation.

Bottling at this point is not a good idea. The remaining points to ferment out can be all over the place. The yeast count is often way too high. The beer if fined because it mixes well on transfer to conditioning tank and as this effects the clumping characteristics of the yeast, yeast which previously forms a tight sediment forms powdery clumps leading to nucleation you get soup or a potential gusher on opening.

Beer destined to bottle (and bottle condition) is fermented out dry and primed. We actually fill casks (unprimed and unfined) before fining and racking the rest of the take off. These casks we store for two weeks to ferment out in their final position before hooking up the bottling engine and priming the beer. Typical rate is 150g in 9g (uk, 10.81 us). Assuming 50% ends up as co2 we are introducing 75g co2. IMO this is on the high side. Bigger breweries will have better systems and tech for larger volumes.

Table sugar is 375 ld/kg. Our addition of 150g in 41L is thus 1.37 points. If I was comfortable controlling provisional gravity to that extent I would most likely bottle off of the conditioning tank without priming, though I would do a test batch in plastic first. Thing is, 1.37 is a little low and we could do with a little less in bottle anyway. Then there is the yeast count.

Macro breweries LOVE filtering, bulk carbonating and bottling bright carbonated beer. Very few breweries except micro produce bottle conditioned beer. The rare exceptions are quite likely to have been fermented dry, filtered primed and bottled with a bottling strain.

I absolutely loath bottling, but can appreciate it for what it is. There is a misconception here that 'craft' cans are fresher and always contain superior beer, but it isn't because of the can itself, it is because to can your process has to be hot stuff and if your process is excellent then usually the beer speaks for itself.

 

[user 246304]

Thanks for a great layout of procedure, stz. My personal "Sticky" of collected British wisdom spoken here. Seems that bottling without fermenting out and priming is nigh impossible. This is probably chasing it for no purpose, but can you do a forced ferment and a yeast count to know what parameters you would have going into the bottle, in order to avoid priming?

 

[user 246304]

Stz, I'm digesting this protocol myself, as I'm able to cask and bottle condition, and at this point I just have two questions:

We chill as cold as the system allows =<2 points off of FG to drop the yeast and dry hop and slow/halt fermentation.

Firstly, do you crash chill, or bring it down slowly (and is it to 4C as in the conditioning tank)?

Secondly, most I know dry hop warm, then chill to drop out both yeast and dry hop material. But then, I only know people who use pellets in some form (e.g., slurry - almost all I know use a slurry). They ferment warm, crash cool, to get a strong drop out.

Do you feel you get a good aroma/dry hop character pickup at the cooler temp? I ask, because I thought to try Black Sheep's regimen of a slow cool down to 10C, and would like to dry hop during this pre-conditioning tank stage. Have just never dry hopped other than warm.

Thanks.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Seems that bottling without fermenting out and priming is nigh impossible.

My recipe for Edelweiss Hefeweizen calls for bottling at BrewDay+3, with no additional priming sugar. I've done it 3 times and it has been successful every time, with a very soft, gentle carbonation.

Having said that, I don't know if I would attempt it with any other recipe, since this one was written exactly for that result.

 

[stz]

Yes. Experience and enough prior data makes it unnecessary perhaps, but we force ferment all beer as routine anyway. It is important for showing due diligence for abv and associated duty/tax as well as certain other quality standard accreditation. For existing product this is usually a sample taken right around the point when you are on the fence about setting the fermenter to cool, big blob of fresh yeast, squirt of anti foam and onto the stir plate.

For new product this is a little earlier, during the last half of the fermentation to give us a little more time to intervene if needed in case it does something unexpected. Yeast counts can be and are done and it is possible that higher up in the column in a tall conical that it is about low enough, but unlikely from experience. Ideal amount for bottle conditioning is just enough to leave a light dusting on the bottom of the bottle, inevitably you get a fairly substantial layer. Big problem for consistency/homogeneity. Especially around sample ports/racking ports you can get a build up of yeast and beer which was flowing bright for the last few minutes can suddenly turn thick with a few blobs of yeast which have detached from somewhere.

The main problem with trying to avoid priming is that 1.32 points is on the high side for bottling and average to low for cask. It is the best of neither. I'd prefer lower if we were to bottle off of the conditioning tank, but then we'd be into the realm of low for cask. Also you've got to stop fermentation with a high degree of accuracy. Somebody has to do this manually. We can just about do within 2 points. Trying to do within half a point would be difficult, and still very inaccurate for consistent bottle priming.

Like what if the point you needed to set the chiller is 3am? Or on a Sunday? While we check the beer daily, only a flying visit on the weekend is realistic and certainly the time is to suit the brewer. What if they have a family emergency and decide to come in really early and set chilling to make the best of a difficult situation? We use a single large chiller with a pumped glycol circuit for all chilling. The single biggest load is when chilling tanks and the effectiveness (thus time to chill) of this system is dependent on what else is calling for demand. Got lager in 3 tanks at 1C? Trying to chill 4 2,600L conical at once?

 

[stz]

Our system takes at least 8 hours to bring a vessel down to 4C from 18-23C. We go straight to 4C unless there are extenuating circumstances such as trying to slow a fermentation, extend a fermentation/keep product in a tank because something is delaying the normal pipeline or complex dry hopping/secondary additions where we might want to halt fermentation, but add something which extracts better warm to primary.

We exclusively dry hop with pellets. Arguments in favour of leaf yes, but too many potential issues (blockages and keeping them saturated mainly, plus sheer volume of material to safely move). Pellets can be purged of o2, made into a slurry, pumped into large tanks etc. Leaf material blocks ports, pipes, filters and pumps.

No we prefer the aroma and character dry hopping warm (16C or above) and add dry hop just prior to setting chilling when we can. Especially seeing as compared to many home brewers we dry hop for relatively short durations, 1-3 days. We still dry hop cold if we have to and we will do so if we have to extend the dry hopping time for some reason to hopefully mitigate breakdown/grassy notes.

Biggest problem dry hopping warm is causing the beer to come over due to co2 release. At fermentation temperature it cannot hold the co2. You dump in your pellets from above and the vessel foams over and makes a huge mess. You can't bomb 200L of chunky slurry into the top. You can however sprinkle them dry gently onto the krausen bit by bit and come back later and fold them in with a sanitised shovel. This is our preferred method and we don't stress o2 because the vessels are still flooded with co2 unless we are trying to nail minimal o2 (usually beer destined for canning, then we make up slurry in a purged vessel, pump it in after bringing the temperature down to 16C to help the beer hold its co2 and do all sorts of likely superstitious things to keep it under 200ppb).

When I started with the brewery we used to set chilling before heading home, dry hop the following morning at 4C and transfer off the dry hop the very next day. We hated this method because the dry hop got less than 24 hours in cold beer. It worked, but not as well.

There are extremes hey? At one end, cold beer, dry pellets, short duration. This is the worst case and I've had high alpha pellets fail to break down in the beer doing this. At the other you've got warm beer, a hydrated slurry and long duration. Somewhere in the middle, tweaking variables which don't negatively impact your process on your equipment is the best method for you. Personally when home brewing I dry hop at the end of fermentation in primary with dry pellets at fermentation temperature. On the second day I rock the vessel to make sure they are all mixed into the beer and set chilling. On the third I package.

A good compromise is to chill to 14C-16C and then add your dry hop. At the end of day 2 chill as normal. You get a 3 day dry hop and fermentation should slow/stop at those temperatures at that point in the fermentation.

 

[stz]

Also wanted to say as if I've not vomited enough words that while I believe more can be extracted from a dry hop after 3 days it isn't much and not all of it is very nice, especially if you dry hop warm. I've done A - B test batches with 1, 2, 3 and 5 days on dry hop and while there is a difference, it is not a massive one and I preferred the 3 day beer.

1 day was actually the most aggressive, raw and potent hop flavour. 3 day was less raw, more interesting and balanced.

 

[user 246304]

Also wanted to say as if I've not vomited enough words that while I believe more can be extracted from a dry hop after 3 days it isn't much and not all of it is very nice, especially if you dry hop warm. I've done A - B test batches with 1, 2, 3 and 5 days on dry hop and while there is a difference, it is not a massive one and I preferred the 3 day beer.

1 day was actually the most aggressive, raw and potent hop flavour. 3 day was less raw, more interesting and balanced.

3 is what I use, too, and that's at 20C. Not interested in the wonderful nature of stewed celery. I then crash cool for a day, rack, and force carbonate. Force carbonate kegs, counterpressure bottle fill. This is how I've handled it for a long time, but all this is on a homebrew level and I realize it's all largely irrelevant compared to your requirements. Thanks for being so thorough about what you do and the conditions under which you must work.

I just know I no longer want to do anything but natural carbonation, while incorporating some things (like a hop slurry) I find give me something pleasing. Great thread, OP, thank you. And British brewers, I personally am also really grateful.

 

[Qhrumphf]

3-4 days for me, less doesn't seem enough, more too much.

Slurry dry hopping is a wonderful thing, especially in a spunded tank. Keep those aromatics in. Not really an easy way to do it at home though.

 

[user 246304]

Slurry proved a good technique for me on the homebrew level, actually. But then I racked under CO2. I primary fermented in a sanke, then racked into a 10 gallon corny with the dip tube cut off an inch or so from the bottom. Purge with CO2 and move with CO2 into the corny on top of the slurry, placed earlier. 3 days and crash cool for a day, rack again under CO2 into a final keg. Condition for periods I don't recall now. I generally did not like to agitate to get CO2 into the beer, just set the regulator and walk away to equilibrium and do what I would with it, draft or counterpressure bottle with a Melvico (I wish they still made those).

Worked well, but I'd love to have had a dO2 meter. Thankfully a lot of hop loving in laws and ourselves, beer moved relatively quickly so oxidation was never much of an issue. It would have been nice to see, actually, how they held up over time.

Now, though - arranging slurry and natural conditioning (I am pulling back on the beers I dry hop, actually. I'm moving to balance, and less hop-bombing generally). We'll see!

 

[Qhrumphf]

With how easy corny dip tubes are to clog that seems problematic. But I suppose if you're letting the hop matter settle and a shortened dip tube it'd never actually push the hop slurry out so it seems that'd work.

 

[user 246304]

Yep, it worked perfectly well for me. I crash cooled so I don't know if that's part of it - the violence of the crash shocking yeast out of solution, drop like rocks and with them, perhaps, the slurry. A day of rest after, gentle counterpressure transfer - very clear final racking, every time. I didn't want or feel the need to experiment because I was so happy with the results. Only downside of course, was beer loss. Small price to pay.