Boil kettle condenser - no overhead ventilation needed

[McMullan]

@McMullan
The down tilt is for the natural condensation that occurs in the tubing before the spray point.
Condensation occurs on the lid and pipework and insulation with the tilt means more steam reaches spray and any ambient condensation runs out.

I see what you mean now I'll put a slight tilt on it an check the boil off rate again.

 

[DuncB]

Have to admit when I peer into my kettle and it's boiling there are drips coming off the lid but I'm assuming that the DMS is more volatile than water and I haven't had any problems with DMS at all.
My boil off rate is only about 650ml per hour now and so I've had to adjust the equipment profile a bit to account for this.

 

[McMullan]

Boil off rate confirmed at about 9.4% per hour. Almost twice what I was expecting, but there doesn't seem to be any user control over the boil on the new BM. Seems to be an all-or-nothing affair. Quite a vigorous boil. I think Speidel need to fix that in a future software update. I prefer a less vigorous boil these days.

Edit: This is a bit surreal. Vigorous boil without any noticeable steam escaping:

 

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This is a bit surreal. Vigorous boil without any noticeable steam escaping:

I've seen that at times in my life. Something along the lines of the boiled water becoming an invisible gas, steam being what is seen when that gas condenses back together above the boiling water itself, and that amount of condensing (if any) depending on other conditions like temperature and humidity in the room.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I've seen that at times in my life. Something along the lines of the boiled water becoming an invisible gas, steam being what is seen when that gas condenses back together above the boiling water itself, and that amount of condensing (if any) depending on other conditions like temperature and humidity in the room.

Steam is invisible. What is visible is the phase change that occurs when it encounters cooler air and turns back to liquid. Steam is dry too, in fact you can light a match with super heated steam.

 

[DuncB]

in fact you can light a match with super heated steam.

There are easier ways though!

 

[DuncB]

@McMullan
That's a surprise on boil control.
You need to be able to dial the power back not control by cycling an SSR.
I think you will not be able to avoid boilover at full power with wort and hops and a lid on.

 

[Broken Crow]

You do have a downward angle on the " horizontal pipe" so early condensation runs out rather than back in?

Due to health I haven't been able to do much in a while, but I'm restless and feeling photo-happy today, so I'm using that as an excuse to share my solution to the back-flow issue:
My keggle has a domed brewbucket lid with the 1.5"TC that I can attach my condeser to, so I got a pair of 1.5">2" TC excentric adapters and put them back to back with one 'flat' side top, and the other 'flat' side opposite bottom:

Works like a charm without have to bend or tilt anything.

 

[McMullan]

@McMullan
That's a surprise on boil control.
You need to be able to dial the power back not control by cycling an SSR.
I think you will not be able to avoid boilover at full power with wort and hops and a lid on.

That's mine concern, too.

 

[DuncB]

@Broken Crow
That is a very elegant solution.
I made mine with 2 inch to start and then down to 1.5 inch with one of those reducers but just went for the simple solution of not doing the bulkhead to triclover up tight so it tilts.

 

[luckybeagle]

Not sure I'm adding much to this, but I wanted to share my experience and numbers. I recently built the steam condenser. Wow, what a game-changer. We converted half of our detached garage to a brewery/bar/hangout for the family (perpetually in progress), and the noisy, obnoxious inline fan I had on hand would've really wrecked the mood out there. It would've also had me cutting a hole in my siding to ventilate, or forced me to roll up the garage door during all sorts of weather. It is easily among the top 3 best brewing-related things I have in my system. I should've made this years ago.

FWIW, being able to brew with the kettle lid on (and condenser going) has allowed me to set the power output on my 5500w element to around 35% via the Auber Cube 2E controller. Before building the condenser, I'd be anywhere from 65 to 75%. I didn't expect it to be that dramatic. As a side benefit, on sunny days the brewery's energy draw is now completely offset by the solar panels over the garage.

Currently I just run the condensed steam/water down a utility sink, but it'd be on-theme/more green to repurpose this water (and the water I run through the plate chiller) somehow. Maybe I'll rig a valve attached to the utility sink to divert runoff water to a rain barrel or something. Anyway...

The boil-off rate with this setup is 0.8 gallons per hour, which seems to be consistent regardless of batch size. I've done 5 batches of 5.25g and 1 batch of 8.25g since building it, and was bang on each time with final volume. I boiled for 90 minutes once and achieved 1.5hr x 0.8 = 1.2 gallons of boil off over 90 minutes. Love having everything dialed-in!

I built mine using 1.5" piping and found it to be more than adequate for these batch sizes and at the power I run the heating element. I get no visible steam leakage from the boil kettle, and it allowed me to easily punch a hole in the kettle using the Harbor Freight punch kit I had on-hand from when I first built my system. I contemplated building it with 2" piping, but that would've complicated life and required yet another tool (a larger punch) to bring everything together.

This was also my first experience using Tri-clover clamping, which I'm learning is awesome. Brewing is such a slippery slope--I can see some new connections in my brewery's future.

Anyway, I love it when analog/non-moving parts requiring minimal service replace more complicated ones. The inline fan would've had me dealing with drippy issues, potentially draining from the fan housing, the potential for rust, worn out fan motors, vibration issues, the need to purchase a 3 or 4" hole saw, dryer ducting, fabbing up a hood, etc. It would've easily exceeded the $125 or so that I spent on this gizmo. Not hating on ducted and ventilated systems--this one just works best and kept life most simple for me.

 

[DuncB]

@luckybeagle
That looks great.

Not sure whether you can get them in USA but I picked up several of the liquid containers that are used commercially. They are plastic and sit in a metal cage, often nuisance value to the people who emptied them. Only cost me 5 US dollars each. They hold a 1000 litres so are great for rainwater, brew water capture. I suppose I could use mine for a heatsink if I went down the heat exchanger route with my cooling water.

Agreed noisy fans should be banned.

 

[luckybeagle]

@luckybeagle
That looks great.

Not sure whether you can get them in USA but I picked up several of the liquid containers that are used commercially. They are plastic and sit in a metal cage, often nuisance value to the people who emptied them. Only cost me 5 US dollars each. They hold a 1000 litres so are great for rainwater, brew water capture. I suppose I could use mine for a heatsink if I went down the heat exchanger route with my cooling water.

Agreed noisy fans should be banned.

Thanks! And I like that heatsink idea. Lots of thermal mass for cooling wort down without heating up the water in the vessel, if I'm understanding correctly. Very green!

We have a reclaim store near us--they have all sorts of things like that as they receive surplus and donated items from contractors, landscaping companies, local businesses etc. They do have rain barrels there, but something more along the lines of what you're describing might be better. I'll have to take a look next time I'm on that side of town.

 

[DuncB]

@luckybeagle

These are the things I got. They often have syrups or shampoos etc so safe once washed out. Often on ebay as well.
https://www.bb.net.nz/product/plastic-tank/

 

[RocketBrewer]

@luckybeagle

These are the things I got. They often have syrups or shampoos etc so safe once washed out. Often on ebay as well.
https://www.bb.net.nz/product/plastic-tank/

This is exactly what I use to collect water from brewing. I have 2 side by side and use a pump to cool with these via my counter flow chiller. Depending on the season and whether I'm doing an ale or a lager, I might have to involve some ice and a prechiller coil. When it gets really hot, I use tap water but still collect it . If too much collects in the tanks, I use the pump and water trees with it. We really have to watch water consumption in CA these days

 

[Mad Mann]

After most of the SMM (DMS precursor) is converted in the wort, it is possible to rid all the DMS from your wort in a few minutes of additional boiling and venting. Most SMM is converted in about a half hour at sea level, but the conversion rate slows with higher elevation and the lower boiling point. DMS boils at body temperature (98F) and our typical kettle temps are more than enough to get it out of the wort. A nice, active boil with a more open venting to the atmosphere is highly likely to expel all DMS from the wort. I open my kettle for the last 10 minutes for that purpose.

Jumping on this thread a little late... are there any issues with reusing the ambient temp water? I currently use two, 10G vessels and reuse the water with my steam condenser for no wasted water.

 

[luckybeagle]

Jumping on this thread a little late... are there any issues with reusing the ambient temp water? I currently use two, 10G vessels and reuse the water with my steam condenser for no wasted water.

Are you asking about reusing your water runoff from your steam condenser for brewing a subsequent batch of beer?

That's an interesting idea if that's what you meant!

I wouldn't know where to start with adjusting the water profile, since most of it would be tap water and some of it would be whatever compounds are able to attach to steam vapor. I'd think that, at minimum, you'd need to run it through a carbon filter. It'd be easy to calculate the ratio of condensed steam to tap water though, I'd think?

You could always brew a small smash beer with it and treat it as you would regular tap water (if you adjust with brewing salts) to see if you get anything weird. That would be a really cool and insightful experiment. Heck, do a side-by-side of it with your normal water source, document it, and get featured on Brulosophy? I suppose there are some unknown variables (exact composition of the steam, how that changes from batch to batch, how/if different grist bills, weights and hops used affects the steam composition, and how it affects the tap it's mixed with), but on a homebrewer's scale it probably answers enough questions justify using it again as brewing liquor, or for something else.

I often think about the water I waste between running XXX gallons of water through my plate chiller, steam condenser, and RO unit. It would be really cool to repurpose this water. I have solar panels on my garage that, on a perfectly sunny day, offset the juice used by my brewery (I get about 2500w on a clear, sunny day, and I run my heating element at 42% with the lid and condenser on (2310 watts). The idea of a solar powered, minimal waste brewery is awesome.

 

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Huh. My steam condenser's water, for the first 10 - 20 minutes at least, STINKS. I don't think I'd ever reuse it for anything.

If I was trying to conserve I'd just have the steam condenser's water supplied by a pump and run closed loop from a bucket. Throw some ice at it occasionally if needed.

I might consider reusing it for cleaning, or collect it to water plants, but never drink it.

 

[Zenmeister]

I might consider reusing it for cleaning, or collect it to water plants, but never drink it.

Exactly this. IMO. Once the water passes through the steam condenser, it is toast for anything but watering plants. I wouldn't even use it for cleaning, as it has a slick, greasy feel.

 

[Mad Mann]

Are you asking about reusing your water runoff from your steam condenser for brewing a subsequent batch of beer?

That's an interesting idea if that's what you meant!

I wouldn't know where to start with adjusting the water profile, since most of it would be tap water and some of it would be whatever compounds are able to attach to steam vapor. I'd think that, at minimum, you'd need to run it through a carbon filter. It'd be easy to calculate the ratio of condensed steam to tap water though, I'd think?

You could always brew a small smash beer with it and treat it as you would regular tap water (if you adjust with brewing salts) to see if you get anything weird. That would be a really cool and insightful experiment. Heck, do a side-by-side of it with your normal water source, document it, and get featured on Brulosophy? I suppose there are some unknown variables (exact composition of the steam, how that changes from batch to batch, how/if different grist bills, weights and hops used affects the steam composition, and how it affects the tap it's mixed with), but on a homebrewer's scale it probably answers enough questions justify using it again as brewing liquor, or for something else.

I often think about the water I waste between running XXX gallons of water through my plate chiller, steam condenser, and RO unit. It would be really cool to repurpose this water. I have solar panels on my garage that, on a perfectly sunny day, offset the juice used by my brewery (I get about 2500w on a clear, sunny day, and I run my heating element at 42% with the lid and condenser on (2310 watts). The idea of a solar powered, minimal waste brewery is awesome.

Yes, that is exactly what I was referencing. My thought is the condenser lid water "Should" not interact with the wort since it it going straight down the tube and then recirculating through a 10G vessel. Ive brewed multiple time like this and I am unable to discern any off flavors. The brew water is filtered and then treated with Camden tablets.

 

[GregKelley]

I'm pretty frugal in reusing things. I would not reuse the water from this, even for cleaning. Just my opinion. You could cool it and dump in the garden.

 

[luckybeagle]

Hmm, I'm curious now. During my next brew day I'll collect a little sample of runoff from my condenser and give it a taste. My hot tub is due for a water change, so if it tastes funky I'm sure a heavy dose of bromine will take care of any issues. Wouldn't be much trouble to run the out post of my plate chiller over to the tub, either. Anyone ever swim in their own beer wastewater?

 

[Bobby_M]

Yes, that is exactly what I was referencing. My thought is the condenser lid water "Should" not interact with the wort since it it going straight down the tube and then recirculating through a 10G vessel. Ive brewed multiple time like this and I am unable to discern any off flavors. The brew water is filtered and then treated with Camden tablets.

Well if you're using the type of steam condenser we've been discussing here, like my product the "Steam Slayer" or Spike's Lid, etc, then the output water is a combination of your input tap water and condensed steam from the boiling wort. That contains volatile compounds, including but not limited to DMS, which you certainly don't want ending up back in your new beer. One of the primary reasons we boil wort in the first place is to remove those things.

If you're using the Spike solution, that cooling water is pumped from a bucket so THAT water can be re-used as cooling water but not brewing water for the next beer.

 

[Mad Mann]

Well if you're using the type of steam condenser we've been discussing here, like my product the "Steam Slayer" or Spike's Lid, etc, then the output water is a combination of your input tap water and condensed steam from the boiling wort. That contains volatile compounds, including but not limited to DMS, which you certainly don't want ending up back in your new beer. One of the primary reasons we boil wort in the first place is to remove those things.

If you're using the Spike solution, that cooling water is pumped from a bucket so THAT water can be re-used as cooling water but not brewing water for the next beer.

Thank you for clarification! Only reusing for cooling water! Would hate to taste beer made of that!!!

 

[marc1]

I reuse some of the condenser water for cleaning: the initial rinsing of the kettle of all the trub, then refilling above the element for a hot percarbonate/metasilicate soak, and then a rinse of that out. After that I use fresh water for a Barkeeper's Friend touch up and rinse.

 

[DavidWood2115]

Has anyone considered the effectiveness of a steam condenser for reducing oxygen uptake during the boil? I ask because I was recently visiting the De Halve Maan brewery in Bruges, Belgium and their boil was extremely vigorous, to say the least. I initially thought this surprising since many European breweries employ at least modest low-oxygen techniques. But then I started thinking about the rate of steam production and @doug293cz's observation in a separate thread that fume hoods for toxic chemicals target 100 ft/min linear flow rates. So, I thought "what about at the home-brew scale?"

Here's my analysis for a 1.5" steam-slayer:

boil off rate = 0.5 gallons/hour
boil time = 60 minutes
steam volume @ 213F = 27.2 ft^3/lb
boil off steam volume = 27.2 ft^3/lb * 8 lb/gal * 0.5 gal/hr * 1 hour = 108.8 ft^3
steam condenser diameter = 1.5"
steam condenser cross sectional area = pi*.75^2 = 2.36 in^2 = .01227 ft^2
steam exhaust rate = 108.8 ft^3 / .01227 ft/2 / 60 min = 147.8 ft/min

If this is the right analysis, this suggests that the rate of steam generation is fast enough to prevent oxygen from entering through the steam condenser. Of course, the lid doesn't provide a perfect seal (unlike the view port in the brew kettle at De Halve Maan brewery), but I wonder how much air entry actually comes in that way.

Thoughts?

 

[DuncB]

I'm sure that others will leap in and correct me but steam generation is just water becoming gas.

Solubility of oxygen in water is affected by temperature, higher the temperature less solubility.
The higher the pressure the more oxygen can be dissolved in the water.

This graph indicates just boiling the water ( at atmospheric pressure) will mean hardly any oxygen is dissolved and wort often boils at above 100C due to the sugars. Nitrogen about 100x less soluble in water although air has 4x more nitrogen than oxygen.

Bringing it off the boil ie lower temperature increases solubility so the as soon as cooling starts the oxygen will increase unless you have an environment without oxygen. A fully enclosed pressure cooker will get close but then you'd need to keep the pressure seal as the steam condenses the pressure would drop above the liquid. It would drop below atmospheric but not much good for us brewers.

Also if you lowered the pressure above the wort with such an efficient seal on the kettle and a venturi affect from your water spray the boiling point would be lower hence lower temp less soluble but also less soluble as lower pressure so probably equilibrium of no oxygen again. The lower boiling point and hence temperature would affect other reactions that occur in wort, just try making a decent cup of tea or cooking food at altitude.

In summary steam production or visibility has nothing to do with the oxygen coming out of solution or going in.

I expect @doug293cz will be marking my home work, hopefully with a half thumbs up at least before a deep explanation of Henrys law.

 

[doug293cz]

I'm sure that others will leap in and correct me but steam generation is just water becoming gas.

Solubility of oxygen in water is affected by temperature, higher the temperature less solubility.
The higher the pressure the more oxygen can be dissolved in the water.

This graph indicates just boiling the water ( at atmospheric pressure) will mean hardly any oxygen is dissolved and wort often boils at above 100C due to the sugars. Nitrogen about 100x less soluble in water although air has 4x more nitrogen than oxygen.

View attachment 822530

Bringing it off the boil ie lower temperature increases solubility so the as soon as cooling starts the oxygen will increase unless you have an environment without oxygen. A fully enclosed pressure cooker will get close but then you'd need to keep the pressure seal as the steam condenses the pressure would drop above the liquid. It would drop below atmospheric but not much good for us brewers.

Also if you lowered the pressure above the wort with such an efficient seal on the kettle and a venturi affect from your water spray the boiling point would be lower hence lower temp less soluble but also less soluble as lower pressure so probably equilibrium of no oxygen again. The lower boiling point and hence temperature would affect other reactions that occur in wort, just try making a decent cup of tea or cooking food at altitude.

In summary steam production or visibility has nothing to do with the oxygen coming out of solution or going in.

I expect @doug293cz will be marking my home work, hopefully with a half thumbs up at least before a deep explanation of Henrys law.

I don't feel the need to add anything here.

Brew on

 

[Bad Bubba]

Has anyone considered the effectiveness of a steam condenser for reducing oxygen uptake during the boil? I ask because I was recently visiting the De Halve Maan brewery in Bruges, Belgium and their boil was extremely vigorous, to say the least. I initially thought this surprising since many European breweries employ at least modest low-oxygen techniques. But then I started thinking about the rate of steam production and @doug293cz's observation in a separate thread that fume hoods for toxic chemicals target 100 ft/min linear flow rates. So, I thought "what about at the home-brew scale?"

Here's my analysis for a 1.5" steam-slayer:

boil off rate = 0.5 gallons/hour
boil time = 60 minutes
steam volume @ 213F = 27.2 ft^3/lb
boil off steam volume = 27.2 ft^3/lb * 8 lb/gal * 0.5 gal/hr * 1 hour = 108.8 ft^3
steam condenser diameter = 1.5"
steam condenser cross sectional area = pi*.75^2 = 2.36 in^2 = .01227 ft^2
steam exhaust rate = 108.8 ft^3 / .01227 ft/2 / 60 min = 147.8 ft/min

If this is the right analysis, this suggests that the rate of steam generation is fast enough to prevent oxygen from entering through the steam condenser. Of course, the lid doesn't provide a perfect seal (unlike the view port in the brew kettle at De Halve Maan brewery), but I wonder how much air entry actually comes in that way.

Thoughts?

Steam condenser should have no impact on Oxygen uptake. Boiling basically deoxygenates the wort. Linear velocity is more for capture efficiency of droplets, larger droplets require higher velocity. Unless I am missing something we really are more interested in capturing vapors than droplets. A vent hood situation would need to worry about capture velocity. The steam condenser is a closed system

 

[DuncB]

I don't feel the need to add anything here.

Brew on

Wow I'm learning.