Boil kettle condenser - no overhead ventilation needed

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Good job comming up this BrunDog.
Neat solution,
I currently brew outside and admire the clouds of steam from my eHERMS setup especually on cold days but if/when I get a new garage/hobby room built i might have a use for this
 
I built the 1.5" side-mount condenser with the ~6gph nozzle. I went all in yesterday for only my 2nd brew with this with a 94% pilsner Czech Pils, 90 min boil. I'll report back on the results once I have some info.
 
Observation/question about a recent test I did to find boil-off rate.

I put 12 gallons of water in the 25 gallon aluminum kettle and boiled. I'm using the condenser as BrunDog designed, and with a 9gph sprayer.

I kept the brown solar pump running the entire time so I can get accurate temp readings. I use CraftbeerPi 3.0.

For a while when starting to boil, I still get steam escaping from the lid - even with some weight on the lid. I also occasionally get steam during the boil, but for much/most of it, there is no steam. That was at 35% power on a 5500w element.
My waste water is about 175F after exiting about a 12' hose.

I dropped the power down to 9% and still had steam escaping. My 1-wire sensor says the temp just before the pump is running at 209.53F. The highest I've seen the temp during boil is 209.85F.

I messed around with the power percentage, wondering if it's even doing anything. I dropped it down to 3% and after a couple minutes, the temp dropped to 209.41. I dropped the power to 1% and after about 5 minutes, the temp went UP to 209.86, but then dropped back down to 209.53. I suspect that the power percentage is doing nothing, and the changes in temp are likely just small fluctuations in my sensor instead of actual changes in water temp. Though I "think" that the kettle 'vibrated' a little more due to boiling when I had a higher power setting - so, I'm not sure whether there may have been actual changes in boil strength when I adjusted the power. Does the "type" of control used matter? (Hysteresis, PID, PWM, etc).

The boil-off after 1 hour was 1.75 gallons. That seems really high. I had just 10.25 gallons left. My kettle is wider than tall though. 21.5" W x 17.5" High.

The ambient temp was 54F

Is this normal?
 
What do you mean "kept the pump running"? Assuming this pumping the boiling liquid - you really do not need to do that. The convection from the heating element and boiling liquid will recirculate plenty.

In my experience, the hose needs to be open at the bottom. If it is under water, it can't "breathe" and some steam doesn't make it into the condenser.

I can't speak for your boiling system. You just need enough power to maintain a proper boil. The number doesn't matter much. Of course you can't see it, so you have to pull the lid off from time to time to see what is happening - which will likely kill the boil. With small power outputs percentages and long duty cycle periods, you may get pulsing, which is not desired. In that case, lower the duty cycle to 1 second.

I don't know CBPi well, but you want to boil in a duty cycle (or PWM, depending on the frequency) type of mode. I would suspect that the Pi cannot accurately or consistently time I/O changes if this is performed in software. The real-time OS does not guarantee timing - this could explain why you don't see any difference. If the timing is done in hardware, then the output should adjust with small changes.

1.75 seems high for an hour. A wider kettle will definitely boil off more. But the power rate will control this mostly - you want a proper gentle rolling boil... not a class 5 rapid.
 
If I shut my pump off, I don't get accurate temp readings. I know that during a real brew, I don't need to monitor temp during boil and the pump won't be on - I only had it on this time as a "test" to try and see if the setup was working as I thought it would. The temp sensor is outside the kettle, in a Tee where the pump connects. Without "wort" flow past it, the temp sensor cools down outside the kettle.

The waste hose is open. It's about 12' long garden hose and drains down my driveway. There's a constant stream of hot water coming out of it the entire time of the boil (175F).

I double-checked my kettle heater logic mode - it's set to Mod_PWM_Logic. Other options are Hysteresis, PID Arduino, PID Boil and Simple Boil Logic. I may have to post a question on the CBPi thread - asking about what does what, or what I should be using. I'm also not sure how to set a duty cycle in CBPi.

Regarding the boil-off rate. I should try a test without using the condenser system and see what a "normal" boil-off rate is. I could also monitor the boil intensity better and see what power setting to use. Then....adjust lower when using the boil steam condenser.

I'm hoping to do a real brew in the next 2 weeks.
 
I saw a thread the other day (and can't find it now) where a guy converted a stainless kettle into a fermentor by slitting a silicone hose and wrapping it around the rim of the kettle. Then he pushed the lid down and held it there with binder clips for an air-tight seal. If the escaping steam is making your work area too humid, you might borrow at least part of that idea.
 
I dropped the power down to 9% and still had steam escaping. My 1-wire sensor says the temp just before the pump is running at 209.53F. The highest I've seen the temp during boil is 209.85F.

I messed around with the power percentage, wondering if it's even doing anything. I dropped it down to 3% and after a couple minutes, the temp dropped to 209.41. I dropped the power to 1% and after about 5 minutes, the temp went UP to 209.86, but then dropped back down to 209.53. I suspect that the power percentage is doing nothing, and the changes in temp are likely just small fluctuations in my sensor instead of actual changes in water temp. Though I "think" that the kettle 'vibrated' a little more due to boiling when I had a higher power setting - so, I'm not sure whether there may have been actual changes in boil strength when I adjusted the power. Does the "type" of control used matter? (Hysteresis, PID, PWM, etc).

Keep in mind that your boil temperature won't change based on how rigorous of a boil you have. If you are boiling, you are at 212F (at sea level for water; it varies a little based on elevation and wort gravity). The boiling point does not change, no matter if you are boiling at 10% or 100% power.

If I shut my pump off, I don't get accurate temp readings. I know that during a real brew, I don't need to monitor temp during boil and the pump won't be on - I only had it on this time as a "test" to try and see if the setup was working as I thought it would. The temp sensor is outside the kettle, in a Tee where the pump connects. Without "wort" flow past it, the temp sensor cools down outside the kettle.

My current setup is the same; my kettle probe is actually in my piping just after my pump. I did it this way mainly to avoid having to unplug the sensor from the kettle every time I take it over to the sink to clean - I already have to disconnect 2 hoses + the element power cord, so I'm not sure another thing to disconnect is a huge deal, so I will probably move it to the kettle on my next upgrade. As you point out, the main limitation is that you have to run the pump in order to know how close to boiling temperature you are.
 
I just added the steam condenser to my BK and performed a "water drill". I have a 4500 watt element that I run at 85% power which yields a 1.2 gal/hr boil off with a preboil volume of 14 gal. My house water pressure is 30 psi and I am using the 6 gph nozzle. Here are my results using 50% power and 40% power for 1 hour.

50% power:
Drainage temp: 158-185F
Boil off: 0.46 gallon
Percent boil off: 3.3

40% power:
Drainage temp: 120-140F
Boil off: 0.59 gallon
Percent boil off: 4.2

I am surprised that I boiled off more water with a lower power. Is that because I overwhelmed spray nozzles ability to create the phase change?? Would I be better off with the 9 gph nozzle?
 
I repeated the experiment today paying closer attention to volumes and thermal expansion, etc. It was also daytime and I could see the lines better on my stainless ruler.

40% power:
drainage temp: 152-159F
boil off: 0.47 gal (3.2%)

50% power:
drainage temp: 177-185F
boil off: 0.67 gal (4.6%)

As BrunDog points out, this could be random variation. Either way, I have about 0.5 gal/hr boil off.

What is the ideal temp of the waste water? Obviously, if it is very low, you are wasting water but if it is very high, you may not be getting optimal phase change in the condenser.

I would like to get more boil off as I brew mostly lagers. With the system as it currently is, I am stuck with a 2 hour boil.
 
To the contrary... commercial breweries target 4-6% boil off. Remember it is not a volume goal - it is a volatile goal. The commercials brew with sealed boilers with vent stacks. So you would adjust your recipe to suit the boil off, not the other way around.

Also, the LODO guys will tell you that more intensive boiling is more detrimental to the wort. The old days of boiling hard and/or long are known now to produce beer that stales faster.
 
I repeated the experiment today paying closer attention to volumes and thermal expansion, etc. It was also daytime and I could see the lines better on my stainless ruler.

40% power:
drainage temp: 152-159F
boil off: 0.47 gal (3.2%)

50% power:
drainage temp: 177-185F
boil off: 0.67 gal (4.6%)

As BrunDog points out, this could be random variation. Either way, I have about 0.5 gal/hr boil off.

What is the ideal temp of the waste water? Obviously, if it is very low, you are wasting water but if it is very high, you may not be getting optimal phase change in the condenser.

I would like to get more boil off as I brew mostly lagers. With the system as it currently is, I am stuck with a 2 hour boil.
Are you really sure that you need a minimum volume of boil off? DMS boils at 99°F (37°C) so it's going to boil off pretty much as fast as it is created during the boil. So, how fast DMS is evaporated is going to be controlled primarily by how fast the SMM precursor is converted to DMS. SMM doesn't convert to DMS significantly at temps below 70°C (158°F) [ref: http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Dimethyl_Sulfide.] The interesting thing is that DMS creation continues as you cool from boiling down to about 70°C (158°F), and that DMS will continue evaporating from the wort almost as fast as it is created. However, the spray condenser is not going to be evacuating much from the BK headspace once steam generation slows way down. So, to minimize the potential for DMS retention in the wort, you probably want to remove the lid from the BK so that the DMS created during initial cool down can escape before the BK cools to the temperature where the evaporated DMS can start condensing on the BK walls and running back into the wort. The linked reference makes the point that open cooling is critical to residual DMS minimization, and my opinion (which could change after some additional study) based on the reference is that open cooling is more important than boil time or boil off rate.

I would recommend that you try 90 minute and 60 minute boils, at your lower than previous boil off rate, but make sure to remove the BK lid about a minute after you cut the heat to the BK (to let steam generation slow down.) You can re-cover the BK when the temp drops to about 60°C (140°F) to minimize the possibility of tramp microbes inoculating your wort if you wish. My expectation is that you will not have any DMS issues.

Brew on :mug:
 
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So, if I understand the reference, the rate limiting issue with DMS is the conversion rate from SMM as opposed to evaporation of DMS. Thus, boil length helps because during a longer boil, more of the SMM gets converted into DMS which is then volatilized. Half life of SMM conversion to DMS is about 35 minutes at boiling temps. So it is the length of the boil per se that ultimately reduces DMS rather than the strength of the boil or the boil off rate??

I went to 90 min boils many years ago because of a bad experience with DMS. I am motivated to try the steam condenser and brew in my basement. I will give it a go and see what happens. Removing the lid at flame out makes sense to me.
 
So, if I understand the reference, the rate limiting issue with DMS is the conversion rate from SMM as opposed to evaporation of DMS. Thus, boil length helps because during a longer boil, more of the SMM gets converted into DMS which is then volatilized. Half life of SMM conversion to DMS is about 35 minutes at boiling temps. So it is the length of the boil per se that ultimately reduces DMS rather than the strength of the boil or the boil off rate??

I went to 90 min boils many years ago because of a bad experience with DMS. I am motivated to try the steam condenser and brew in my basement. I will give it a go and see what happens. Removing the lid at flame out makes sense to me.
That's my understanding. I want to dig deeper into the references of that article to see if they have anything about whether or not boil off rate affects the evaporation rate of DMS. Doesn't seem like it should have a large effect, but I could be wrong as this is new territory for me.

Brew on :mug:
 
DMS is also pH dependent. DMS will split twice as fast at a pH of 5.4, than it will at 5.2.

DMS IS REAL, with soft boils. You need to volatilize it out of the wort. There are many professional systems that pull a vacuum and do other things to deal with this.

With my lid (and cut out) I am able to smell DMS escaping from the kettle. If my pH is low (~5.2) it will take nearly 60 minutes of a soft boil to get it out and I boil for 70 minutes ( I have since stopped doing this, but it's a data point). If my pH is ~5.4 I see it leave about the 30 minute mark, and then boil for about another 30 minutes ( 60 total). My boil off is right about 6%, either way ( lower pH or higher pH) so its not really "boil off" dependent. It's more like maltster and pH dependent.
 
DMS is also pH dependent. DMS will split twice as fast at a pH of 5.4, than it will at 5.2.

DMS IS REAL, with soft boils. You need to volatilize it out of the wort. There are many professional systems that pull a vacuum and do other things to deal with this.

With my lid (and cut out) I am able to smell DMS escaping from the kettle. If my pH is low (~5.2) it will take nearly 60 minutes of a soft boil to get it out and I boil for 70 minutes ( I have since stopped doing this, but it's a data point). If my pH is ~5.4 I see it leave about the 30 minute mark, and then boil for about another 30 minutes ( 60 total). My boil off is right about 6%, either way ( lower pH or higher pH) so its not really "boil off" dependent. It's more like maltster and pH dependent.
The reference I linked earlier (http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Dimethyl_Sulfide} does note a pH dependency for conversion of SMM to DMS, but not as strong a dependency as you seem to notice. They list a SMM half life of 38 minutes @ pH 5.2 vs. 32.5 min @ 5.5 pH both at 100°C (212°F.) SMM half life increases pretty rapidly as temperature drops.

Brew on :mug:
 
DMS is also pH dependent. DMS will split twice as fast at a pH of 5.4, than it will at 5.2.

DMS IS REAL, with soft boils. You need to volatilize it out of the wort. There are many professional systems that pull a vacuum and do other things to deal with this.

With my lid (and cut out) I am able to smell DMS escaping from the kettle. If my pH is low (~5.2) it will take nearly 60 minutes of a soft boil to get it out and I boil for 70 minutes ( I have since stopped doing this, but it's a data point). If my pH is ~5.4 I see it leave about the 30 minute mark, and then boil for about another 30 minutes ( 60 total). My boil off is right about 6%, either way ( lower pH or higher pH) so its not really "boil off" dependent. It's more like maltster and pH dependent.

Maybe a bit off topic and just thinking out loud here but would using a hop basket/spider setup contribute to DMS in that a partial volume of wort (volume of wort in basket vs volume in kettle) is not necessarily being boiled at the same intensity due to the restriction caused by the screen mesh and hop debris itself? . Reading thru the WIKI referenced earlier I came across this which got me thinking. " During the boil, the converted DMS is evaporated off due to its low boiling temperature of 37.3°C [1] and the convection currents of the boil. Unhomogenized boiling of the wort can be a cause of DMS (e.g. dead-spots where the wort doesn't mix throughout the boil kettle)"
 
Maybe a bit off topic and just thinking out loud here but would using a hop basket/spider setup contribute to DMS in that a partial volume of wort (volume of wort in basket vs volume in kettle) is not necessarily being boiled at the same intensity due to the restriction caused by the screen mesh and hop debris itself? . Reading thru the WIKI referenced earlier I came across this which got me thinking. " During the boil, the converted DMS is evaporated off due to its low boiling temperature of 37.3°C [1] and the convection currents of the boil. Unhomogenized boiling of the wort can be a cause of DMS (e.g. dead-spots where the wort doesn't mix throughout the boil kettle)"
Getting rid of DMS is pretty easy at boiling temps, once it is formed from the SMM. The thing that takes longer is converting most of the SMM to DMS so that it can boil off. Residual SMM in the wort/beer can turn to DMS later if the level isn't reduced enough during the boil. So, time at boiling temp is more important the vigor of the boil. If you understand the charts in the reference, they show that DMS evaporates pretty rapidly even below boiling temp (zero boiling vigor.) Boiling vigor probably has some effect on the evaporation rate of DMS, but even at zero boiling vigor, DMS still evaporates faster than it is formed from SMM. According to the reference, the most important things to worry about are boiling long enough (regardless of vigor) and, allowing free evaporation of DMS during the early part of the cooling process (including any whirlpool/hop stand), by having the boil vessel uncovered.

So no, I don't think using a basket/hop spider will have much effect on DMS elimination.

Brew on :mug:
 
I agree that 10G BIAB may be optimistic and 2 vessel is a better approach. That said, it wasn't the question you asked me, so...

What will be the boil-off rate? And what is the temperature of the water that you will be spraying (you need to tell me, not the other way around)? Those are needed to figure out how much spray water will be needed.

Finally getting around to this again... We decided to take the advice from the thread and ditch the 10 barrel BIAB idea. Thankyou BrunDog and stevehaun for helping with this. We are going with a 3 vessel electric approach, HLT, MLT and Kettle all converted from similar 212 gal conical bottom pressure vessels. These are better suited for fermentors but we are limited in funds. The HLT is complete and the kettle is in the shop ready for fabrication. Attached is a picture of the HLT from a few weeks ago..

HLT.jpg


We have currently sourced the items we think we need to make this condenser a reality. Shown below is 4" triclover fittings. We like the idea of coming straight off the sidewall of the vessel with an elbow in which we will weld a port on the vertical axis of the elbow. This will adapt to whatever fitting is needed for the sprayer. Disregard the horizontal outlet of the tee as this will be a straight piece of pipe in its place. The side mount will also serve as an overflow protection.

Condenser.jpg


To get back to the original questions...

We do not currently know the boil off rate but we are supplying an adjustable 45K watts over 5.5barrels preboil. We hope to a boil off of 5-10%, i believe these are industry standards. There is some learning curve here as this is new equipment..

The source water will be approx 70deg on average. We may see as low as 60 in the winter and as high as 80 in the summer, pressures are unknown. We can however use water from our cold liquor tank if this will help.

Any help would be greatly appreciated! Need to confirm this design is appropriately sized for our system as well as sprayer head requirements.. We have high pressure pumps to help supply as well..
 
Finally getting around to this again... We decided to take the advice from the thread and ditch the 10 barrel BIAB idea. Thankyou BrunDog and stevehaun for helping with this. We are going with a 3 vessel electric approach, HLT, MLT and Kettle all converted from similar 212 gal conical bottom pressure vessels. These are better suited for fermentors but we are limited in funds. The HLT is complete and the kettle is in the shop ready for fabrication. Attached is a picture of the HLT from a few weeks ago..

View attachment 570516

We have currently sourced the items we think we need to make this condenser a reality. Shown below is 4" triclover fittings. We like the idea of coming straight off the sidewall of the vessel with an elbow in which we will weld a port on the vertical axis of the elbow. This will adapt to whatever fitting is needed for the sprayer. Disregard the horizontal outlet of the tee as this will be a straight piece of pipe in its place. The side mount will also serve as an overflow protection.

View attachment 570519

To get back to the original questions...

We do not currently know the boil off rate but we are supplying an adjustable 45K watts over 5.5barrels preboil. We hope to a boil off of 5-10%, i believe these are industry standards. There is some learning curve here as this is new equipment..

The source water will be approx 70deg on average. We may see as low as 60 in the winter and as high as 80 in the summer, pressures are unknown. We can however use water from our cold liquor tank if this will help.

Any help would be greatly appreciated! Need to confirm this design is appropriately sized for our system as well as sprayer head requirements.. We have high pressure pumps to help supply as well..
You might want to check probrewer for info since stout sells a similiar condenser unit for their 3bbl and up systems and has been for quite some time. I almost bought one from sungood machinery and I remember it had multiple spray nozzles along the side of it.

EDIT I just looked it up.. as you can see theres 3 nozzle sprayers and they list the mcmaster carr part number for them.
https://conical-fermenter.com/SP500CONDENSER-1325-Condenser.html
 
You might want to check probrewer for info since stout sells a similiar condenser unit for their 3bbl and up systems and has been for quite some time. I almost bought one from sungood machinery and I remember it had multiple spray nozzles along the side of it.

EDIT I just looked it up.. as you can see theres 3 nozzle sprayers and they list the mcmaster carr part number for them.
https://conical-fermenter.com/SP500CONDENSER-1325-Condenser.html

Great resource! Thanks for sharing! The issue I see is we have 4” pipe and they are using 6”. You think this will be an issue?

They are using (3) .9 gph at 100psi. Which is considerably less water over batch size. This may be due to increased surface area with more nozzles? I like the idea of using 90 deg spray nozzles which allows for mounting in the vertical pipe, I don’t have to mess with coping into the elbow.
 
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The spray can go in any direction. They key is maximum mixing... if you come in from the side, get wide angle nozzles. Spraying water onto the sidewall serves no purpose.

Ok good to know- I’ll keep that in mind when designing.

Can you help me out with the math in my efforts to confirm the 4” pipe is large enough. Even a point in the direction for me to work out the solution to the equations here would be helpful.
 
Just an update for those who might be skeptical about using this type of system. I entered my Maibock in my HB club monthly competition last night. "Bock beers" in general was the competition and four of them were Maibocks. My beer took second and only due to flaws in the recipe, no DMS or other off flavors were detected. My club has many great brewers and a number of BJCP judges.
 
Just an update for those who might be skeptical about using this type of system. I entered my Maibock in my HB club monthly competition last night. "Bock beers" in general was the competition and four of them were Maibocks. My beer took second and only due to flaws in the recipe, no DMS or other off flavors were detected. My club has many great brewers and a number of BJCP judges.
Just brewed my 10th or so batch with mine, working great. 9th-ish batch was a parti gyle, boiled 2 in one day. Love my condenser!
 
Just brewed my 10th or so batch with mine, working great. 9th-ish batch was a parti gyle, boiled 2 in one day. Love my condenser!
Agree! This system works great. We took third place for an IPA we brewed in the first round of the National Homebrew Competition using the condenser. Don't hesitate to use BrunDog's condenser.
 
@BrunDog Thank you for this design. I just did my first run from my basement, and am super happy with the results. It's flawless. I built the 1.5" version for my 20g Spike kettle. Boiling 13g of lager right now with no steam to be found.
 
The spray can go in any direction. They key is maximum mixing... if you come in from the side, get wide angle nozzles. Spraying water onto the sidewall serves no purpose.
I worked up a spread sheet using a picture you posted as a reference.

5-26-18 Condenser Calcs.png


I plan to use 4" triclover assembly like shown below, using 90deg sprayer nozzles 70deg pattern in vertical tube.
https://www.mcmaster.com/#31975K12
The design will be similar in nature to Stouts version (thanks Auggie), trying to figure out why they went with 6" instead of smaller..
https://conical-fermenter.com/SP500CONDENSER-1325-Condenser.html
I'm estimating 6% for boil off but have no clue, It will be electric so I'm sure we can hit whatever boil off we want. You think 6% is a good starting point? I appreciate the help.

Condenser.jpg
 
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Your math is generally correct but seems impractical at this scale and spray water temp. I calculate needing a theoretical net spray volume ~80 gph. That's a lot of water to dump. You could target a lower boil-off, say 4%, but it might be hard to control to maintain a boil so I would stay with the current rate.

With this size boil, you might consider the standard vent stack as a more practical solution.
 
Your math is generally correct but seems impractical at this scale and spray water temp. I calculate needing a theoretical net spray volume ~80 gph. That's a lot of water to dump. You could target a lower boil-off, say 4%, but it might be hard to control to maintain a boil so I would stay with the current rate.

With this size boil, you might consider the standard vent stack as a more practical solution.

Can you elaborate on how you figure 80 gph? Spray water temp was conservative based on ground water average, it can be much lower if we pull from CLT.
 
That's the math. Your own math above is 36 * 3 = 108 gph. That is why you have a surplus of cooling power. My 5 gallon batch boil off is 1 gph, yours is 10, hence why you need 10x the cooling power of my ~7.5 gph spray rate.
 
That's the math. Your own math above is 36 * 3 = 108 gph. That is why you have a surplus of cooling power. My 5 gallon batch boil off is 1 gph, yours is 10, hence why you need 10x the cooling power of my ~7.5 gph spray rate.

Ah my bad, I was looking at the cell as a total. Even after plugging this in at 40degrees sprayer temp, we would be using 72 gallons total. I’ll reevaluate this with my partner..
 
You could get creative and pump the spray/discharge water through a radiator/fan as an liquid:air heat exchanger. It will create local heat but if you put that remote to your working space, it would work. You could use a grant (or bucket, etc.) which can overflow into a drain as you boil off the 10 gallons. That would only require a few gallons of water to start with.

Alternatively, you could pass the through a steam through a high flow liquid:air radiator directly I suppose!
 
I finally bought an 11 gallon kettle to replace my 8.5, so I'm going to finally jump on this bandwagon and build a setup that I can use 100% indoors. It'll likely take me a couple months to get all the parts ordered and assembled, but I'm excited. Will be going with a 1.5" lid mounted version with a 6gph nozzle.

Between the larger kettle size and lower boil off I'm excited to finally do some true full volume BIAB instead of the weird pseudo sparge i've been doing.
 
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