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And this was the 245 f at 85min on the stove correct?
I haven't had any time to get any experiments done...
Been a bad winter...
Bochet: A question about temperature not time.
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I haven't had any time to get any experiments done...
Been a bad winter...
Yes, that was the batch. I haven't gotten to any of the experimental data points from sharebrewing yet.
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I want to but I haven't had the time and can't afford the honey right now...
Yeah. I did do a batch of Prickly Pear Melomel 1/15/19, using PP syrup plus honey, and a little agave syrup to make OG. Last year's batch turned out so well, that I went through 2 bottles at New Year's eve, and decided to submit one to a competition to see if I'm right, or just have a lousy pallet. Leaving just 1 bottle from 2017 left. Maple syrup season is coming up, so I'll do another acerglyn, but maybe after that I can knock off one of the data points.
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I made the news last Friday when another semi jackknifed in front of me and we shut down 80/94 in Gary in for about 5ish hours...
Blacksmith1
Captain Cheap
Wow. that had to suck.
![Craft A Brew - Safale BE-256 Yeast - Fermentis - Belgian Ale Dry Yeast - For Belgian & Strong Ales - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [3 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51bcKEwQmWL._SL500_.jpg)
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Yeah... Winter fun... Think that was more enjoyable than the current dealings with the insurance company.
Blacksmith1
Captain Cheap
That I understand too well.
Cracked open a bottle yesterday. Flavor is absolutely wonderful, and makes me wish I did more than a 1G batch. Slightly sweet, a little tart, notes of apricot and prune. No marshmellow or other classic 'carmelization' flavor. Won't let me post pics- says 'file too large', but it looks exactly like the pic I posted 2/6/19.Bottled the batch of Bochet started on 12/5/2018. OG was 1.103, FG is 1.006. Color is a beautiful Ruby, taste is rather fruity, almost like a plum wine. Let you know in about a year what the final taste is.
Scored 2 qt. jars of appleblossum honey last Sunday. Going to use one to fill one of Sharebrewing's data points from 12/7/18. I'll try in the oven at 350 for 75 minutes. I'll post whatever results I get.
'AHA Mead Day' Bochet: 3 lb. of honey in oven at 350 degrees for 75 minutes. Won't let me load the file, but here's what the chart says:
0 minutes= 76*f
15 min.= 175*f, starting to get a little steam.
30min.= 220*f
45 min.= 238*f, a little foam
60 min.= 248.5*f, getting some marshmellow smell.
75 min.= 255*f amber color, light carmel, fruit flavor.
I got a little foam, but it never increased in volume, unlike the pics I've seen for stovetop.
0 minutes= 76*f
15 min.= 175*f, starting to get a little steam.
30min.= 220*f
45 min.= 238*f, a little foam
60 min.= 248.5*f, getting some marshmellow smell.
75 min.= 255*f amber color, light carmel, fruit flavor.
I got a little foam, but it never increased in volume, unlike the pics I've seen for stovetop.
CKuhns
Everything learned in Kindergarten still applies!
Here are my temperature notes from my last Bouchet - Still fermenting - Went further with this one than others I have done. Was looking for that toasted marshmallow. (Didn't really get there, maybe my nose just isn't calibrated for it.) - Used a 20 Q roaster.
10 Pounds Wildflower Honey - Stirred with a wooden spatula regularly. Sides washed periodically with water to keep it from re-crystallizing and burning. Must OG to 1.105 and added 2 pounds wildflower honey to give the yeast something to chew on early in the ferment as the two others I have done were slow to start.
Must prior to yeast pitch is coffee black, tasted pretty good, Much like a very dark Graham cracker toast, well past caramel and more like a dark (almost burnt) toffee. Was a bit surprising because it smelled a bit burnt.
Warmed the honey to allow it to pour better. 90 deg f
Heated the roaster to 250 dumped in the honey
Turned up the roaster to 350
– 135 Deg F No discernible color change
- 180 Deg F Very light tan - Just a small discernible color change
- 200 Deg F Light tan
- 215 Deg F Light tan – little darker
- 230 Deg F Tan
- 240 Deg F Medium tan
- 250 Deg F Light brown
- 260 Deg F Brown
Have stopped here in the past and turned out pretty well, almost a dark caramel like flavor but not what I was looking for this time.
- 270 Deg F Dark brown
- 280 Deg F Very Dark Brown – Starting to smell a little like very nearly burnt graham crackers.
- 290 Deg F Nearly black – Definitely smells a bit burnt
Total time nearly 4 hours. Volume swelled to about 4X's original but only right near the end.
10 Pounds Wildflower Honey - Stirred with a wooden spatula regularly. Sides washed periodically with water to keep it from re-crystallizing and burning. Must OG to 1.105 and added 2 pounds wildflower honey to give the yeast something to chew on early in the ferment as the two others I have done were slow to start.
Must prior to yeast pitch is coffee black, tasted pretty good, Much like a very dark Graham cracker toast, well past caramel and more like a dark (almost burnt) toffee. Was a bit surprising because it smelled a bit burnt.
Warmed the honey to allow it to pour better. 90 deg f
Heated the roaster to 250 dumped in the honey
Turned up the roaster to 350
– 135 Deg F No discernible color change
- 180 Deg F Very light tan - Just a small discernible color change
- 200 Deg F Light tan
- 215 Deg F Light tan – little darker
- 230 Deg F Tan
- 240 Deg F Medium tan
- 250 Deg F Light brown
- 260 Deg F Brown
Have stopped here in the past and turned out pretty well, almost a dark caramel like flavor but not what I was looking for this time.
- 270 Deg F Dark brown
- 280 Deg F Very Dark Brown – Starting to smell a little like very nearly burnt graham crackers.
- 290 Deg F Nearly black – Definitely smells a bit burnt
Total time nearly 4 hours. Volume swelled to about 4X's original but only right near the end.
Grabbed another data point: 1 gallon batch. 3 lb wildflower honey in oven at 375* for 75 minutes. A huge difference between this batch at 375 and the 350 degree batch that I did back in August. Can't really believe that 25 degrees would make all that much difference, but here's the proof. And she boiled over in the oven. Sure am glad wife is not home this weekend. Will give me time to clean up.......
OP
OP
bernardsmith
Well-Known Member
But what is the temperature of the honey? It's not the oven temp so much as the temp of the honey.
The Temps listed are measured temperature of the cooking honey.
Brett_Bellmore
Me and my better half.
I've made caramel before from table sugar, only caramelized honey once, late last year. (My bochet is still bubbling in the closet.)
From a chemistry perspective, chemical reactions don't turn on like a switch at a particular temperature. That's because the molecules have a random distribution of energies, what we call the "temperature" is just an average. Some of the molecules will have enough energy to react, even if the temperature is fairly low.
What happens is that the reaction gets faster and faster as the temperature rises, exponentially, until you hit a point where it's running fast enough to be useful. But if you've got a lot of time on your hands, you can usually do the reaction slower at a little bit colder temperature.
This is complicated by the fact that honey has some compounds in it that can catalyze the caramelization reaction, make it run faster. And, some of the *products* of caramelization also catalyze the reaction! So even at a fixed temperature, the more caramelized the sugar gets, the faster it caramelizes.
In table sugar, this can result in you going from a nice complex caramel to a pot full of charcoal in a minute or so! You have to be ready to quench the caramel at a moment's notice.
Fortunately, honey has fructose in it, which caramelizes at 110C. Which means you barely have to get it above the boiling point to make it into caramel, and the reaction is much more controllable.
Edit: Of course, you have both glucose and fructose in honey, and the latter would be charcoal by the time you got the honey hot enough to caramelize the former. So only part of the honey can actually caramelize under normal circumstances. I wonder if this changes the flavor profile of the caramel relative to caramelizing sucrose, which is a disaccharide combining fructose and glucose in one molecule, and both get caramelized? Might be interesting to try caramelizing some isolated fructose and glucose.
I did mine in a slow cooker, which could barely get the honey hot enough to do anything, and it was only really caramelizing along the sides, where the heating elements were. Took about 5 hours to get where I wanted to be. (Testing flavor; It was dark honey to begin with, color would have been useless as a guide.) And, while I didn't take any temperatures, I did experimentally drop a bit of water in from time to time, and never got any steam explosions. In fact, when I got it where I wanted it, I quenched it by pouring in a thin stream of water while stirring vigorously, and had no problem with it. I did that because I didn't want the dehydrated honey to turn into rock by cooling too much before it was re-hydrated.
If that pot was above boiling, it sure wasn't much above it.
From a chemistry perspective, chemical reactions don't turn on like a switch at a particular temperature. That's because the molecules have a random distribution of energies, what we call the "temperature" is just an average. Some of the molecules will have enough energy to react, even if the temperature is fairly low.
What happens is that the reaction gets faster and faster as the temperature rises, exponentially, until you hit a point where it's running fast enough to be useful. But if you've got a lot of time on your hands, you can usually do the reaction slower at a little bit colder temperature.
This is complicated by the fact that honey has some compounds in it that can catalyze the caramelization reaction, make it run faster. And, some of the *products* of caramelization also catalyze the reaction! So even at a fixed temperature, the more caramelized the sugar gets, the faster it caramelizes.
In table sugar, this can result in you going from a nice complex caramel to a pot full of charcoal in a minute or so! You have to be ready to quench the caramel at a moment's notice.
Fortunately, honey has fructose in it, which caramelizes at 110C. Which means you barely have to get it above the boiling point to make it into caramel, and the reaction is much more controllable.
Edit: Of course, you have both glucose and fructose in honey, and the latter would be charcoal by the time you got the honey hot enough to caramelize the former. So only part of the honey can actually caramelize under normal circumstances. I wonder if this changes the flavor profile of the caramel relative to caramelizing sucrose, which is a disaccharide combining fructose and glucose in one molecule, and both get caramelized? Might be interesting to try caramelizing some isolated fructose and glucose.
I did mine in a slow cooker, which could barely get the honey hot enough to do anything, and it was only really caramelizing along the sides, where the heating elements were. Took about 5 hours to get where I wanted to be. (Testing flavor; It was dark honey to begin with, color would have been useless as a guide.) And, while I didn't take any temperatures, I did experimentally drop a bit of water in from time to time, and never got any steam explosions. In fact, when I got it where I wanted it, I quenched it by pouring in a thin stream of water while stirring vigorously, and had no problem with it. I did that because I didn't want the dehydrated honey to turn into rock by cooling too much before it was re-hydrated.
If that pot was above boiling, it sure wasn't much above it.
Last edited:
Blacksmith1
Captain Cheap
This I can relate to.
CKuhns
Everything learned in Kindergarten still applies!
Yep, every time I have done a bouchet. The toffee and burnt marshmallow smell sticks around in the house for a week or two. She "encourages" me to do the honey boiling (20Qt roaster 14 pounds honey) outdoors if winter or in the garage if the bees get too aggresive in the summer.
JP Smajda
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Please forgive the potential sacrilegious question. But since we are cooking the hell out of this honey, is there any reason not to use Bakers Honey? Its so much cheaper.
https://dutchgoldhoney.com/product/bakers-special-honey-60-lb-pail/
https://dutchgoldhoney.com/product/bakers-special-honey-60-lb-pail/
Seamonkey84
Well-Known Member
I’ve read Many people make that suggestion on this and other boards. They say it’s probably one of the only mead recipe they’d use it for, fine for beer too apparently.
CKuhns
Everything learned in Kindergarten still applies!
The way I understand it is that Bakers honey is typically the honey that is left over in the equipment after the heating, centrifuging and removal of wax etc. Its typically a much darker honey than more "traditional" honeys and is usually a blend of whatever is being run. Often has a slightly higher moisture content. The reason its labeled Baker Honey is it was / is often sold to Bakers for use in their recipes.
I treat it as another variety depending on what flavor profile i am looking. I like it for bochets with chiles or more traditional melomels paired with dark strong fruits like Boysenberries, currents or plums. I have done a few traditional meads that turned out very well but again the honey has its own unique flavor and often is not real consistent from batch to batch. Its relatively inexpensive, can be found in 5 gallon pails for about $100.
I treat it as another variety depending on what flavor profile i am looking. I like it for bochets with chiles or more traditional melomels paired with dark strong fruits like Boysenberries, currents or plums. I have done a few traditional meads that turned out very well but again the honey has its own unique flavor and often is not real consistent from batch to batch. Its relatively inexpensive, can be found in 5 gallon pails for about $100.
JP Smajda
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Hey Jim, I second everything CKuhns said. One thing that is consistent is that the honey itself tastes a lot more like the really cheap stuff you get in packets at a gas station or in a hotel. It does have a very strong "molasses" like flavor that comes through. It is best as a background flavor.
TonyBrewing
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Have some data from my weekend bochet experiment. Wish I had seen this thread before hand but I was thinking the same thing — that temperature should be what we measure.
I did a stovetop bochet process in a large, heavy bottom stockpot. I based this process on watching quite a few bochet videos and I feel like it went pretty well.
2.8 pounds of cheaper wildflower honey straight into the pot (cold). Put over medium-high heat at first until honey started simmering, then lowered to medium-low and continued to slowly lower the dial until the end (adjusting to keep the honey boiling at a rate that wouldn’t boil over). I stirred frequently and almost constantly once things starting getting darker.
There was considerable foaming, as expected. Stirring often created MORE foam up to a point, then would go back down. If foam hit the halfway mark I would remove from stove briefly and lower the heat.
Starting from first simmering bubbles giving elapsed time in minutes and temperature:
00 165°F
07 230°
19 240°
33 260°
47 275°
That was starting to get pretty dark and I liked what I was smelling so at that point so I turned off the heat. Once it seemed to have passed peak heat I started Very Slowly adding water and continued to stir. I started with a mere capful of water which was instantly vaporized and caused the honey foam to rise up a little bit (but not much). If you dump a lot of water in it will explode in a volcano-like manner so be extremely cautious.
I kept adding water little by little and increasing the amount until it had cooled enough to add in half my water taking it down to about 100°F, then I added 1/2 pound of buckwheat honey and 1/2 pound of Yaupon Holly honey and a bit more water (taking it down to 90° or so). I added water to about 1.2 gallons as I’m fermenting in a 2 gallon bucket and I aerated be
I then pitched a full packet of 5g ec-1118 rehydrated with GoFerm.
Gravity was 1.122 (hydrometer) / Brix (refractometer) ~27.
I will degas every day for a few days and try to add oxygen. Will be fermenting at 72°F but I might chill periodically if primary starts running too hard. I will also “step feed” more honey to try to push the fermentation to a higher ABV (18ish %) and I would like to finish on the sweeter side, but 1.122 is a pretty high gravity already. Expecting this to take 3 months before bottling and then 1-2 years (ugh).
I did a stovetop bochet process in a large, heavy bottom stockpot. I based this process on watching quite a few bochet videos and I feel like it went pretty well.
2.8 pounds of cheaper wildflower honey straight into the pot (cold). Put over medium-high heat at first until honey started simmering, then lowered to medium-low and continued to slowly lower the dial until the end (adjusting to keep the honey boiling at a rate that wouldn’t boil over). I stirred frequently and almost constantly once things starting getting darker.
There was considerable foaming, as expected. Stirring often created MORE foam up to a point, then would go back down. If foam hit the halfway mark I would remove from stove briefly and lower the heat.
Starting from first simmering bubbles giving elapsed time in minutes and temperature:
00 165°F
07 230°
19 240°
33 260°
47 275°
That was starting to get pretty dark and I liked what I was smelling so at that point so I turned off the heat. Once it seemed to have passed peak heat I started Very Slowly adding water and continued to stir. I started with a mere capful of water which was instantly vaporized and caused the honey foam to rise up a little bit (but not much). If you dump a lot of water in it will explode in a volcano-like manner so be extremely cautious.
I kept adding water little by little and increasing the amount until it had cooled enough to add in half my water taking it down to about 100°F, then I added 1/2 pound of buckwheat honey and 1/2 pound of Yaupon Holly honey and a bit more water (taking it down to 90° or so). I added water to about 1.2 gallons as I’m fermenting in a 2 gallon bucket and I aerated be
I then pitched a full packet of 5g ec-1118 rehydrated with GoFerm.
Gravity was 1.122 (hydrometer) / Brix (refractometer) ~27.
I will degas every day for a few days and try to add oxygen. Will be fermenting at 72°F but I might chill periodically if primary starts running too hard. I will also “step feed” more honey to try to push the fermentation to a higher ABV (18ish %) and I would like to finish on the sweeter side, but 1.122 is a pretty high gravity already. Expecting this to take 3 months before bottling and then 1-2 years (ugh).
@bernardsmith, how did this mead turn out?
Also, could you, please, detail your process of how you make the soft caramel in the microwave? Thinking it might make a fun addition to a mead later down the line. Thank you, in advance, if you do. I appreciate
