Blue beer: lets beat this dead horse

[TwistedGray]

@NinjaBear - My friends wanted to be able to do their own nitro cold brew at home, and they did not want to invest in a nitro set-up. They bought one of those whip cream canisters off Amazon, bought new tips for it, and they can now serve nitro at home. I wouldn't call it single serving, but it's close to it.

https://www.amazon.com/EurKitchen-Professional-Dispenser-Reinforced-Durability/dp/B017XZYC2Q
https://www.amazon.com/Creamright-Ultra-Purewhip-50-Pack-Whipped-Chargers/dp/B009OVU93E
Missing link for the tips, but I am sure you can find them.

While not the more practical approach (ie: single servings), you could test out the theory.

 

[NinjaBear]

I keep asking for those for Christmas

 

[Apimyces]

I’m sure some beer purists out there would crucify me for this…

I found that adding a wash of water plus corn sugar for a similar SG boiled with the same hop addition time/ratio as the original into the brew during secondary will lighten the color and make the end result a lot clearer.

It’s something I first started with wine and juice concentrate to increase the ABV.

Gave it a try with a beer and corn sugar (without the hops the first time) and got a beer that tasted almost exactly like Coors Lite.

But that took color very well when I used koolaid flavor liquids to turn them into wine coolers.

Tried it again with a honey Amber this time using extra honey and the same hops and got a very crisp, clear amber beer that didn’t lose the hop notes.

So I figured since the wine coolers took artificial color so well, it might be the key to finally getting a true natural blue ale.

The final step I plan is to make an extract of the blue flowers to hopefully be able to move the final result from the fermented 4.7 pH to the unfermented (and color I hope for) 5.8 ph.

After that, my biggest concern is the kegging. Since I don’t have a nitro system, I’ll need to keg in CO2. Which forms carbonic acid. So it’s possible that even if it goes in the perfect blue, it might come back out with those Magenta tones.

Pils LME is pretty light-colored as well. That's what I plan to use for my trial. http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_CBWPilsenLightLME.pdf

Perhaps with the addition of sucrose.

Might offend some purists, but, to me, those remain fairly "natural" ingredients. Corn syrup isn't all that far off from LME either, it's a grain-derived viscous sweet fluid. Not like you're adding artificial flavors or colors or anything that considerably deviates from the norm.

Not much to do about carbonic acid, other than to maintain low carbonation. I guess that could mean, though, that letting the drink sit could make it turn bluer, in the glass?

Gotta make sure the drink still tastes something, though, in the end. Don't wanna drink blue alcoholic water.

 

[NinjaBear]

Blue alcoholic water!

Love it.

I actually antagonized quite a bit over my choice for hops.

I initially wanted to use Mozaic Hops. Because I love the complex flavors it has. But then I thought the blue will immediately impart the idea of fruitiness. Prepping the mind/pallet to expect more of the fruity flavors that mozaic hops carry.

Then I thought of using Galaxy hops. Because in a lot of Si-Fi “blue ale” is used as a stand in for alcohol from alien cultures. Think Romulan Ale. (Actually there are several Star Trek aliens that have Ale that is varying shades of blue but I believe Romulan Ale is the most well known.) But for what ever reason, Galaxy hops are crazy expensive compared to others.

So in the end I decided to play it safe. I found a beer clone recipe for a commercial IPA that I liked that used used Centennial hops. I upped the bittering hops slightly but otherwise left it as is. (Just so I wasn’t left with a 1/2 oz really)

So that’s should add a nice hoppy nature to the “alien Ale” while I’m clearing it up to allow the blue to come through.

 

[Apimyces]

Personally, I think I'd be tempted to go with more herbal/tea/floral hops. Heck, clitoria tea is said to taste herbal, no? I was thinking to go with very little bitterness, only a dry hop addition.

 

[Apimyces]

Well, I started my own first test. Keeping it fairly simple for now, 6 gals, 2oz butterfly pea blossom, 6 pounds of pilsen LME, and WLP590 yeast (French Saison). I'm thinking of adding 100g of Boadicea whole leaf hop for a 7 day dry hop later on.

Color is fairly blue, though it's a little hard to see with the poor camera and lighting. Used my well water, which is fairly hard water, but I don't have a recent analysis of it.

 

[NinjaBear]

Used my well water, which is fairly hard water

Do you know the pH?

 

[day_trippr]

pH doesn't matter much. Alkalinity matters a lot...

Cheers!

 

[SEndorf]

pH doesn't matter much. Alkalinity matters a lot...

What he said...…
I see a lot of posts at HBT questioning starting water Ph, and is it OK.
It's simply not relevant to alkalinity and buffering capacity.

 

[Apimyces]

In either case, no, I don't recall the specifics, didn't bother to get a new test done yet. Might later. Did buy pH testing strips, but then realized the window is really narrow on them.

So far, it's still bubbling away. If the final result is interesting, once I'm there, I'll try and go for some lab results for repeatability.

 

[NinjaBear]

pH doesn't matter much. Alkalinity matters a lot...

Cheers!

pH matters a lot when trying for natural blue color because anything in nature that is naturally blue is also pH sensitive.

 

[day_trippr]

Perhaps, but the pH of brewing water has precious little bearing on the pH of the mash or the boil or the fermentor...

Cheers!

 

[NinjaBear]

Also alkalinity is just a pH above 7. So you basically said “pH doesn’t matter much. pH above 7 matters a lot.”

And since we’re not talking about efficiencies in mash or boil but achieving blue, having a water source naturally and significantly above 7 could have large impact on his outcome versus someone else following his same process with a less alkaline water source.

 

[day_trippr]

I would expect that rationale from someone who has never run a mash pH analysis.

My well runs around 300 TDS with epic alkalinity, yet the water has a nominal pH around 6.5.
Now, would you really think the pH is significant - at all?

Cheers!

 

[NinjaBear]

If your water has a nominal pH around 6.5 it’s not alkaline. It is acidic. [emoji849]

 

[NinjaBear]

Unless you are not referring to the water being alkaline solution but to the buffering capacity of the water, aka how much of additional acids are needed to lower pH further.

In which case, since when chasing a natural blue colors lower pH is bad, having a higher buffering capacity would also be significant.

 

[day_trippr]

If your water has a nominal pH around 6.5 it’s not alkaline. It is acidic. [emoji849]

You clearly have no idea how water works...

Cheers!

 

[NinjaBear]

All alkali are basic. Not all bases are alkali.

If you’re calling something under pH 7 alkaline. You’re using the word wrong.

I suspect you’re actually talking about the buffering capacity of your water due to presence of alkali compounds.

 

[Apimyces]

I think maybe he's saying the pH of the starting water doesn't matter, as if the buffering capacity is low then even a high pH water would turn acidic after the mash?

But I'm not sure.

In any case, I use a water softener, now, so I'd have to analyze what that yields. I know there's a lot of calcium in my well water otherwise. But, again, I won't bother with that until I taste the product.

Boadicea whole leaf hops are on the way, so I'll be dumping a bunch of that in the carboy when it arrives. SMaSH pils/Boadicea blue beer. Or as I call it, my Clitori'ale.

 

[czmkid]

Not blue but purple....local brewery in Austin making cosmic butterfly sour.

https://thirstyplanet.beer/

 

[Apimyces]

Not blue but purple....local brewery in Austin making cosmic butterfly sour.

https://thirstyplanet.beer/

Making purple beer is easy, though. Making something that ends up at about a neutral pH but that's still tasty? Seemingly, from what people report, there's the challenge.

on a different line of thought, it occurred to me that "carbonating" with nitrogen might help reach the target, as it'd avoid producing carbonic acid. That said, I have no experience with using nitrogen, and I'm not really familiar with nitrogen-foam beers.

 

[NinjaBear]

I think maybe he's saying the pH of the starting water doesn't matter, as if the buffering capacity is low then even a high pH water would turn acidic after the mash?

But I'm not sure.

Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. He’s heard a lot of buzz words that he throws around thinking it makes him sound like he knows what he’s talking about but often uses them wrong because he doesn’t actually understand what they mean.

 

[NinjaBear]

Not blue but purple....local brewery in Austin making cosmic butterfly sour.

https://thirstyplanet.beer/

Pretty label.

But unclear about what the beer it actually is.
(Totally possible it’s not loading right in the forum’s phone app)

But if it’s a sour and they are using natural pigments. Then it would be purple.

 

[Apimyces]

To be clear, though, purple can be cool too.

 

[WBCo]

On a different line of thought, it occurred to me that "carbonating" with nitrogen might help reach the target, as it'd avoid producing carbonic acid. That said, I have no experience with using nitrogen, and I'm not really familiar with nitrogen-foam beers.

Just a bit of info that might help on this line of thinking … "beer gas" which is the term they use for nitro blend is still usually 25-30% CO2, which may be low enough for what you are trying to accomplish, but wanted to throw that out there in case you weren't aware. The bottles also come with different threads and you need a different regulator than your typical CO2 regulator.

Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. He’s heard a lot of buzz words that he throws around thinking it makes him sound like he knows what he’s talking about but often uses them wrong because he doesn’t actually understand what they mean.

He was referring to residual alkalinity which has nothing to do with whether the water is acidic or alkaline. It refers to the buffering capacity of the water and how resistant it is to change in the pH. Water from two different sources can have the same starting pH, but if their residual alkalinity differs, then their response to pH change during the mash will be different as well. That is why the residual alkalinity is what needs to be focused on and the starting pH of the water is inconsequential.

 

[Apimyces]

Thanks for the details. I know just about nothing on nitrogen-gased beer.

 

[NinjaBear]

After putting in the wash to clear the beer further, the additional Fermentation has pushed the pH down further.

Still hoping I can use a base made from the flowers can raise it back up. But I’m getting concerned on the volume ratio I’ll need to do so and the impact it will have on the flavor.

 

[Apimyces]

Yea, I think mine's turning that color as well. Still pretty sweet.

 

[NinjaBear]

Using pure Calcium Carbonate (active ingredient in Tums antacid) suspended in water. I was able to use different concentrations to push my purple beer back to being closer to blue. (pH 5.8-5.9)

This one is 100 ml of beer to 75 ml of buffering solution diluted at 1/16t per 100ml of distilled water. I like the color, I like the clarity. I don’t like ratio needed.

This one is 100 ml of beer to 50 ml of buffering solution diluted at 1/8t per 100ml of distilled water. I like the color, but it’s cloudy. And still not a huge fan of the ratio.

This one is 100 ml of beer to 25 ml of buffering solution diluted at 1/4t per 100ml of distilled water. I like the color, I like the ratio… but it’s super cloudy. And at this concentration you get a chalky after taste.

I’m putting them in the fridge over night to cold crash. Hopefully it will drop excess calcium carbonate out of suspension and clear it up a bit better.

The goal for the final buffering solution will be 80 proof alcohol with calcium carbonate and blue flowers to blend with the beer to get the blue back (and add that kick that “romulan ale” is famous for).

 

[NinjaBear]

Also should note… depending on the angle of light… can’t really get away from seeing some purple.

 

[NinjaBear]

Wife convinced me to go big or go home.

Used my entire supply of unaged whiskey to make the buffering solution. Used a dilution between the 400 and 200.

Final product is in fact blue from every angle and light.

 

[Julian Høstan Urrea]

Wife convinced me to go big or go home.

Used my entire supply of unaged whiskey to make the buffering solution. Used a dilution between the 400 and 200.

Final product is in fact blue from every angle and light.

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Really cool. Been following this thread since the beginning. How does it taste?

 

[Apimyces]

Really cool. Been following this thread since the beginning. How does it taste?

Do we really want to know?

Also, here's my result. Well water + pilsen LME + Boadicea hops + clitoria. About 3.5% ABV. Not anywhere close to blue, haha!

I'm tempted to just make blue hop infused dilute vodka. XD 95% ABV alcohol, distilled water, hops, clitoria, dilute to 3.5-6.5% ABV or so.

 

[Apimyces]

I tried adding sodium bicarbonate to a small sample of this... after dumping a lot more sodium bicarbonate than there was liquid originally, I still only got green. Obviously, it tasted gross. Still, my wife likes the color of my Clitori'ale, so even if it's not blue, it's not an utter failure.

 

[Dan w]

What do you guys think about brewing with alkaline water to counteract the possibility of acidity changing the blue color from the pea flower? I also just made a second attempt at this endeavor and so far so good but I was worried about the acidity.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

pH is important for optimal activity of enzymes, and if you go over pH6 or so there's a risk of extracting astringent compounds in the grain, and it also affects the final taste of the beer, so it's kinda hard to go too alkaline without affecting flavour.

 

[Soulshine2]

As a Kentucky Wildcats fan this blue beer thing intrigues me.

A little tidbit from my friend the internet(eater.com); "Butterfly pea tea has an incredibly sensitive pH balance, meaning even the slightest shift in acidity can turn a beverage from deep blue, to a vibrant plum, to a fizzy magenta. The drink becomes a sippable chameleon: The more acid that comes in contact with the tea, the lighter in color it becomes. From pH 8 to pH 4, the tea is a regal shade of blue. It quickly shifts into deep purple terrain at pH 3, and finally bursts into carnation pink territory at pH 2."

mood ring beer???

 

[lump42]

It seems many are trying really hard to recreate the wheel. There are several food companies that are working on natural blue dyes that are more pH stable. A quick glance around the interwebs would lead me to suggest some of the spriulina extracts. McCormick's Color from Nature product has a blue packet that is based on spirulina and may be worth checking at what pH the color changes. It's only $6 on amazon.

This company from Japan claims to have a spirulina extract that is color stable to pH 4.6. It's not heat stable to our mash and boil temps so it would be better to add post boil.

 

[Apimyces]

What do you guys think about brewing with alkaline water to counteract the possibility of acidity changing the blue color from the pea flower? I also just made a second attempt at this endeavor and so far so good but I was worried about the acidity.

I don't think you can have water that's alkaline enough to offset the acidity of the fermentation to be had (unless being so alkaline even the yeast won't survive and thus won't ferment).

 

[Marktic]

My attempt...it is very much an iridescent beer more than either exactly blue or purple. Out of my tap it is pure blue coming out, but once the optical path is more than a couple inches, it is purple. It looks great in glassware that has varying widths.

I used 75g of the whole dried butterfly pea flowers steeped for 20 minutes in 1.5L of water at 80C...I then cooled that down and added it all to the fermenter for 4 days, along with tropical forward hops in a strainer bag. I tried to keep my water profile a little more on the alkaline side by adding calcium carbonate towards the end of the boil. I also used a yeast that tends to not finish too low on the pH scale and dry hopped heavy. The SRM was 4.3 before the flower addition.