Blonde ale = Kölsch ?

[mac_1103]

I don't have much to say on this topic. Maybe after I actually try to brew a Kolsch in the next month or two. But I just want to say how much I admire those of you who go to the trouble to use the umlauts.

 

[Mr. Vern]

Kolsch is still on my list, my wife is a fan of blonde ale so she took well to Kolsch while we visited Germany. Now I have to do a good job, no pressure!

A rose by any other name...

OT.. a couple weeks ago on Shakespeare's bday I texted my wife a bunch of "talk like Shakespeare day" flirts... it was a very good evening at home, but man it was getting tough to keep the game running past lunch. AI was implemented at one point, then AI used to call out each other. Recommended! (yes we get a little nerdy at times)

I admire those of you who go to the trouble to use the umlauts.

I replied to a customer rant maybe 15 years ago and my boss still has a print-out of my reply, complementing the irate customer on their use of the semicolon. Your comment made me laugh out loud in the office! (Much needed for the 4:30 lull).

 

[Saunassa]

I have never been to Koln and have no plans to. I have had very few examples of a “Kölsch”. There’s just something about that yeast character that I am fond of. It’s kind of mind blowing and intriguing to me how much yeast character drives any brew. It brings more love and interest for me in brewing and drinking delicious nectar of the gods.

It is why if possible I will make a larger batch and split into my smaller fermenters. Pitch two different yeasts and see which people prefer. Well me too

 

[Miraculix]

Dear non-Germans,

If you want to write an Umlaut, like ä ö or ü, but you simply cannot do it, it is fine to replace it with ae, oe or ue. It is not fine to replace it with an a o u.

It is not a Kolsch. It is a Kölsch. It might also be a Koelsch.

Sincerely
Se German

 

[day_trippr]

 

[mac_1103]

It is not a Kolsch. It is a Kölsch. It might also be a Koelsch.

How about Kerlsch?

 

[jdauria]

A Kolsch usually has a little hint of fruitiness from the yeast that a blonde ale doesn't. I recently brewed an American Blonde, with cascade, Simcoe and Citra but used Kolsch yeast, just because the pack of dry yeast was expiring. I enjoyed it, but judges in comps not as much. Only averaged 32.8 over 3 comps, but did manage to pull a gold (a gold with a score of 33 is rare these days) and a bronze. Judges were consistent on "not getting ale type esters" and "beer is almost too clean for style".

 

[worlddivides]

Dear non-Germans,

If you want to write an Umlaut, like ä ö or ü, but you simply cannot do it, it is fine to replace it with ae, oe or ue. It is not fine to replace it with an a o u.

It is not a Kolsch. It is a Kölsch. It might also be a Koelsch.

Sincerely
Se German

Except it IS a Kolsch. And it is fine to replace ä with a, ö with o, or ü with u. We're not talking about German here. We're talking about English. "Koelsch" is an incredibly uncommon spelling in English that I've only seen in some very very rare occasions and they usually look wrong. It'd be like me demanding that "It's not Tokyo, it's Tōkyō because they aren't short Os but long Os!" In Japanese, "Tokyo" and "Tōkyō" are pronounced completely different (with Tōkyō being how the city is pronounced and Tokyo with short Os being a word that does not exist), but likewise, most native English speakers are going to write "jalapeno" instead of "jalapeño" and "cafe" instead of "café." I applaud you if you write Kölsch, jalapeño, and café in English, but Kolsch, cafe, and jalapeno are correct spellings in English, even though they'd be wrong in the languages they're borrowed from.

So, it is a Kölsch. But it's also a Kolsch. I'd argue against the idea that it's a "Koelsch."

 

[lumpher]

How about a jalapeno kolsch down at the tokyo cafe?

 

[Shenanigans]

There is a jalapeno cream ale recipe on here that I brewed in 2016
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/jalapeno-cream-ale.131294/

As for Kolsch for some reason I've never really liked any I have tried.
That's not because I live in the Düsseldörf/Niederriehn area either.
Must be at least 10 years ago since I had one; might give one a go again sometime soon.

 

[mac_1103]

I'd argue against the idea that it's a "Koelsch."

That's because it's a Kœlsch.

 

[Bassman2003]

Except it IS a Kolsch. And it is fine to replace ä with a, ö with o, or ü with u. We're not talking about German here. We're talking about English. "Koelsch" is an incredibly uncommon spelling in English that I've only seen in some very very rare occasions and they usually look wrong. It'd be like me demanding that "It's not Tokyo, it's Tōkyō because they aren't short Os but long Os!" In Japanese, "Tokyo" and "Tōkyō" are pronounced completely different (with Tōkyō being how the city is pronounced and Tokyo with short Os being a word that does not exist), but likewise, most native English speakers are going to write "jalapeno" instead of "jalapeño" and "cafe" instead of "café." I applaud you if you write Kölsch, jalapeño, and café in English, but Kolsch, cafe, and jalapeno are correct spellings in English, even though they'd be wrong in the languages they're borrowed from.

So, it is a Kölsch. But it's also a Kolsch. I'd argue against the idea that it's a "Koelsch."

As a counterpoint, it is respectful for other languages (English) to try to correctly represent the original language's pronunciation. Koelsch accomplishes that even if it is "not English". We can't remember all of the alt-text numbers but we can add a letter to be correct in the original language. And I have seen Koelsch written before, so it is not unheard of.

Of course everybody can do what they want to but to say it IS when that is just a convenient adaptation is kind of a stretch for me. I will be using Koelsch from now on since a native German speaker brought it to our attention.

 

[lumpher]

There is a jalapeno cream ale recipe on here that I brewed in 2016
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/jalapeno-cream-ale.131294/

I brewed that Jalapeno Cream Ale a few years ago, also. I love jalapenos. I even grow them in my garden (easy to grow here in Texas). But that's when I decided jalapenos don't belong in beer. The thought of a Jalapeno Kolsch (or Jalapeño Kölsch if you prefer)... nope.

 

[Miraculix]

Except it IS a Kolsch. And it is fine to replace ä with a, ö with o, or ü with u. We're not talking about German here. We're talking about English. "Koelsch" is an incredibly uncommon spelling in English that I've only seen in some very very rare occasions and they usually look wrong. It'd be like me demanding that "It's not Tokyo, it's Tōkyō because they aren't short Os but long Os!" In Japanese, "Tokyo" and "Tōkyō" are pronounced completely different (with Tōkyō being how the city is pronounced and Tokyo with short Os being a word that does not exist), but likewise, most native English speakers are going to write "jalapeno" instead of "jalapeño" and "cafe" instead of "café." I applaud you if you write Kölsch, jalapeño, and café in English, but Kolsch, cafe, and jalapeno are correct spellings in English, even though they'd be wrong in the languages they're borrowed from.

So, it is a Kölsch. But it's also a Kolsch. I'd argue against the idea that it's a "Koelsch."

Except for the fact that Kölsch is not an English word, but a German one. The fact that you do not seem to see a lot of oe or ae or ue in American English does not shine a nice light on the average American literacy as oe ue and ae are the official rerplacements for Umlaute.

If you want to americanize it, go for it and call it a Cologny or similar, but do not pretend to know better how German words are to be written than se Germans.

 

[lumpher]

does not shine a nice light on the average American literacy

worlddivides
Location Tokyo


This thread looks like it's completely ran it's course now. It's getting personal, and there's no need for that.

 

[Miraculix]

worlddivides
Location Tokyo


This thread looks like it's completely ran it's course now. It's getting personal, and there's no need for that.

I do not see anything personal here.

 

[day_trippr]

We like to have fun here!

 

[Rich1234]

I'm almost afraid to post, but here goes... The aformentioned beer style in this thread is one I brew all the time. I'm with the posters that have given positive reviews for Omega Kolsch II. Great stuff. Took it (3gals) to a party last summer and it didn't last long.

Bunch of crazy alcoholics (re: coworkers) there... lol

 

[Bassman2003]

Why would you be afraid to post?

 

[Bramling Cross]

I'm almost afraid to post, but here goes... The aformentioned beer style in this thread is one I brew all the time. I'm with the posters that have given positive reviews for Omega Kolsch II. Great stuff. Took it (3gals) to a party last summer and it didn't last long.

Bunch of crazy alcoholics (re: coworkers) there... lol

I agree about Omega's KoΣlch II yeast, it's spectacular.

Please, don't be afraid to post here! They let me post here, so the bar really is quite low. They're even nice to me, if you can imagine such a thing. You have nothing to worry about and everything to gain!

Looking forward to hearing more from you and hoping you'll join us in the What Are You Drinking Now? thread, it's a great place to dip your toe in.

 

[mac_1103]

Why would you be afraid to post?

I assumed it was because some people have very strong feelings about various Kœlsch yeasts.

 

[worlddivides]

Except for the fact that Kölsch is not an English word, but a German one. The fact that you do not seem to see a lot of oe or ae or ue in American English does not shine a nice light on the average American literacy as oe ue and ae are the official rerplacements for Umlaute.

If you want to americanize it, go for it and call it a Cologny or similar, but do not pretend to know better how German words are to be written than se Germans.

I don't see how English being a living language has anything to do with "the average American literacy." Also, weird that you've singled out Americans and not Canadians or English or Scots or Irish or Australians when "Kolsch" is the next most common spelling after "Kölsch" in English overall. What, do the Australians and Canadians tend to use ö more than Americans?

I would never claim that Kölsch is an incorrect spelling in English, but I'm a linguist, and I've never been a fan of prescriptivism. Just like jalapeno and cafe are English words now, Kolsch is also an English word now. And why can't we use "Kolsch" but instead need to come up with some other word for it derived from the traditional English name for the city? You could push for calling it "Colognian beer" in English, but I seriously doubt that'd catch on.

 

[Rich1234]

Sorry.. My attempt at humor didn't cross the internet well.. Yeah, I was joking about the kolsch debate. I'm not actually afraid to post.

 

[day_trippr]

coalsh

 

[worlddivides]

coalsh

In Japanese, it's pronounced Kerushu.

 

[Miraculix]

I don't see how English being a living language has anything to do with "the average American literacy." Also, weird that you've singled out Americans and not Canadians or English or Scots or Irish or Australians when "Kolsch" is the next most common spelling after "Kölsch" in English overall. What, do the Australians and Canadians tend to use ö more than Americans?

I would never claim that Kölsch is an incorrect spelling in English, but I'm a linguist, and I've never been a fan of prescriptivism. Just like jalapeno and cafe are English words now, Kolsch is also an English word now. And why can't we use "Kolsch" but instead need to come up with some other word for it derived from the traditional English name for the city? You could push for calling it "Colognian beer" in English, but I seriously doubt that'd catch on.

Nope mate sorry, not going down that route.

 

[An Ankoù]

Except it IS a Kolsch. And it is fine to replace ä with a, ö with o, or ü with u. We're not talking about German here. We're talking about English. "Koelsch" is an incredibly uncommon spelling in English that I've only seen in some very very rare occasions and they usually look wrong. It'd be like me demanding that "It's not Tokyo, it's Tōkyō because they aren't short Os but long Os!" In Japanese, "Tokyo" and "Tōkyō" are pronounced completely different (with Tōkyō being how the city is pronounced and Tokyo with short Os being a word that does not exist), but likewise, most native English speakers are going to write "jalapeno" instead of "jalapeño" and "cafe" instead of "café." I applaud you if you write Kölsch, jalapeño, and café in English, but Kolsch, cafe, and jalapeno are correct spellings in English, even though they'd be wrong in the languages they're borrowed from.

So, it is a Kölsch. But it's also a Kolsch. I'd argue against the idea that it's a "Koelsch."

Can't disagree with the logic of the main paragraph, but have to take issue with the final comment, where koelsch is an attempt to render a closer pronunciation in English, which doesn't have ö, or ø for that matter, as part of its character set. As for rendering German ä and ë as ae and oe, while this may be uncommon in American English, it is the norm in the UK. I've never seen them rendered as æ or œ.
Let's not underestimate the role of technology: when typewriters were used, accents and diacriticals were a feature of the key set of country where they were used. Today, I can access any character in just about any language on my phone - even the elder fuþark •ᚠᚢᚦᚨᚱᚲ•if I want to. And so we shouldn't be surprised that café, jalapeño etc are increasingly being rendered as they are in their native languages.

 

[corkybstewart]

Leffe is a Blonde Ale, Kolsch is a lager fermented with a top fermenting German yeast. It is lagered just like a German Lager.

In France the term blonde is used for the brewery's pale beer. French blonde beers have nothing in common with Kolsch other than the pale color.

 

[An Ankoù]

In France the term blonde is used for the brewery's pale beer. French blonde beers have nothing in common with Kolsch other than the pale color.

Spot on.

 

[corkybstewart]

Kolsch is still on my list, my wife is a fan of blonde ale so she took well to Kolsch while we visited Germany. Now I have to do a good job, no pressure!

I used to brew a Kolsch style beer, we called it Happy Wife Beer. I need to brew that again this fall.