BLING BLING Electric HERMS Conversion

[bmarley5780]

How many wires to power your PID?

 

[jkarp]

I think the temp of boiling wort will be pretty homogenous.

I've got a fairly accurate digital with a LONG probe. Moving it around the kettle it's easy to find 10+ degree variances. Sorry if you previously mentioned - whats the need for temperature monitoring in the kettle again?

 

[The Pol]

ONE hot and ONE neutral power the PID.

I find it hard to believe that in a boiling kettle of wort that there are variances of 10F... but, maybe? Not that it really matters in a boil kettle anyway, the PID will not be maintaining a temp, it will be in MANUAL mode controlling % power to the element.

The purpose of a thermocouple in the kettle? Well, the PID wont operate without a signal from the thermocouple #1. #2 it will be nice to monitor the temp of the COOLING wort as the immersion chiller does its thing.

 

[slimer]

Hey Pol,

If I order the parts, can you help me assemble them next time I'm in Indy. Looks like February right now.

 

[The Pol]

I've got a fairly accurate digital with a LONG probe. Moving it around the kettle it's easy to find 10+ degree variances. Sorry if you previously mentioned - whats the need for temperature monitoring in the kettle again?

I dont see why not... assuming of course that I do not kill myself doing this in the coming days!

I will probably have this project complete by this evening... wife and kids are away and I have plenty of time to play!

 

[jkarp]

The purpose of a thermocouple in the kettle? Well, the PID wont operate without a signal from the thermocouple #1. #2 it will be nice to monitor the temp of the COOLING wort as the immersion chiller does its thing.

Ahh, monitoring cooling would be nice.

One way to really exaggerate the temperature differences in the kettle is to whirlpool it. Wort along the sides will cool rapidly while the boil goes wild in the center. It's surprising how much heat really gets lost through the kettle sides.

I'm building a small-scale electric kettle myself for indoor brewing. 5 gallon, insulated, with a 2KW 120V element. No PID though - built a simple PWM circuit to drive the SSR.

 

[Stile]

I dont see why not... assuming of course that I do not kill myself doing this in the coming days! !

I was wondering about this... you might want to post something daily so we know you're.....uhm.... still here

 

[The Pol]

My wife is calling me every 20 minutes or so... because IF I do kill myself, no one will be here to call 911. I thought about that already... soooo, I will keep posting as I piece this thing together today, thanks for looking out for me Stile!

Pol

 

[slimer]

Make sure you don't give yourself the shocker.

 

[caskconditioned]

... I am heading out to buy a hot knife to make the precise cuts in my control box housing for switches and outlets.

I used a dremmel (sp?) to cut my control box. Worked really well but a hot knife should work too.

 

[The Pol]

I am home now with all the final components... looks like I will have a fun afternoon!!
I will have pics and instructions up in about a week... I got called out tomorrow, the 25th, so I will be finishing up work tonight on this thing and getting my pics and instructions posted when I return home in a week or so!

Step #1. Drill 1.25" hole in side of keggle (completed)
Step #2. Wire and pot electrical connections on 5500W RIPP water heater element (completed)
Step #3. Cut 2" dia. hole for "dryer" outlet in back of control box (completed)
Step #4. Cut 2 120VAC receptacle holes (completed)
Step #5. Cut PID, SSR and SWITCH holes (completed)
Step #6. Install PID and SWITCHES in face plate (completed)
Step #7. Install Distribution block and ground bar (completed)
Step #8. Prewire outlets (120VAC), switches (120VAC), PID and SSR. (completed)
Step #9. Attach all grounds to ground bar. (to do)
Step #10. Wire 30A DPST switch (to do)
FINISHED!!!!!

 

[Stile]

Uhm... last edit was 3:43pm good sir.

And i sooooo want a pic of step #6

 

[The Pol]

I would suggest that anyone else doing this build when I am finished, buys a 12x12x6 junction box. The 8x8x4 is large enough, but it is extremely tight and requires some very dextrous fingers!

I have the PID wired, the two 120VAC switches and associated outlets wired. I have the heatsink attached to the box, the SSR wired...

Still to do... run all of my grounds (need smaller wire!!!)
Wire in my DPST 30A switch for the (2) hots to the element.
THAT IS IT!!!!

Will finish and get pics, instructions etc. up after the holiday.

THERE IS A LOT of work involved in getting this box together, would be easier with more room to work with! BUT, it is super sexxy in this small box! Tested all of my connections, switches and outlets, everything is running properly... powered up the PID as well!

 

[The Pol]

Some pics

To build the element you will need:
5500W RIPP element
JB Stik
JB Weld
1" NON conductive PVC slip coupling
6' 10/3 dryer cord
(2) wire end terminals
Wire cutters
Philips screw driver

#1. Separate the three wires so that they are not attched approximately 2" from the terminal ends. (this will allow you to separate the ground wire and attach it to the keg if you place your thermowell in the same position that I placed mine)
#2. Cut approx. 1.5" from the end of the two HOT wires, yes this will remove the factory terminals.(this will allow the ground wire to reach the side of the keg with the element installed)
#3. Attach (2) new terminal ends to the two HOT wires on the cord.
#4. Slide the PVC coupler over the end of the cord
#5. Attach the two HOT wires to the element. Be sure to leave GROUND wire OUTSIDE of the coupler, this will attach to the keg.
#6. Knead a small ammount of JB Stik and roll it into a thin rope. Wrap the epoxy putty around the base of the element, where the PVC coupler will be seated. Press PVC coupling into place. Let set for 20 minutes.
#7. Mix two full tubes of JB Weld epoxy well and pour it into the void where the electrical connections lie. This will fill the void sufficiently to pot the connections and wires.
#8 Hang the element from the cord for 24 hours to allow proper curing of the epoxy.

The holes are start points for the jigsaw to cut out the face where the switches will be installed. The OUTER rectangle is the outline of the switch plate, the INNER rectangle is the opening that was cut to facilitate installation of the switches (3) of them. The "cross hairs" are the switch positions for reference after the hole is cut.

 

[The Pol]

This is the back of the box. I took great care to lay out the position of all internal components before cutting so that I was assured to have enough space in the box. It is packed pretty full being only 8x8x4!

The circular hole is 2" dia. from a hole saw and facilitates mounting of the dryer outlet perfectly.

The square hole in the upper right corner is for the SSR. The heatsink is attached to the back of the control box (air flow, lack of space for it anywhere else!) The SSR will pass through the back of the box and screw to the heat sink through this hole.

The (2) rectangular holes in the lower left are for the (2) 120VAC outlets.

The face of the box is sealed, I am also going to run a nice bead of caulk around the outlets and the heat sink on the back. It will make for a cleaner look (no jigsawed edges) and help to keep things out of the box.

 

[drez77]

HEY, thanks MIKE! I am guessing at the percentages since I have never used a PID for a BK. I generally get about 1.4 gallons of boil off when using a propane burner, thanks for giving me a starting point for the first brew!

Are you using a 5500W element as well for the boil? Are you also brewing 5 gallon batches?
.

I am using a 4500W element and I have done both 5 G and 10G batches. I plan to insulate my BK soon though to help with the heating. Takes a bit longer to heat up when the garage is 30* ...lol.

edit: Now that I have finished reading the last 2 pages. Looking real nice! Keep up the good work.

Mike

 

[The Pol]

Thanks!

I will get home in a few days and finish wiring my 240VAC outlet and switch, and get a few remaining grounds connected. Then it will be finished and I can do a couple "wet" runs in the garage to play with it.

I did check all of my connections with a voltmeter and tested my outlets and so far, so good!

I should be able to get all of my instructions and pics posted by January 1st... then this build and thread will be complete.

There is A LOT of work going into documenting this build, between parts, costs, construction tricks, pictures etc... I hope that in the end it will help some of you build something like this. Thanks for all of your support!

Pol

BTW, New Orleans is 80F!!!

 

[N5629]

Pol - Thanks for being such a documentarian on this build, it is actually clarifying most of what I have wanted to do and not known exactly how.

When you use a voltometer/mm - it is to check for shorts, current where it shouldn't be, and that you have the right amount of current where you want it right? It'd be good to know by what method you are doing this so I can apply the same to my build in a couple months.

 

[The Pol]

UPDATED THE OP!!!! (see bold print)

I used the "multimeter" to confirm that I have made the correct connections (switches controlling the outlets), I have the correct voltage, and that I do NOT have voltage where I do not want it. It makes me fee better switching it ON after I screw the face plate on and start playing with water

FYI, when wiring THIS box (8x8x4) you need to use 12awg wire where possible, only use the 10awg where needed.(ie. the 240VAC switch and outlet) The box is tight, this wire is rigid, do yourself a favor!

 

[bakins]

FYI, when wiring THIS box (8x8x4) you need to use 12awg wire where possible, only use the 10awg where needed.(ie. the 240VAC switch and outlet) The box is tight, this wire is rigid, do yourself a favor!

You're using stranded wire, right? In such a tight space, even stranded will be stiff. My "control box" is part of the sculpture and is about 18x18x12, so I had a bit more room. I have seen other examples, where all the 120V stuff is in one box with DC lines ran to all the 240V stuff in another box, I suppose that would make things somewhat easier.

 

[Hokus]

Pol,

Again Thanks for doing this post. I had been 80% sure on how to do this set up and this will help a lot. I am only doing an electric boil kettle for now, but myself and 2 friends just started doing all grain, so Im sure the hlt will be soon.

Cant wait to see your finish build.

 

[slnies]

I would suggest that anyone else doing this build when I am finished, buys a 12x12x6 junction box. The 8x8x4 is large enough, but it is extremely tight and requires some very dextrous fingers!

+ 1 for the Pol. This is great advice. I, myself like to use two boxes, one for the controls, like the PID and switches, and the other to house the SSR's and connects for the equipment.

Another note: For the control wiring, wiring that is not to power elements and pumps, can be sized at #16 AGW or #14 AGW as this part of the system does not carry, but a few amps at most. This will make some of the control wiring easier. The wire for the elements and pumps should still be sized for there respective loads. S.

 

[Spine]

+1 from me as well!

You have inspired me to order a 40A SSR from e-bay last night (with included heatsink) for $19 that I am planning to control from an old PLC i had laying around. (I will program my own logic to do the PWM of the heater element).

Just need to scrape up the cash for the 30A 240V GFCI!

Thanks!

 

[The Pol]

+1 from me as well!

You have inspired me to order a 40A SSR from e-bay last night (with included heatsink) for $19 that I am planning to control from an old PLC i had laying around. (I will program my own logic to do the PWM of the heater element).

Just need to scrape up the cash for the 30A 240V GFCI!

Thanks!

You may want to double check that SSR... is it DC or AC? I have seen many DC SSRs on EBAY with heat sinks.

 

[The Pol]

You're using stranded wire, right? In such a tight space, even stranded will be stiff. My "control box" is part of the sculpture and is about 18x18x12, so I had a bit more room. I have seen other examples, where all the 120V stuff is in one box with DC lines ran to all the 240V stuff in another box, I suppose that would make things somewhat easier.

Yes, this is all stranded THHN insulated wire. It would be impossible to wire this size of a box with solid core wire, impossible. Even with strnaded wire it is taking a lot of patience and work to get it all to fit. But, it will, and the box is so small, but does so much!

 

[Spine]

You may want to double check that SSR... is it DC or AC? I have seen many DC SSRs on EBAY with heat sinks.

Thanks for the heads up. It is an AC ssr, but with a DC control voltage, which is what I need for my PLC!

Thanks

 

[The Pol]

Sweet, just wanted to make sure... someone sent me a link to an SSR on Ebay that was a DC SSR... didnt want you getting the incorrect component

 

[The Pol]

I am finishing up the wiring of the control panel tomorrow (12-29-08). At that time I will begin dumping pics on here, update my final parts list on the OP and add as many instructions as I can.

Of course, your inquiries will be needed, I cannot imagine all the questions that will need to be answered, since this is my baby and I have been dreaming it up for a couple months. Much of it seems intuitive to me, but it is all based on my intuition....

Thanks for the continued inquiries and support HBTers!

 

[bakins]

In case you care, I use 2 techniques when actually using my electric BK. Since you have same PID you can probably do the same:

When I am going to be around to watch BK closely, I set it to manual mode 100%. Since I batch sparge, I do this at first run-off. Usually I'm about to a boil when the second sparge is done (I generally use 2 equal sparges).

If I'm not going to be watching closely (I'm always in the basement, but I may be tending to kids, racking something, eating, etc.) I set it to Auto around 200 degrees. I do this after first run off. I can then do whatever I need to do, and come back to the BK. It's usually holding steady at 200, then I'll flip to manual 100%. Only takes a few minutes to get boiling. This is what I really like about electric, I don't have to watch it like a hawk every second. (Disclaimer: pay attention, don't follow my example, etc.)

I can usually then turn the PID to manual 60% or so to maintain my boil in my insulated BK. It has a single layer of Reflectix on in. I probably need to add one more layer, as it's pretty warm to the touch when boiling - I may could cut it down to 50% or so. When I recirculated through my plate chiller to sanitize it, I bump it up to 75% to overcome the slight heat loss for about 5 minutes, then turn it back down to 60%.

Electric brewing rules! It took me about a year of piecing together info before I built mine, but I can't imagine it any other way. I'm sure you will enjoy it.

Slightly off topic, but for various reasons, I think I have decided to go RIMS in my setup. It will probably be my b-day present and I'll be sure to post info when I do it.

Enjoy!

 

[kal]

In case you care, I use 2 techniques when actually using my electric BK. Since you have same PID you can probably do the same:

When I am going to be around to watch BK closely, I set it to manual mode 100%. Since I batch sparge, I do this at first run-off. Usually I'm about to a boil when the second sparge is done (I generally use 2 equal sparges).

If I'm not going to be watching closely (I'm always in the basement, but I may be tending to kids, racking something, eating, etc.) I set it to Auto around 200 degrees. I do this after first run off. I can then do whatever I need to do, and come back to the BK. It's usually holding steady at 200, then I'll flip to manual 100%. Only takes a few minutes to get boiling. This is what I really like about electric, I don't have to watch it like a hawk every second. (Disclaimer: pay attention, don't follow my example, etc.)

I can usually then turn the PID to manual 60% or so to maintain my boil in my insulated BK. It has a single layer of Reflectix on in. I probably need to add one more layer, as it's pretty warm to the touch when boiling - I may could cut it down to 50% or so. When I recirculated through my plate chiller to sanitize it, I bump it up to 75% to overcome the slight heat loss for about 5 minutes, then turn it back down to 60%.

Electric brewing rules! It took me about a year of piecing together info before I built mine, but I can't imagine it any other way. I'm sure you will enjoy it.

All good information. Thanks for sharing. These are some of the reasons I'm going electric as well.

Some other food for thought for people looking at going electric:

It seems most guys around my neck of the woods use two 3000W/240V elements in their BK without any PID or controller of any sort. They are directly wired to power with simply a couple of cheap light switches to turn them on/off independently.

Both are on initially (6000W total) to get up to boil, and then one is turned off for 3000W to maintain the boil. Seems to work perfectly for 5-15 gallon batches I'm told.

One of the nice features is that a 3000W/240V element only draws 12.5A so you can use standard wiring/plugs/etc for some of the setup. You'll still need 30A coming in from the panel of course.

I still think a single 5500-6000W ULWD element with PID/SSR gives you more control and I plan on going that way. Just food for though for others.

Kal