BLING BLING Electric HERMS Conversion

[CodeRage]

Jason; i've been told the stainless version goes for $145, not a clue on the plastic ones that are rated to176*F.
My only question would be foam causing a false trigger or lack of.

I dont think it would affect.

IIRC they work using refraction and reflection and though foam and bubbles would alter the refractive index it wouldn't be much. Once the lens is fully submerged the refractive index will change greatly, possibly changing the light reflected within the lens.

If you can get an analog signal out of these things it might be possible to measure SG. Thats another topic though.

 

[MrH]

Those toilet flushing units look like they belong in a 1900's oak WC not a brewery.

Aww, c'mon Brew, these aren't that bad . They're simple and do work, and they're cheep. I can replace mine 11 times for the price of one of the optical ones. I did say that I'd be careful before using one in a BK because of the teensy tiny hinge they use (easy to gum up with sticky wort), and I don't know that I will use one when I convert my BK to electric this fall, but I also don't know that I could justify $150 for an optical sensor unless I wanted to go full auto. As long as I homebrew I will never go full auto. Brewing is as much art as it is science, and I just can't fathom taking a complete hands-off approach. Sorry for the ramble, but I'm really enjoying the Stone sampler pack from Costco tonight . Funny that I move away from SD right before it becomes one of the biggest brewing meccas in the country :sigh:

MrH

 

[jkarp]

Just took a quick glance over at Digikey and there's several solid-state sensors in the $40-60 range. I may have to dabble this spring...

 

[BrewBeemer]

Aww, c'mon Brew, these aren't that bad . They're simple and do work, and they're cheep. I can replace mine 11 times for the price of one of the optical ones. I did say that I'd be careful before using one in a BK because of the teensy tiny hinge they use (easy to gum up with sticky wort), and I don't know that I will use one when I convert my BK to electric this fall, but I also don't know that I could justify $150 for an optical sensor unless I wanted to go full auto. As long as I homebrew I will never go full auto. Brewing is as much art as it is science, and I just can't fathom taking a complete hands-off approach. Sorry for the ramble, but I'm really enjoying the Stone sampler pack from Costco tonight . Funny that I move away from SD right before it becomes one of the biggest brewing meccas in the country :sigh:

MrH

Those plastic Honeywell sensors must be way cheaper than those stainless ones, I never priced them out and a cheap possible way to go with the 176*F max operating temp they have. Perfect for protecting the element in the HLT as well the liquid level in the MLT while sparging for your pump control. JMO vs anything mechanical to prevent any possible sticking float problems or possible big flooding or burnt element during your brewing session. Different flavors for different people, pick what works best for your system.

 

[Cliff897]

Like The Pol said: Some can be bent. You just need to be careful. I had a camco high density 3500w element that I tried to bend and it shattered. There was ceramic inside the element and it just snapped.

The Pol and some other people have gotten other styles to bend with no problems. I bent my 5500w ULD element from Plumbing warehouse a bit with no issue. They are pretty cheap if you break one.

The delta is in the packing. Most industrial process heaters are thousand dollar multi-element stack units with mica. They can take a beating and a bending and keep on working. Ceramic is the cheap household stove top method. It's been around for ages and is a reliable technology in a stove top. So it's what you find on the cheaper units. The pricey ones that are intended to be "process" heaters are used in industrial settings where things really do go bump, they are are mica packed to withstand the beating.


Which one delivers the better efficiency? I sort of bet the ceramic packed ones do. But, you can't futz with them.

But there's a wrinkle in the "can you bend it?" issue.
Some ceramic packed elements have straight elements and others have spiral elements. Theoretically spiral elements may tolerate bending even in a ceramic pack because you are just sort of straightening out the spiral a tad while cracking the ceramic into powder. Which of course should shorten the life of the element because they don't have particularly good hysteresis. Or stated another way, they have a poor modulus of elasticity.


So which ones can you bend for sure ?
Industrial process heaters.

Which ones can you not bend?
The ones that break when you do.
You'll only know after you break it.

Water heater elements are not supposed to be in an industrial process environment where things get dropped and churned around.
They are supposed to be in a water heater.

 

[klyph]

Are the ULWD elements more likely to bend without breaking than the HWD elements?

 

[BrewBeemer]

No! At least the wavy 5.5KW camco I had that needed just 1 1/2" taken out of the 4" wave to screw into a tight place. It went poof within 5 seconds so I bend another with half the amount of straightening then fought the install, it went poof an hour later. My minds set on their 5.5KW straight folded back high mineral water ULWD elements. I was thinking wavy would spread the heat out but then i'm using ULWD not the higher density units so who cares in my application? Indirect heating.

 

[Brewmoor]

Some ceramic packed elements have straight elements and others have spiral elements. Theoretically spiral elements may tolerate bending even in a ceramic pack because you are just sort of straightening out the spiral a tad while cracking the ceramic into powder. Which of course should shorten the life of the element because they don't have particularly good hysteresis. Or stated another way, they have a poor modulus of elasticity.

The camco element that I snapped had a spiral element in it. I think the reason it snapped was because the metal tubing surrounding the element was too rigid. The one I have now seems to have a more resilient tubing. Though I am sure it too has the ceramic and spiral element. So I do not plan on bending it too far.

 

[The Pol]

I have bent the Camco 02583 LWD elements, I know those will bend to a degree. How far? Dunno. Id look for an actual design solution before I relegated myself to manipulating the elements to a large degree.

Been real.

Peace out.

 

[egurney]

Yes, IMHO it is always nice to have the element require as little water as possible so that you do not need to have a large water contingency in the HLT to submerge it.

Is there any reason I couldn't mount the element horizontally instead of vertically?
Like this. http://home.swbell.net/bufkin/mill_&_hlt.htm
There doesn't seem to be any higher wattage 240 elements that are short. 10" seems to be the minimum for a 5500W, but that would really be pushing my 30A circuit once I add other components.
I'm thinking I could get a 12" element into the cooler horizontally giving me many more options.

Opinions?

 

[willynilly]

What is the diameter of your cooler? Beverage? 10 gallon? 12" is the diameter of most, youd be pushing it.

 

[egurney]

Rubbermaid 10G, ID just shy of 13".

 

[bsmoov]

Hey Pol,
This is probobly a dumb question but I've asked worse. Does each Element need its own PID or can one PID control multiple elements?

Thanks

 

[Hermit]

Hey Pol,
This is probobly a dumb question but I've asked worse. Does each Element need its own PID or can one PID control multiple elements?

Thanks

Only dumb in as much as I doubt he will answer. The PID activates a relay so it is the relay that determines the load.

 

[jkarp]

Hey Pol,
This is probobly a dumb question but I've asked worse. Does each Element need its own PID or can one PID control multiple elements?

Thanks

I believe Pol has left us, but yes, you can drive multiple SSRs off a single PID.

 

[jkarp]

Only dumb in as much as I doubt he will answer. The PID activates a relay so it is the relay that determines the load.

SSRs are more commonly used than relays for driving heating elements.

 

[willynilly]

SSRs are relays

 

[jkarp]

SSRs are relays

Well, SSRs are solid state. They are wired very differently to a PID. PIDs can usually source about 40mA and an SSR sinks about 10mA. So, a PID should be able to drive 3 SSRs pretty easily.

 

[bsmoov]

Thanks Guys,
So if I understand correctly one PID can operate at least to SSR hooked up to two elements independently.

 

[CodeRage]

Thanks Guys,
So if I understand correctly one PID can operate at least to SSR hooked up to two elements independently.

Yes, you can run quite a few actually. You just need to be able to drive the led in the 'coil' of the SSR which takes minimal current. Just wire all of the SSRs that should turn on together + to + and - to -, with one attached the the PID output.

 

[Emoneyblue]

Question did we ever get that wiring diagram posted on the control box?

 

[dutch-brew]

What is the lowest you can/should install the heating element? I would like to leave as much space as possible for my IC.

I know Pol said in one of these post he put it at the 2 1/2 gal mark, but can you go lower, or will it hurt efficiency of the heating? My guess would be he put it right in the middle of the wort that way, since he did 5 gal batches with this.

Where does everyone else put it? I was thinking of putting it right where the side of the keggle starts to straighten out.

 

[kal]

I put mine as low as possible without interfering with my Hopstopper:

More pics/info: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/node/9

Kal

 

[dutch-brew]

More pics/info: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/node/9

Kal

Thanks for the reply Kal.. Hopefully i will have all my components this week to make my e-keggle.

That's a good looking site you are setting up about electric brewing! Great pics and well documented. Looking forward to seeing the rest of the build put up on there.

On a side note, another question i have is how most people clean their e-keggles. Just unhook everything, take outside and wash out?
I know Pol said something about he just washes with oxyclean, thoguh i am confused then how he'd get the spent hops and break-material and everything out.
I am putting connectors on all my wires so i can take them apart and clean/rinse outside. Hopefully no problem that way knocking the element around.

 

[Memorex88]

Thanks Kal. What a great link with all the step by step pictures!

 

[BrewBeemer]

What is the lowest you can/should install the heating element? I would like to leave as much space as possible for my IC.

I know Pol said in one of these post he put it at the 2 1/2 gal mark, but can you go lower, or will it hurt efficiency of the heating? My guess would be he put it right in the middle of the wort that way, since he did 5 gal batches with this.

Where does everyone else put it? I was thinking of putting it right where the side of the keggle starts to straighten out.

At the "2 1/2 gal mark" that would scare the hell out of me unless I didn't care about burning out elements with very little liquid coverage above plus had a chit load of free ones to replace them. What makes 2 1/2" so special this a proven location for the most efficency in heat energy or BTU's of transfer? Why not locate it lower and let the heat rise thru more liquid before releasing heat into air sooner vs letting the element heat rise with 2 1/2 gallons of cold liquid below not get heated I must ask? Then factor in a PITA with the element up high with chiller coil clearance problems not alone banging up the element until it fails during cleanings. This is my take on the 2 1/2 gallon of height to element location placement posted.

 

[BrewBeemer]

I put mine as low as possible without interfering with my Hopstopper:
Kal

Kal; you still alive? I totally agree mount the element low as possible and let the heat rise naturally thru the most liquid volume mass.
Remember the model "T" without a water pump due to heat rising for auto circulation or heat convective transfer? Something in the past about the laws of thermal dynamics.

 

[humboldt]

Kal, that's an awesome tutorial, I'm glad I checked this thread again and saw your link before I tried using a hole saw.

 

[conpewter]

Well Kal's element ( as well as mine) will survive dry firing. That's one of the great things about the ULWD elements. Mine is even lower but I have the bottom drain on my boil kettle so I don't have a dip tube in the way.

Q: What are Lime Life elements?
A: These elements are BEST. They are made of nickel/stainless steel and are ultra low watt-density. These features prevent lime buildup and extend the life of the element. A Lime Life element is not affected by dry-firing. These elements carry a limited lifetime warranty. Because of the low watt-density, these elements are folded back to reduce the length. Some are rippled to further reduce the length to fit the diameter of the tank.

http://www.camco.net/faqelement.cfm

 

[willynilly]

I mean, this is in a BK, why would you have the element on when you are draining it anyway? 2.5 gallons is plenty low enough, unless you leave your element on while you are draining the BK