black lager(Schwarzbier) critique

[harry-wang]

This is what Ive come up with thus far for 11 gallon batch.

9.5 lbs Munich (10L)
9.5 lbs Pale Malt (2L)
-
3.5 lbs Carafa III (525L)
or
4.25 lbs Midnight Wheat (425L)
- ^ both of these seem like a whole lot

2 oz Cascade @ 60min
1.5 oz Sterling @ 5mins

Should I be so concerned with the 50 SRM I'm shooting for? I'm looking to make something close to Sam Adams Black Lager. The website has it at 50 SRM
http://authoring.samueladams.com/craft-beers/black-lager#

Also, I was hoping to use American hops, think those will work?

Est Original Gravity: 1.051 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.1 %
Bitterness: 22.9 IBUs
Est Color: 51.1 SRM

 

[giraffe]

that seems like alot of carafa3. I usually go with 8-10%. If you want darker id might consider sinamar or similar. Either way, id add the roasted grains at the end of the mash, you want a smooth mild coffee like roast, too much carafa3 can end up being slightly vegetal if you leave it the whole mash.

Id probably split the sterling into a 5 and 20 min addition, you want some hop flavor. And sterling in late additions sometimes will give an odd pineapple note, which definitely wont go. If you want to use american hops, liberty may be a better option. Or some other US hallertau like hop.

 

[harry-wang]

Ok, I don't have an option for Sinamar, since ill be brewing this week and my LHBS doesn't carry it. Ill go with cascade and liberty.

What if i cold steep the carafa3 or use Midnight Wheat?

...Sam Adams only list 3 grains and gets it to 50 SRM(from the website).

 

[giraffe]

Cold steeping is great. I would go that route if you got the time. Both malts are fine, I like midnight wheat, it is very clean, but my lhbs stopped carrying it. Carafa3 is also pretty clean if you dont mash it for 60 min.

I havent had sam adams black lager in ages. I was thinking 15% carafa3 would be on the high end compared to german examples. But those arent 50srm either. Go for it and let us know how it goes.

 

[saltymirv]

Ok, I don't have an option for Sinamar, since ill be brewing this week and my LHBS doesn't carry it. Ill go with cascade and liberty.

What if i cold steep the carafa3 or use Midnight Wheat?

...Sam Adams only list 3 grains and gets it to 50 SRM(from the website).

In my experience, breweries calculate their SRM in some way other than using BeerSmith or other recipe calculators that homebrewers use. I'm not sure if they are actually measuring it with lab equipment or what, but they always list crazy high SRM values.

I would just brew the beer to standard Scharzbier guidelines (20-30 SRM) and like the other poster said, 8-10% Carafa

 

[harry-wang]

Ok, Awesome ill lower it to 8.5% get about 33SRM. should I still cold steep or add the Carafa3 to the mash at sparge time?

What are your thoughts using Midnight wheat over Carafa3?

 

[BigEd]

This is what Ive come up with thus far for 11 gallon batch.

9.5 lbs Munich (10L)
9.5 lbs Pale Malt (2L)
-
3.5 lbs Carafa III (525L)
or
4.25 lbs Midnight Wheat (425L)
- ^ both of these seem like a whole lot

2 oz Cascade @ 60min
1.5 oz Sterling @ 5mins

Should I be so concerned with the 50 SRM I'm shooting for? I'm looking to make something close to Sam Adams Black Lager. The website has it at 50 SRM
http://authoring.samueladams.com/craft-beers/black-lager#

Also, I was hoping to use American hops, think those will work?

Est Original Gravity: 1.051 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.1 %
Bitterness: 22.9 IBUs
Est Color: 51.1 SRM

Whoa Nelly! Back it up on the Carafa. That 3.5 lbs is over 15%, way too much. Don't be too concerned with that 50SRM number. I'd be happy with 25-30 which will still be dark enough. One pound would put you @ 4% which should be plenty to make a good looking Schwarzbier.

My preference would be to increase the percentage ratio of the pilsner malt. With 50/50 dark Munich this will taste more like a Dunkel than a Schwarz. Not that Dunkels are bad, I love them, but with a Schwarz you want a little more dry & crisp effect. Keep your overall grain total @ 22.5 lbs and perhaps break it down to 12.5 lbs pils, 9 lb Munich II, and 1 lb of Carafa.

American hops? Maybe but not Cascade. This beer needs German hops all the way through. You can use an American type like Mt. Hood or Liberty or stay with the Old World and use Hallertauer, Spalter, Tettnager, etc. If you just want to use a generic bittering hop try Magnum. I'd also drop the amount and move back the time on the second addition. Schwarzbier might be known as Black Pilsner but the hops are lower, especially at the end. I'd stick with a German noble style, one ounce tops and use 20 minutes for the second addition. This will still give you a nice touch of aroma, along with background flavor but not intrude on the malt. Schwarz is not a Festbier or bock but the malt should be accented a little more than in a pils.

 

[harry-wang]

Awesome, thanks for all the quick responses.

Mash as normal with the Carafa?

 

[z-bob]

I think Midnight Wheat malt is 550L not 350L.

25 SRM should be plenty black enough. You can get there with less than a pound of Carafa Special III or Midnight Wheat.

I have a Schwarzbier recipe that I haven't tried yet: it's 66% pilsner, 26% dark Munich (15L), 4% Crystal 150 or Special B, and 4% Midnight Wheat. Santiam hops at 60 minutes and 15 minutes for 23 IBU's total.

 

[BigEd]

Mash as normal with the Carafa?

Yes.

 

[roadkizzle]

From reading discussions the german homebrewers have Schwarzbier can vary greatly depending on what you're wanting. There are many german brewers that would love your 50/50 Munich/Pilsner malt. Others want it to be much drier more like a pils with some thicker body and roasted flavors... I definitely fall into the latter category. Leave the bready caramel like flavors for the Dunkel Lager.

I do say pull back on the roasted malt. >15% caraffa is to much. BUT. In the last 5 gallon schwarzbier I made I used 12oz of Chocolate malt and 4oz of caraffa 2. That came to 8.5% of my grain bill. I did not think that the roastiness overpowered the other flavors.

I've never used Sterling hops but I do like Liberty hops.

 

[jef179]

+1 on the Pilsner tip. Munich malt will give you a dunkel profile. The schwarz is crisp and clean so you want to mash low with mostly Pilsner malt and the other recommendations for carafa and old world hops.

 

[saltymirv]

I don't mean to rain on your pilsner parade here, but the following recipe won a gold medal at NHC in 2015:

5.0 lb (2.27 kg) Munich I malt
2.0 lb (0.9 kg) Munich II malt
0.6 lb (272 g) Pilsner malt
0.25 lb (113 g) Carafa II malt
0.25 lb (113 g) chocolate malt

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/may-the-schwarz-be-with-you/

Some people prefer the light and crisp schwarz, while others prefer rich and malty. The BJCP guidelines allow both interpretations of the style. Some people go all pils, some all munich, and many in between. To OP, I think your amounts of Munich/Pils are fine

 

[roadkizzle]

Yeah. It entirely depends on what the OP wants to drink. Substantial munich malt is appropriate in a schwarzbier although it will normally be darker than a dunkel and have some sort of roasty character that the dunkels don't have.

I don't remember Sam Adams Black Lager having the bready slightly sweet flavors of munich malt but it's been many many years since I've drank that beer. It was one of my favorites when I was 20-21 but I haven't had it since then and that's been about 10 years. I've been searching for it this past year but haven't seen it in Texas. I don't know if it still exists.

I love Köstritzer and model my schwarzbiers on that profile more so.

Either using munich malt or pils malt as a base can provide very good examples of schwarzbier it just depends on what you are looking for.

Edit: If you haven't tried Köstritzer then I'd recommend trying it for research purposes.

 

[z-bob]

One of my favorite beers is Full Sail Black Lager. It has pale, Munich, chocolate, and caramel malts, according to the brewmaster. It's lighter-bodied than one would expect from that malt bill, so the majority is probably plain 2-row or pilsner. They hop with Willamette and Glacier.