BJCP is a four letter word

[gbx]

I was looking through a practice exam and decided I don't want to dedicate my brain and effort into learning about a bunch of made up styles I have no interest in, fake history and brewing pseudoscience.

 

[Piratwolf]

I was looking through a practice exam and decided I don't want to dedicate my brain and effort into learning about a bunch of made up styles I have no interest in, fake history and brewing pseudoscience.

I can understand where you're coming from. I'd even add that the inconsistent content in the descriptions makes it hard to know what's most important in judging a style.

That being said, it's necessary to have a common vocabulary and common standards of reference in order to communicate effectively. While flawed, the BJCP standards DO give us beer lovers that.

 

[bb239605]

I was looking through a practice exam and decided I don't want to dedicate my brain and effort into learning about a bunch of made up styles I have no interest in, fake history and brewing pseudoscience.

as a bjcp judge I recognize that there is a lot of information. But pseudoscience? Fake history? Perhaps your facts are false. This is pointless conjecture without any specific quotes to back up your wild claims.

 

[Pappers_]

as a bjcp judge I recognize that there is a lot of information. But pseudoscience? Fake history? Perhaps your facts are false. This is pointless conjecture without any specific quotes to back up your wild claims.

I agree. I'll wait for one example of fake history or pseudoscience.

 

[ArcaneXor]

I dislike the BJCP system for other reasons. Which is why I am on the waiting list to take the exam later this year, so that I can determine whether my dislike is based on prejudice or has a basis in fact.

 

[Zamial]

I get that the OP doesn't want to commit to studying for the test. This is the main reason I have not. They did just revamp the entire process making it better IMO and one day I will take the exam.

The BJCP rankings do not hold much sway for me until you get to the national level or better. This is not to rip on those that are not there yet but palates are something that are trained (most of the time) and a higher ranked BJCP judge to me means they have ACTUALLY JUDGED MORE brews.

It is the "industry standard"... Without a set of standards a sanctioned competition becomes a "popularity/tastes good to me" event. Nothing wrong with these, I actually prefer the non-BJCP comps that I have entered/am planning to enter but I fully recognize the BJCP as the "standard format of judging homebrews/beers".

As for pseudo science and false history questions... I agree with the others that are waiting for a citation... If you want some "off the wall/bizarro" test that the Q&A need a LOT of work on, try the Cicerone test. THAT is a piece of work...

 

[Andrewtherooster]

I can understand where you're coming from. I'd even add that the inconsistent content in the descriptions makes it hard to know what's most important in judging a style.

That being said, it's necessary to have a common vocabulary and common standards of reference in order to communicate effectively. While flawed, the BJCP standards DO give us beer lovers that.

I agree. It is good to have a set of standards and definitions, but the current set is in need of a re-write.

 

[Brulosopher]

That being said, it's necessary to have a common vocabulary and common standards of reference in order to communicate effectively. While flawed, the BJCP standards DO give us beer lovers that.

Necessary? Nah! Perhaps "helpful" or "fun," but to necessary. That said, awhile I'd never dedicate time to becoming a judge (don't really like that word), I'm cool with those who do. No biggie to me

 

[Bobby_M]

I dislike liverwurst and Monday mornings and decided not to spend anymore time on them either.

 

[Revvy]

Methinks this is just a troll post.

 

[Bmorebrew]

I think I get where he's coming from, though I don't fully agree. A little, but not a lot. I don't see this issue as black and white where one needs to pick a side as it were. There is a need for style standardization, naming convention, etc., and the BJCP is the best we currently have at satisfying that need. It's not perfect, but that doesn't mean it can't or won't be improved upon as it continues to evolve.

Again, I'm not taking his side, but as quick examples I think these sort of things do come off as "pseudosciencey":

From 14B, American IPA: History: An American version of the historical English style, brewed using American ingredients and attitude.
What does this mean in scientific terms?

From 12A, Brown Porter: Overall Impression: A fairly substantial English dark ale with restrained roasty characteristics.
Be more specific - using substantial as a qualifier for "ale" is ambiguous and there ought to be a better and more specific descriptor. Are they referring to color, body, etc?

But again, this is not a particularly big deal since these comments do not reside in the subsections of aroma, appearance, flavor, etc which absolutely should be free from subjective terminology.

Just my thoughts.

 

[dbhokie]

Anything that takes the abstract and gives it structure will be resisted. I have loved having bjcp as a reference tool as I am creating recipes. It gives me most the information I need. Granted many times I don't care if I fit into a certain style or guideline. I'll make what I want, but it's nice to have them there, especially for newer brewers who are just discovering the "styles" thy like

 

[brettwasbtd]

They are style guidelines meant to serve a general rule of thumb for a style of beer. This allows for classification in competition. My own problems with it has been on an individual judge level, when the judge, who is not well seasoned has picked out ONE piece of the entire style to base their score on. If you go and try different styles from their originating countries, you will notice a lot of difference within a same style. There is flexibility. Judges need to take the style into account, but also listen to their pallates - if they think they could down pint after pint of a beer cause its so delicious, but it is slightly off on the guidelines, a good judge will give it a good score.

As for qualified judging, there is a huge bottleneck in the process for admitting new judges. The new test format should alleviate that, but it will take some time. I myself am on the waitlist of a test 10 months out!

 

[Pappers_]

The new test format should alleviate that, but it will take some time. I myself am on the waitlist of a test 10 months out!

The backlog is remarkable. I am signed up for a test that is a five hour drive away, but that's because there are only two tests scheduled in the Chicago area for the next 16 months, both have very large waitlists, and no other tests can be scheduled in that time (BJCP limits the number of tests scheduled nationally in any month). It's a little crazy.

 

[brettwasbtd]

The backlog is remarkable. I am signed up for a test that is a five hour drive away, but that's because there are only two tests scheduled in the Chicago area for the next 16 months, both have very large waitlists, and no other tests can be scheduled in that time (BJCP limits the number of tests scheduled nationally in any month). It's a little crazy.

Ya i know. I was told I am 12th on the waitlist but if I want to sign up for the 2013 test in 22 months they have spots available! I was informed that they may be allowing more seats at the tasting sessions soon...keeping my fingers crossed

 

[Yooper]

The backlog is remarkable. I am signed up for a test that is a five hour drive away, but that's because there are only two tests scheduled in the Chicago area for the next 16 months, both have very large waitlists, and no other tests can be scheduled in that time (BJCP limits the number of tests scheduled nationally in any month). It's a little crazy.

Where are you going Pappers? I'm going to Minneapolis for the September 8 test.

I really like the BJCP guidelines. It gives you a goal to shoot for, especially as a newer brewer.

As an example, I make a beer called "Fat Sam". It's an American amber. One time, I wanted to use some homegrown hallertauer hops up, and I had some Munich malt to use. I subbed those into my FS recipe. The end result was an odd beer. It was good, but it was a distinctly German ale. My friends who love Octoberfest styles loved it. But I didn't. It was too odd for me, if that makes sense. The BJCP guidelines will help with creating recipes like that- telling you that German hops would be out of place in an American amber.

That doesn't mean everyone should just brew precisely to these guidelines of course! But I had a friend who loved to experiment with her beer and she loved her product. That's the main thing. I didn't love her weird Honey Wee Heavy Molasses Porter. It was way too odd for me. But she loved it. And she didn't care a thing about style guidelines.

I think there is room for both viewpoints. Her viewpoint is valid, of course, and she only brews for herself and not competitions. I'm more of a style guru, although I do vary from the guidelines when making my beers also.

But in competition there needs to be some measure for judging. It's not a "I like this beer best!" competition. It's a "This beer exemplifies the style guidelines!" competition. That's a big difference. I've scored some beers that I've loved poorly, simply because there were entered in the wrong category and don't meet the criteria for the style. That's the nature of the beast.

 

[bierhaus15]

From a purely historical perspective, I agree with the OP. Though I also realize there needs to be a format for competition judging and the BJCP does a well enough job. The quality of judging still leaves something to be desired, but it is getting better for some of the styles.

Moreover, the style guidelines for most, if not all of the English styles are pretty much complete fantasy. They took a few basic characteristics of some of the beers and made their own little styles out of it. Northern and Southern English Brown ale - Really? Who came up with that crap. Brown Porter, Robust Porter? Complete bollocks. Lets not even talk about the 'Scottish' ales.

 

[gbx]

...yeah, i shouldn't have posted something that seems so trolling when I don't have the time to fully debate. The post title was inspired by the "Reinheitsgebot is a four letter word" t-shirts basic brewing sells. I thought it was funny and resulted in 0 hits when searched for ...so here we are.

fake history: read anything they have to say about the origin of styles or even definition of style. this has been well documented but here is something posted today on http://barclayperkins.blogspot.ca/2012/04/how-can-you-call-that-stout.html (a blog that former BJCP official Kristen England posts to)

pseudoscience: Read any of the brewing science posts on this board and compare to what is said about water chemistry in BJCP exams

....and just the sometimes crazy style definitions. This is something that is frequently discussed on this board. Its not hard to find styles with commercial examples that don't match the style guidelines (eg. Hobgoblin listed as northern brown...there are better examples but thats one i can think of off the top of my head).

 

[Varmintman]

To those of you who are becoming judges or at least learning what is involved in judging a beer I salute you and wish you the best.

Saying that though at least for me I have no urge to learn the different styles or what not. I have never read the judge handbook nor am I likely ever to read it. I simply like beer.

Nothing wrong with wanting to know everything about brewing just as there is nothing wrong about not knowing all the styles of beer. All I want to do is brew the beer that I enjoy the most and brew it in the best way possible. If the best way is using DME or AG I will do what I want or tastes best to me.

Again I am happy that many people here are going all out since it can do nothing but help improve the beer we make.

Kind of long winded but I guess a easy way to say it would have been to each their own.

 

[bmbigda]

could this post be any less productive? when you don't like something, you suggest improvements. Every once in a while you hear people complain about the BJCP, but never once have I seen a thread where an individual lays out their plan for a better competition system. Is it possible to come up with one? probably. As it stands right now the BJCP is the best way to fairly compete with fellow homebrewers. The best way to do so is to specifically brew to-style for competition, followed by cat 23/16E, and finally entering your beer into the closest category it resembles.

The BJCP does not aim to categorize every beer in existance, instead they provide a mostly comprehensive, documented list of categories that a group can then use as a basis for competition.

Next the BJCP created standardized guidelines to judge by. As is true with any code/standard, they are open to interpretation by the end user. That is the best you can do with a categorical style beer competition in my opinion. A different style competition could come up, but as of now, these open forum ones that exist don't interest me.

Someday, someone may come up with an alternate type of beer competition, but until then the BJCP is fine by me.

 

[bmbigda]

i also think i'd like to see a better type of competition, and have spent a lot of time brainstorming myself...but always end up at an idea that is basically the BJCP. i'm not in a love affair with the BJCP either, though my first post makes it seem that way. It just makes sense to me and I can't think of a better way, so I don't say anything.

 

[gbx]

And I'm fine with it if it was just memorizing a bunch of style guidelines. If you are going to have comps you need guidelines as an historic ipa shouldn't be judged against an american ipa. I really just wanted to learn the tasting side but the practice exams i found went way beyond memorizing a set of arbitrary guidelines. Maybe they are old exams? A lot of this stuff is still on the BJCP website

 

[dbhokie]

I have a beer competition daily. I usually win.

I just realized, maybe it is the beer that wins.

 

[bmbigda]

I have a beer competition daily. I usually win.

I just realized, maybe it is the beer that wins.

haha. i do something similar. here at the home-brewery we have a daily quality control status meeting, that takes place after work in my living room.

 

[Pappers_]

And I'm fine with it if it was just memorizing a bunch of style guidelines. If you are going to have comps you need guidelines as an historic ipa shouldn't be judged against an american ipa. I really just wanted to learn the tasting side but the practice exams i found went way beyond memorizing a set of arbitrary guidelines. Maybe they are old exams? A lot of this stuff is still on the BJCP website

Honestly, your posts show a naivete about tasting, competitions and the BJCP. For example, memorizing the style guidelines are not the key to being a good judge - as a judge you can refer to the guidelines at the table during the judging. The key is developing your palate, being able to recognize what you are tasting, being able to call it something that other people will recognize and know what you are talking about. This comes from experience, tasting many beers of many styles, and concentrated, consistent and organized effort to develop your sensory and communications capabilities.

I do not think that every homebrewer should enter competitions or that competitions are the only good reason to homebrew. But your critique of the BJCP misses the point.

 

[Homercidal]

The reason I want to study to become a judge is to know more about the styles and flavors and become a better taster. The end result would be to help people discover flaws in their beer and improve their techniques to make better beer.

I rarely brew with the goal of entering and winning a competition. But knowing more about tasting, and judging more beer, will help not just my own beer, but many others' as well.

The number of people entering entering competitions is a small portion of the number of people who homebrew. The BJCP is simply set up for those who want a way to compare beer with in a standardized system.

 

[lou2row]

The reason I want to study to become a judge is to know more about the styles and flavors and become a better taster. The end result would be to help people discover flaws in their beer and improve their techniques to make better beer.

I rarely brew with the goal of entering and winning a competition. But knowing more about tasting, and judging more beer, will help not just my own beer, but many others' as well.

The number of people entering entering competitions is a small portion of the number of people who homebrew. The BJCP is simply set up for those who want a way to compare beer with in a standardized system.

:rockin::rockin::rockin:
You my friend, are someone I would like to see at the table if I had entered a brew. You put what should be important to each judge in perfect context. Learning, helping others, making better beer. This is such a communal hobby that to see this people that become judges to feel more important and to criticize others is B.S. Way too many have a bad case of "little man's disease" and want to lord their "superior knowledge" over newcomers. I could read through the posts on this forum and pick the folks that I believe are the epitome of what brewing is about and should stand for.

 

[amandabab]

I was looking through a practice exam and decided I don't want to dedicate my brain and effort into learning about a bunch of made up styles I have no interest in, fake history and brewing pseudoscience.

beat you to it about ten years ago.
just got sick of flavor of the month styles.

 

[gbx]

This is an interesting thread from more than 4 years ago outlining inaccuracies in the BJCP style guide. Some big names in homebrewing in there including a BJCP official. part 1 http://barclayperkins.blogspot.ca/2008/01/porter-or-stout.html part 2 http://barclayperkins.blogspot.ca/2008/03/bjcp-rules.html Most of these errors are still posted on the bjcp website.

 

[signpost]

I have a beer competition daily. I usually win.

I just realized, maybe it is the beer that wins.

Do you teach classes?

 

[Derek]

Kristen said:

"The most important thing about the guidelines are for whatever styles we choose to have there must be commercial examples readily available. There is no point in having an exercise in education if you can't actually taste a beer thats brewed to that style. Make sense?"

I wonder if he feels any differently after working with Ron? I like historical brewing precisely because I can't purchase a beer that's brewed like that. Unfortunately, they don't seem to do well in competition because of the guidelines.

The Porter categories drive me crazy. You could enter a historic brew and a cascadian dark in their made up 'robust' category.

 

[BigfootCounty]

the bjcp isn't perfect but it is what we have and it is a pretty damn good system.

The problem is that the judges are people, and people have different tastes and all judges have flaws. In some circumstances ( *in my opinion) Judging can be less than objective but the alternative is have no standardized system for judging beers.

there are MANY MANY MANY variables but at the end of the day you just have to what you can do personally to make the best beer you can.

You should really consider becoming a judge yourself. It is fun, educational and you could be one of the many judges who can provide entrants with objective and constructive insight. BE THE CHANGE!

 

[Lazarous]

methinks this is just a troll post.

troll!

 

[aubiecat]

It's according to what your definition of "is" is.

 

[DubBrew]

I concur that studying for the exam in a worth while thing to do. Even if you do like the guidelines or think they are inaccurate it still really helps. I tried so many different beers and have been far more focused on the the specifics aspects of each that my pallet has improved dramatically.

With the new testing procedures its even better because you don't have to focus so much on the written exam and can really focus on tasting beer. Plus where can you tell your friends and wife that you need to "study" by drinking beer.

 

[Airborneguy]

I have to agree in regards to the history. I just finished a beer history college course, and theres plenty of peer-reviewed published literature out there which directly conflicts with the myths that permeate the craft beer culture. I cannot cite specific BJCP examples, but the overall 'beer culture' pushes quite a few false historical stories.

 

[jtakacs]

the OP did a fabulous job of arranging deck chairs on the titanic.