BIAB with tap water

[JoeSpartaNJ]

The point has been made that "it depends" or "it depends on your goals". Sure, that's exactly what it is. Attention to one of 100 possible details in any given process (such as brewing) will only incrementally improve the outcome. What happens is that each individual brewer will pick a few (out of 100) to care about and once they make beer they are happy with, all the other possible ones are a complete waste of time so stop telling me I'm wrong. No one really has the time or endurance to explore every option.

What I can say with confidence is that the best brewers I know all brew with RO water and care very much about their mineral profile and mash pH. Aside from my personal opinion about who a good brewer is, here's more data. The people in the GSHB club below all use RO. I don't know about the other two.

View attachment 807644


On the other hand, you might see this and conclude that water is extremely important because the biggest winners care about it. Well, it's just one of 100 things. To brew at this level, I can tell you they care about a LOT more than the water.

I didn't realize this would cause such a debate.

I kind of did a reset. Went back to all my original methods on my oatmeal stout. Used tap water, 60 minute boil times (had done 30 or less for the last few years), did a mash out for 10 minutes. I guess we will see how it goes. Worst case scenario, I'm out $30 and 5 hours of my time.

As for competition, I have only entered a few (only out of peer pressure from from my club, and did ok.) We enter beers we do as a group, and do fairly well usually.


BTW......Larry Bentley wins everything.

 

[Bobby_M]

Any questions that distills down to "does X matter?" will invoke debate. It becomes a bit passionate because most people think their beer is great and it's great specifically because of the exact way that they have brewed it.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I kind of did a reset. Went back to all my original methods on my oatmeal stout. Used tap water, 60 minute boil times (had done 30 or less for the last few years), did a mash out for 10 minutes. I guess we will see how it goes. Worst case scenario, I'm out $30 and 5 hours of my time.

$30 to "try it out" seems like a reasonable and cost effective approach for an experienced brewer.

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More generally, for some brewers here, the rising cost of RO / distilled water is causing them to look into using tap water. For example, there was this

Seeing as the RO machine has more than doubled in price I'm looking for cheaper/alternative means.

in the topic that I mentioned in #15 (above).

In a couple of recent topics, there is sufficient information to 'piece together' an approach for brewing with tap water (including tap water with multiple sources). There are a number of steps and a number of decisions - it's not easy-peasy, but it's also not a rabbit hole.

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It's likely that the topic of "how can I reduce the cost of my brewing water?" will be back.

With prior reoccurring topics ("extract darker than expected"), there is often a piece of information missing (color of the LME going into the kettle).

With tap water, that piece of information appears to be an understanding of the mineral content of the tap water. For some brewers, it may be just a general understanding; for others, it may be knowng ppm.

 

[mac_1103]

most people think their beer is great and it's great specifically because of the exact way that they have brewed it

Whenever I brew something that people tell me tastes great, I figure I just got lucky. Then I go back to my notes and try to do exactly the same thing again to see if my luck will hold. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. But I haven't made anything undrinkable yet (despite my best efforts).

I spent the past 40 years needing to be completely anal about everything in my job and damned near perfect all the time. Brewing is my retirement hobby. I don't want it to be like work. OTOH I still very much enjoy learning about what others who are much more fastidious than I do to address various issues. I like to understand the theory even if I'm not going to put it all into practice.

 

[NSMikeD]

The point has been made that "it depends" or "it depends on your goals". Sure, that's exactly what it is. Attention to one of 100 possible details in any given process (such as brewing) will only incrementally improve the outcome. What happens is that each individual brewer will pick a few (out of 100) to care about and once they make beer they are happy with, all the other possible ones are a complete waste of time so stop telling me I'm wrong. No one really has the time or endurance to explore every option.

What I can say with confidence is that the best brewers I know all brew with RO water and care very much about their mineral profile and mash pH. Aside from my personal opinion about who a good brewer is, here's more data. The people in the GSHB club below all use RO. I don't know about the other two.

View attachment 807644


On the other hand, you might see this and conclude that water is extremely important because the biggest winners care about it. Well, it's just one of 100 things. To brew at this level, I can tell you they care about a LOT more than the water.

This is a BIAB thread. I wonder how many blue ribbon brewers are BIAB. Not that you can't brew great beer in BIAB. If we start with the premise that one enters BIAB knowing that without some modifications, we are simplifying the process that might sacrifice some of the finer details in brewing but yet still being able to brew a very good beer.


On that assumption if a BIAB brewer is concerned with their water there are two options that stand out (ie there are others but let's start with the obvious ones). They can invest in a filtration system that will provide 0 TDS clean palette. This is certainly an option and a decent RO (or RODI) system for home brewing can be gotten in the $100 - $200 range. Keep in mind knowing your tap water chemistry (ie sending out to be tested or using municipal reports) is useful in determine the size and type of filtration you will need.

The second is a bit more reliable to the "if it tastes good it will be good for brewing" test. Using a municipal water report, while not exact, can be very useful to the home brewer without having to spend money. It will let you know if your water is hard or soft and whether or not they are treating it with chorine or chloramine (see my above post). A few variables will be the frequency of the reports, the variations in the tests and level of key elements and compounds. One's water may be too hard and alter the beer in an undesirable way and thus a filtration system may be his/her best option.

IMO, it all starts with knowing what is coming out of your tap. Without that information, all discussion are anecdotal and not much use to the brewer seeking knowledge. If your were coming to my house and asked for directions, I would firstly have to asking you a question: where are you? Same for water and brewing.

Then is comes down to whether or not a home brewer wants to incorporate water chemistry into their method and how exacting they want to be. Fortunately, there are good articles from the basics to very sophisticated to educate the brewer and most brewing software can make this a very easy process for the newer brewer to use.

 

[DBhomebrew]

This is the issue with tap and municipal water quality reports. I'm just now looking at my district's most recent on their website. "2021"

Alkalinity (CaCO3) 51.5-304
Ca 25.4-74.9
Cl 5.26-13
SO4 17.2-41.2
TDS 148-350

With that range, what am I supposed to do?!

 

[InspectorJon]

What I can say with confidence is that the best brewers I know all brew with RO water and care very much about their mineral profile and mash pH.

I suppose this might go in the “it depends” category also. One can care deeply about mineral profiles and pH but still use municipal water if the water is right.

I live in an area that has very low mineral content, mountain water runoff in the municipal water supply (Sierra Foothills east of Sacramento). It is all rain water and snow melt. There is little seasonal change in the water and every local brewery I have asked uses tap water and makes adjustments depending on the beer style. There is a production scale sake maker in Folsom that chose the location because of the water.

Of course not everyone lives in the Land of Sky Blue Waters or can say It’s The Water.

 

[AlexKay]

This is a BIAB thread. I wonder how many blue ribbon brewers are BIAB. Not that you can't brew great beer in BIAB. If we start with the premise that one enters BIAB knowing that without some modifications, we are simplifying the process that might sacrifice some of the finer details in brewing but yet still being able to brew a very good beer.

Professionals use BIAB, in the form of a mash filter. Mash filters make world-class beers. The Germans tend not to use them, but the Belgians do, and have for over 100 years.

 

[odie]

left Twix vs right Twix...

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

This is the issue with tap and municipal water quality reports. I'm just now looking at my district's most recent on their website. "2021"

Alkalinity (CaCO3) 51.5-304
Ca 25.4-74.9
Cl 5.26-13
SO4 17.2-41.2
TDS 148-350

With that range, what am I supposed to do?!

Ideas for measuring water quality on brew day:

• Beginners Guide to Water Treatment (plus links to more advanced water treatment in post #1)
• Brewing with unfiltered tap water advice

FWIW, I haven't used these ideas (yet), but I am gathering up ideas for possibily switching from 'no mineral' water to tap water of a known mineral content.

 

[hout17]

This is a BIAB thread. I wonder how many blue ribbon brewers are BIAB. Not that you can't brew great beer in BIAB. If we start with the premise that one enters BIAB knowing that without some modifications, we are simplifying the process that might sacrifice some of the finer details in brewing but yet still being able to brew a very good beer.

You are simply talking about another all grain technique to brew beer it has nothing to with if it's better or not than fly sparging let's say.

I'm sure @Bobby_M will chime in on this as there are some award winning brewer's that use BIAB.

If you enjoy the hobby and your beer you make then don't worry about it. That is the bottom line you can go as technical or as simple as you want and still make decent beer even great beer if the style works with your water particularly well.

I brew with tap water but I get a water report from Wards labs every so often to adjust my water profile with brewing salts and check my pH during the mash. I do this because it's fun to me and enjoyable.

I also use glass carboys with straps still and a bottling bucket and bottle half as much as I keg.

Have fun enjoy the hobby and have a homebrew!

 

[DBhomebrew]

Ideas for measuring water quality on brew day:

• Beginners Guide to Water Treatment (plus links to more advanced water treatment in post #1)
• Brewing with unfiltered tap water advice

FWIW, I haven't used these ideas (yet), but I am gathering up ideas for possibily switching from 'no mineral' water to tap water of a known mineral content.

TL/DR: Ignore the municipal report.

 

[doug293cz]

This is a BIAB thread. I wonder how many blue ribbon brewers are BIAB.

Me for one. I don't enter a lot of competitions, but I brew exclusively with BIAB, and have taken first. BIAB is All Grain Brewing, and is just an alternate way of separating the grain from the wort (removing the grain from the wort, rather than removing the wort from the grain - that's it.)

I use tap water, but I am also blessed with rain/snowpack run-off water, that has low mineral content, low alkalinity, and is consistent year round. I do add minerals and acid or base (depending on recipe), and treat with metabisulfite to eliminate chlorine.

Brew on

 

[Bobby_M]

This is a BIAB thread.

It only happens to be in the BIAB subforum but I would argue this specific discussion, as posed by the OP, has nothing to do with BIAB (Sorry Joe). As has been argued many times, BIAB doesn't have special water considerations outside of any other all grain brewing process.

I wonder how many blue ribbon brewers are BIAB.

In the table of the 1st, 2nd, and 4th NJ homebrewers of the year, all three of them brew BIAB and I know because I built their systems.

IMO, it all starts with knowing what is coming out of your tap. Without that information, all discussion are anecdotal and not much use to the brewer seeking knowledge.

Agree. The problem with it is that even if you test, many municipalities draw from different water sources that will significantly change the numbers while you're not looking.

 

[Bobby_M]

I suppose this might go in the “it depends” category also. One can care deeply about mineral profiles and pH but still use municipal water if the water is right.

I live in an area that has very low mineral content, mountain water runoff in the municipal water supply (Sierra Foothills east of Sacramento). It is all rain water and snow melt. There is little seasonal change in the water and every local brewery I have asked uses tap water and makes adjustments depending on the beer style. There is a production scale sake maker in Folsom that chose the location because of the water.

Of course not everyone lives in the Land of Sky Blue Waters or can say It’s The Water.

I was trying not to generalize too far outside the OP's statement that he doesn't have a tap water report or test. It would be amazing, and simple, if we all had nearly distilled water flowing out of our taps.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

many municipalities draw from different water sources that will significantly change the numbers while you're not looking.

... and if one suspects their tap water may have multiple profiles, see #62, #65, #71, & #74 in Brewing with unfiltered tap water advice for some ideas on how one might detect / adjust to this situation.

 

[NSMikeD]

It only happens to be in the BIAB subforum but I would argue this specific discussion, as posed by the OP, has nothing to do with BIAB (Sorry Joe). As has been argued many times, BIAB doesn't have special water considerations outside of any other all grain brewing process.

In the table of the 1st, 2nd, and 4th NJ homebrewers of the year, all three of them brew BIAB and I know because I built their systems.


Agree. The problem with it is that even if you test, many municipalities draw from different water sources that will significantly change the numbers while you're not looking.

With municipal water does drawing from different sources equally materially different water chemistry. I can’t speak for other municipalities but my water company tests regularly and posts the ranges and published annually. The numbers are very steady and for the key items the range for my purposes are narrow enough I use the midpoints. I am sure there are places where the wells and aquifers are from sources that have differing geology. The county in which I live draws from the Lloyd Aquifer which is a massive source under the northeast so that the water is nearly identical from district to district and year to year. I only know this because I read check the reports and update my software. Otherwise I would use my rodi filtration system to brew.

As for chlorine, which vis-a-vis chloramine are materially different for a home brewer since chlorine dissipates in minutes when the water is heated while chloramine requires a long boil to remove.


My apologies to the expert BIAB brewers. I should have added that in context to asking if one can use tap water suggested a beginner level of experience that corresponded with BIAB as a popular method for entry into all grain because of its simplicity and less hardware requirements. I didn’t mean to imply that the style of brewing could not be sophisticated and exacting. My bad for a lazy generalization

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm sure @Bobby_M will chime in on this as there are some award winning brewer's that use BIAB.

The two time NJ homebrewer of the year is eBIAB for sure but I do have some other interesting data. My club "Garden State Homebrewers" are 3-time (consecutive) NJ club of the year based on total points in competition. We took a survey and here are some takeaways.

Note that the medal count here excludes the last major competition of our season because it happened after the survey. I filtered out anyone that didn't compete or didn't medal.

Maybe a more impressive figure is just how many of the weighted points were split between system designs.

 

[MrClint]

I don't get the whole beer medal angle at all. Coors light, Budweiser and such win medals all the time. Pabst won a blue ribbon at least once.

 

[doug293cz]

I don't get the whole beer medal angle at all. Coors light, Budweiser and such win medals all the time. Some of these seem a bit like the blue ribbon for best hog at the county fair. How mediocre were the other hogs? What do these kinds of medals actually validate?

Competitions are a way for brewers to get their beer evaluated by trained judges according to detailed quality criteria. In general brewers who do well in competitions can be assumed to make better beer than those who do not do well in competitions. In sanctioned competitions, the judges are blind to who brewed the beers they are judging, so favoritism does not come in to play. Judging isn't perfect by any means, but on average it gets things right. Do you have any suggestions for better ways to determine who makes good beer and who doesn't (if you do it would be better discussed in a thread of its own, as an extended discussion here would be off topic.)

Brew on

 

[Bobby_M]

I don't get the whole beer medal angle at all. Coors light, Budweiser and such win medals all the time. Pabst won a blue ribbon at least once.

Those are all examples of masterfully brewed beers with consistency across millions of barrels but that's besides the point. BJCP competitions are the only way we have to compare similar beers against each other across different brewers. You have an extreme blind spot in this regard but if you have any interest in understanding, there are tons of discussions about BJCP and the validity of those competitions.


Your comment seems to miss the point that this guy right here is a MONSTER brewer just on this data alone. The two relevant regional competitions had entry limits of 3 and 5 respectively and it also included the national competition which he entered two in. So out of only 10 entries, he picked up 3 golds and 2 silvers. In both of those competitions, one of the golds won first place best of show. One of those silvers was at the NHC for a German Pilsners so it was the second best German Pils out of 146 entries.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

... Pabst won a blue ribbon at least once.

Comment of the week right there, and nobody even noticed!

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I use only tap water for brewing, My Cl, So4 and Ca levels are all in the 20-30ppm range except Na wich is about 50-55.
But I brew mostly British ales with a British approach to water so I adjust most of those up a lot.
We get our municipal water from a deep ground water aquifier, and I get a yearly report from the county water administration, showing the average during the year, as you might expect the deviances year to year are very small.
De chlorination I have never bothered about since tap water here is never chlorinated.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

This appears to be one of those "scorched earth" type of discussions that I see on just about every Internet message board. [...]

I don't get the whole beer medal angle at all.

Competitive people like competitions.

There are brewers here who are continuously striving to make the next beer the best beer. When that effort is focused on a particular style (or ingredient or process step), the results are a joy to read.

Many brewers here are short on time and looking for ideas to brew good beer quicker. They're not 'in it to win it'.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I should have added that in context to asking if one can use tap water suggested a beginner level of experience that corresponded with BIAB as a popular method for entry into all grain because of its simplicity and less hardware requirements.

Speed Brewing (2015) does most of this for 1.75 gal batches.

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It may be that most people have "low enough mineral" water and can brew reasonable hazies and pastries using their tap water [1] [2].

But if a batch 'fails', and water mineral content is unknown, a reasonable next step is to understand water mineral content [2].

Water is local - and local brewers would be a good source of techniques to enhance water quality.

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[1] always remove chlorine and chloramines
[2] don't overlook the possibility of seasonal mineral content

 

[MrClint]

There is cork-sniffery in just about every human endeavor. We're brewing beer over here --not solving global climate change. This isn't important work we're doing. We are catching a drinkable buzz that hasn't always been legal, and will get you locked up (or worse) in many parts of the world. We are alchemists turning porridge into a really good time. Drink enough non-medal beer and the world will still look pretty dang good. Brewing decent beer with your local water proves that you're not living in a post-apocalyptic toxic hellscape, and validates that you still have a modicum of freedom.

 

[Bobby_M]

There is cork-sniffery in just about every human endeavor. We're brewing beer over here --not solving global climate change. This isn't important work we're doing. We are catching a drinkable buzz that hasn't always been legal, and will get you locked up (or worse) in many parts of the world. We are alchemists turning porridge into a really good time. Drink enough non-medal beer and the world will still look pretty dang good. Brewing decent beer with your local water proves that you're not living in a post-apocalyptic toxic hellscape, and validates that you still have a modicum of freedom.

Ah, the thread is slipping into the "you care too much, I care just the right amount" phase. The one thing that formal BJCP competitions offers to this particular discussion is a VAGUE measure of wide-geographic objectivism where none could otherwise exist. Someone who consistently catches gold medals and best of shows in a large field of competitors objectively grasps at least most of the important brewing techniques at a pretty high level.

An important counterpoint is that it does not denigrate people who don't compete. It does not invalidate all the beer made with no regard to stylistic accuracy.

 

[hout17]

There is cork-sniffery in just about every human endeavor. We're brewing beer over here --not solving global climate change. This isn't important work we're doing. We are catching a drinkable buzz that hasn't always been legal, and will get you locked up (or worse) in many parts of the world. We are alchemists turning porridge into a really good time. Drink enough non-medal beer and the world will still look pretty dang good. Brewing decent beer with your local water proves that you're not living in a post-apocalyptic toxic hellscape, and validates that you still have a modicum of freedom.

That's your view some people approach the hobby in different ways. Ways they enjoy doing the hobby. There is nothing wrong with that just like there's nothing wrong with mashing some grains and making beer without worrying about anything else.

The information is there if one decides to pursue a different avenue or go the more technical route and this is a good thing but if you don't want to do it then don't it's up to each person to decide how they want to approach this hobby.

 

[Willammes Macena]

O que era simples saber quem usa água da torneira ou não, virou algo para saber quem ganha mais fita azul ou medalha...... rsrsrs

Nada muito diferente na terra da Banana

What was simple to know who uses tap water or not, became something to know who wins more blue ribbon or medal...... lol

Nothing much different in the land of Banana

 

[mac_1103]

An important counterpoint is that it does not denigrate people who don't compete. It does not invalidate all the beer made with no regard to stylistic accuracy.

Yeah, not exactly sure why this should need to be said, but thanks for saying it.

And having now read quite a bit on this topic and taken another look at my local water authority's annual report with fresh eyes, it becomes clear that I am among the lucky ones who have tap water that is pretty good for brewing some decent beer. Chlorine not chloramine, low hardness and alkalinity, consistent values within narrow ranges, etc. Again, I don't have to worry about mine too much but lots of other people clearly do have to worry about theirs.