BIAB vs mash tun
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I don't think either has a particular limit. Some BIAB guys don't get great efficiency, but I've heard others do. Sparging methods are key. Use enough sparge water, stir, and get all of the wort out of the grain.
It is my reading and understanding that those that perform a traditional mash and have complete control over their process typically achieve a better efficiency than those that BIAB. The key being complete control from milling on as each step in the process can screw up or improve your efficiency.
ICWiener
Well-Known Member
I was a BIAB brewer for a long time. Over 25 or 30 batches I never got much more than 60% efficiency with BIAB. I recently bought new gear and have switched over to mashing/sparging in a cooler, and I've already hit 75% on all but one batch.
It's just one brewers experience, so take it with a grain of salt...but those numbers are consistent with what I had heard from sources like HBT and the Brewing Network.
It's just one brewers experience, so take it with a grain of salt...but those numbers are consistent with what I had heard from sources like HBT and the Brewing Network.
I'm a BIAB brewer and I tend to hit about 60-65% on average, some do much better, some do worse. Definitely more control with traditional mashing. With BIAB you sacrifice that bit of control for simplicity and less equipment to buy/store. My process is super easy so having to buy an extra pound of grain doesn't bother me. Its all a personal preference thing.
aubiecat
Well-Known Member
I use BIAB exclusively. I get great tasting beer from that which is all I care about.
I use a mashtun when I am doing really big beers that require more than 14lbs of grain. My system is 10 gallon so anything over 14 lbs of grain has to go in a mashtun.
I prefer the BIAB to all other brewing because it is a convent way to brew all grain.
Anyway the efficiency is predicated on the brewer. Know your system and you will make great beer. That is all that matters in the end.
Everything you could ever want to know about BIAB and more is here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-partial-mash-brewing-pics-75231/
paraordnance
Well-Known Member
BIAB with sparging will easily yield 80-85% efficency depending on the grain bill. It is more about process than equipment. Once you dial it in you will love it. I BIAB for 3 years now. I do everything from step mashing to multiple decoctions with great results due to direct-fired MLT which BIAB has to offer. I just started to enter competitions couple months ago and already have a few medals. Extraction of sugars from the grain its just part of the process.
The efficiency of BIAB really depends on how big the beer is. If I'm brewing something in the 1.030's, I easily hit 80%, as it gets bigger it drops off to around 65% at 1.050 which is about the limit I can no-sparge a 5gal batch in my 40qt pot.
But any loss in efficiency from BIAB can be corrected with a few extra lbs of grain. Your total batch cost may be $5 more but you'll save at least an hour from your brew day not having to slowly run off to avoid a stuck mash. How much is your time worth? I don't mind a few extra dollars to save an hour.
The only real downsides to BIAB:
-You can't vorlauf and will always end up with a cloudy wort in your kettle. Fine for some styles, maybe not the best for a helles or pilsner
-Temperature control is harder. When no-sparging there is a lot of water so correction are almost impossible and there will be hot and cold areas in your mash.
But any loss in efficiency from BIAB can be corrected with a few extra lbs of grain. Your total batch cost may be $5 more but you'll save at least an hour from your brew day not having to slowly run off to avoid a stuck mash. How much is your time worth? I don't mind a few extra dollars to save an hour.
The only real downsides to BIAB:
-You can't vorlauf and will always end up with a cloudy wort in your kettle. Fine for some styles, maybe not the best for a helles or pilsner
-Temperature control is harder. When no-sparging there is a lot of water so correction are almost impossible and there will be hot and cold areas in your mash.
The only time I got less than 80% efficiency was when the locknut loosened on my Corona mill and it adjusted itself coarser. I set my software at 80% to calculate the grain amounts and keep having trouble with overshooting my predicted OG, even on batches that are over 1.060. I did a Belgian wit that I expected about 5.5% ABV and hit 7.2% instead. There isn't any reason for one kind of mashing to be always higher efficiency than the other. It's all in the crush and technique.
Just curious if you added washers or made any other mods to your mill? I just got a corona mill recently and I'll be running my second batch through it tomorrow night. I feel my first attempt ended up a little rough and my efficiency suffered. Apologies for threadjacking.
I just tightened the adustment until the plates were rubbing when it was empty. I didn't need any washers to do that.
Man, you 60%ers gotta be doing something wrong. I do BIAB with a mash out and hot water "sparge" and I average 75% efficiency *as calculated by* my expected OG divided by/into my actual OG.
Last night I expected 1.063 and ended up at 1.060 because I didn't mash out and my volume was high, else I would have been over, most likely. That's 72% efficiency according to iBrewMaster.
Last night I expected 1.063 and ended up at 1.060 because I didn't mash out and my volume was high, else I would have been over, most likely. That's 72% efficiency according to iBrewMaster.
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I just did a MIAB (mash in a bag). I don't have a false bottom, so I used a bad to put the grains in. Used a cooler for a lauter tun, and did the sparge in a 5 gallon bucket with holes drilled in bottom. also used a lid from a cooking pot to press the sweet wort from the grains. My efficiency? 90%...but I have my mill set at .028, and I had quite a few particles in my boil pot.
mb82
Well-Known Member
I think the worst efficiency I have gotten with BIAB was 69% on my first try. Second was like 72% third was 84% and I have stayed above 80% with beers up to 1.074. I am planning a 1.100 barleywine just to see how much drop there is. There really should not be much efficiency difference between BIAB and MLT.
Similar results here. I think low BIAB efficiencies are the exception, not the rule.
I'm in the high-efficiency BIAB club. With a "regular" strength beer I get around 73-75%. If I go for a session beer I get about 85%. Once I start milling my own grains I expect that to go up.
Shakybones
Well-Known Member
In case you haven't seen it, Revvy started a great thread on Corona mill adjustments here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/my-ugly-junk-corona-mill-station-90849/
I think that the low BIAB efficiencies are from the same cause as low efficiencies in a conventional tun, the crush. If you depend on someone else to do the crush, you can expect lower efficiency.
I'm a low efficiency BIABer and but thats because I don't sparge. If I mash thick and sparge 85%+ is no problem. ...but I don't like sparging as it takes extra time and the entire reason I quit using the mash tun was to save time.
LLBeanJ
Well-Known Member
I totally agree. If consistency and efficiency are the goals, you really need your own mill. Having complete control of your crush, coupled with a sparge, will get your BIAB efficiency in the 85-85% range for most brews.
LLBeanJ
Well-Known Member
It's hard to have a simple conversation about efficiency because it's affected by so many factors and even the word "efficiency" is applied to several different check points in the brewing process. While the Australian brewer concept of BIAB has pretty specific implications (no sparge, full volume mashing), many HBT users that say they BIAB are employing some method of sparging.
Efficiency can be lost due to non-conversion of starch in very coarse grists. Everyone can help this by optimizing their crush for the separation medium they use. For BIAB, you can go to almost flour. At the typical lautering stage (wort from grist separation), efficiency is lost due to wort trapped in the grist. BIAB usually allows you to physically squeeze the wort out while traditional lauter tuns just let gravity do it. However, all methods leave wort in the grist to some degree and are all subject to lower efficiencies as the OG target goes up.
Efficiency can be lost due to non-conversion of starch in very coarse grists. Everyone can help this by optimizing their crush for the separation medium they use. For BIAB, you can go to almost flour. At the typical lautering stage (wort from grist separation), efficiency is lost due to wort trapped in the grist. BIAB usually allows you to physically squeeze the wort out while traditional lauter tuns just let gravity do it. However, all methods leave wort in the grist to some degree and are all subject to lower efficiencies as the OG target goes up.
The biggest advantage to BIAB is you can move the grain, thus you can mash and sparge however you want. With a mash tun, the grain is where it is and you must mash there and sparge there. This means a separate vessel is completely dedicated to the tun. Yes, you can hybrid BIAB IN a cooler, and still only use one other large pot to heat water and then also do your boil. You could either collect first runnings in a bucket (which means your 3-vessel, just not multiple physical pots made of metal) and add sparge water to the cooler (which could be done with a manifold, too), or you could simply dunk the bag into the kettle, which has your sparge volume, and then drain the tun into the kettle to combine runnings.
The most basic method of BIAB is full volume in a single pot. The disadvantage, perhaps, is the pot must be very large to accomodate ALL of the water needed for the brewing, as well as the displacement of water made by the grain when added.
There are many ways to skin the cat, though. Bottom line is that you can BIAB with a reasonable sized pot and a bucket, or a large pot and nothing else, or a cooler and a pot, or any number of ways. I brought up the cooler only because it helps maintain temps without direct heat applied.
The most basic method of BIAB is full volume in a single pot. The disadvantage, perhaps, is the pot must be very large to accomodate ALL of the water needed for the brewing, as well as the displacement of water made by the grain when added.
There are many ways to skin the cat, though. Bottom line is that you can BIAB with a reasonable sized pot and a bucket, or a large pot and nothing else, or a cooler and a pot, or any number of ways. I brought up the cooler only because it helps maintain temps without direct heat applied.
paraordnance
Well-Known Member
Sorry but I just don't understand how would sparge make it any longer? I do not heat my sparge water. It is room temperature RO water from store. I don't even bother to mash out. I fire up my burner, just lift the bag at the end of mash with rachet and let her drip. Couple minutes later I sparge the bag with room temperature water for 1-2 gal to get myself to proper pre-boil level. My sparge is done and bag squeezed wayyy before wort starts to boil. Done. 75-80% efficency with wort SG of 1.070 or less. When I brew into 1.040 numbers (which I never do) I always seem to overshoot with about 85-87% efficency and have to water it down.
Over the years I tried so many different things like mash out, full volume BIAB, heating sparge water. Some will have negative effect on efficiency and some none at all. So why bother do it. Simplicity is beautiful thing
LLBeanJ
Well-Known Member
Sounds pretty much like my own process and how it evolved. And, though it is always still evolving, I'm pretty pleased with the simplicity of my current process, which includes a fine crush, no mashout, and one to two gallon cold water sparge while the bulk of the wort is heating for the boil. My default brewhouse efficiency setting is 85%. I only consider lowering it if OG exceeds 1.070. Even at 85%, I usually overshoot by a point or two or three. Even hit 90% once.
interesting approaches with the unheated sparges, thanks for sharing. Can you tell me exactly how you guys are sparging using this method, are you ladling/slow pouring the water over the bag, or dunking it? Something else?
LLBeanJ
Well-Known Member
I sparge using a 5-gallon bucket with a bunch of 3/16" holes in the bottom nested inside a 6.5 gallon ale pail bucket. I pull the grain bag from the kettle, hold it over the kettle for a couple of minutes to let most of the wort drain from the bag, then set the bag of grain in the drain bucket with the bag draped over the sides. Pour unheated, filtered sparge water over the grains and let it drain through the drain bucket into the catch bucket. Let it drain for 5 minutes or so, then compress the grain with a metal pot lid that is a little smaller than the inside diameter of the bucket to get as much wort as possible from the grains. Pull the drain bucket and dump the sparged wort into the kettle. Piece of cake.
Efficiency is a chemistry problem: how much sugar can you get in your solution? In either case, we want to saturate water with sugar, and things that can raise the point at which a solution is saturated are temperature, pressure, and contamination. We only really have control over the first one, so it's really just getting the temperature of the sugar/water as high as possible without being too high. After that, stirring helps sugar find unsaturated pockets of water.
The difference between BIAB and a mash tun IMO is that the grain bed in the mash tun can act as a filter and you can vorlof to get a clearer wort.
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solution#Solubility
The difference between BIAB and a mash tun IMO is that the grain bed in the mash tun can act as a filter and you can vorlof to get a clearer wort.
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solution#Solubility
Haven't seen this method described anywhere before...outstanding thank you. Seems to be a great way to squeeze the bag without having to it with your hands. Also, FYI, the immaturist in me can hardly talk about BIAB methods without laughing like beavis and butthead.
paraordnance
Well-Known Member
I don't even bother with another vessel/bucket. All I do is lift the bag from the kettle/MLT, set it over the top of kettle on oven rack (I BIAB with steamer basket) or lift the basket lined with bag with the ratchet and then pour 1-2 gal of cool RO water over the top. I'm not worrying much about the speed I'm sparging with. 1-2 minutes or just dump it all, doesn't make a difference. Water will slowly find its way to the kettle within 5-10 minutes via gravity. After that I squeeze the living life out of the bag. And since my sparge water is room temperature my hands thank me for that.
I tried to dunk bag in separate vessel in a past but I found that doing so usually leads to slight sticky spills on my deck which is not acceptable anymore.
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This is very similar to what i do...at least until I get a false bottom for my cooler.
Old thread and all, but how much water do you usually mash with vs. sparge with? Last night I hit 75% eff., a full 10% higher then what I've been getting. One thing I did different is mashed with 5gal water, and cold water dunk (ok room temp) with 2.5gal water. Then squeezed the bag.
THIS is the method I need to try. I've been trying to figure out ways to compress the grain bag without making a mess. I currently put a stainless steel pot rack on top of my bucket and pour/squeeze. Its hard to prevent wort from oozing over the sides, and the pot rack is really coarse, so the pressure on the grains isn't consistant. Is it important to slowly pour (or trickle) the water over the grains, so it makes contact with as many grains as possible?
Thanks for the tip!
This is basically what I do. I have a small grate that fits perfectly over my pot, and I just lift the bag and set it there to drain. I then ladle sparge water over and through the bag distributing it evenly until I get close to my starting boil volume, then I squeeze. It's a bit warm and can occasionally drip but my efficiency has been consistently 75-80%.
LLBeanJ
Well-Known Member
What I've been doing lately is putting all of my brewing water in my kettle to treat it with brewing salts and a campden tab. Then, before doughing in, I pull out and set aside about 1.75 gals for the sparge. Why 1.75g you ask? Because it fits nicely in my spare 2g stock pot. When the time comes to sparge, I slowly pour about 1/2 of the sparge water over the grain, which usually completely covers the grain and let it drain for a few minutes, then add the remaining sparge water.
Recently, I increased my grain absorption rate in Beersmith so that I don't have to bother with squeezing the bag anymore. I still don't think there is anything wrong with squeezing, but I noticed it was putting stress on the bag, so I thought it might be better to forego squeezing. I use a little more water, but I hit my pre-boil volume with gravity draining alone. I haven't noticed any decrease in efficiency, which has settled in at about 82-83% for most brews, by not squeezing.
Recently, I increased my grain absorption rate in Beersmith so that I don't have to bother with squeezing the bag anymore. I still don't think there is anything wrong with squeezing, but I noticed it was putting stress on the bag, so I thought it might be better to forego squeezing. I use a little more water, but I hit my pre-boil volume with gravity draining alone. I haven't noticed any decrease in efficiency, which has settled in at about 82-83% for most brews, by not squeezing.
