BIAB Questions - Lautering with spigot & grain milling

[jharmon203]

I am looking to trying to move from extract to BIAB. I am looking at getting a larger brew kettle with a temperature probe and spigot built in. My first question is why dont people just open the spigot into bucket or something during lautering. It would seem you would be able to get alot of the water out via that method vs pulling the bag out with a hoist. You could also push the bag down to the bottom of the kettle to squeeze a bit more out if you so desired. Any downsides to doing this so long as the bag doesn't get pushed against the temperature probe?

Secondly, I have a phil mill I inherited from a family member who used to brew. I keep reading that the best way to get efficiency up is to grind very finely. Is it possible to get too fine with a phil mill?

 

[mirthfuldragon]

One of the big pluses to BIAB is using a single vessel, so there's no need to lauter and sparge into a bucket/vessel. You certainly can, of course. I squeeze the bag with some silicone gloves and it's not really a big deal.

For grind, I use a cereal killer at a gap of around 0.25 or so without issue. I haven't used a phil mill so I can't speak to that.

 

[jharmon203]

Thanks for your reply. My only reason for using the term "lauter" was just referring to separating the water and sugar from the grain. i would think it would be much easier to just open that spigot and let it drain out vs trying to lift that bag up. I would then remove the grain bag without the added water weight and put the wort back into my kettle to bring up to boil temperature.

I still brew on my gas stove which I tend to prefer.

 

[micraftbeer]

just open the spigot into bucket or something during lautering.

Personally, this sounds like a brilliant idea. The one thing I hated about BIAB was dealing with that dumb bag full of heavy, wet grains. Sure, I know people install pulleys, but that just seemed like too much work to me, and too big of a commitment that I knew exactly where I wanted things long term. The other thing with those bags that drove me crazy is the drip and mess when taking the bag away from the kettle as you take it away from your kettle and over to a sink or wherever to deal with the spent grains.

If you are going into a bucket, I'd be concerned about the hot wort leeching stuff from the bucket and affecting your flavor. You could use another cheap pot (aluminum or stainless) and then just pour back into your main kettle when it comes to boil time. Hot water rinse is probably sufficient for cleaning for those that are concerned that you have to clean "one more thing". If it's just holding wort for a short time, and doesn't get boiled in.

Of course there's also a time benefit you're losing out on. You could be heating the wort while letting the grains drain. Depending on how fast/aggressive you get with squeezing the grains out, that might be minimal effect.

 

[myndflyte]

I do something similar but I mash in a converted 10 gallon cooler. I figured since I have it, why not use it? Plus it holds temps pretty well without having to futz with anything. That being said, I still lift the bag out and squeeze it. But the spigot is open and filling my pot while that's happening.

 

[RPh_Guy]

My first question is why dont people just open the spigot into bucket or something during lautering.

You're describing a multi-vessel brewing system, and yes, a lot of home brewers do it that way (myself included). Many people mash in a cooler and then open the drain to lauter.

 

[jharmon203]

Ok, I guess I figured when most people move from extract to all-grain, they likely already have a 5 gallon kettle (I have 2). I planned on emptying into my 5 gallon kettles them put that back into the larger kettle to heat back up once the grains are removed. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't something I was missing that was glaring for me not to try this. I guess the whole point of BIAB is to use one vessel.

 

[Yooper]

Ok, I guess I figured when most people move from extract to all-grain, they likely already have a 5 gallon kettle (I have 2). I planned on emptying into my 5 gallon kettles them put that back into the larger kettle to heat back up once the grains are removed. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't something I was missing that was glaring for me not to try this. I guess the whole point of BIAB is to use one vessel.

No problem doing it the way you suggest.

But yes, with BIAB often the beauty of it is a full-volume mash (no sparging or lautering since you just lift the bag as the lautering method), and then lift out the bag and turn on the heat.

But there are many ways to do this. I use a bag in my MLT in a three vessel system with two pumps. So I have a traditional set up, but often will do a full volume no-sparge in my smaller 5 gallon batches (my 11 gallon batches won't fit the full volume/no sparge). I think there are as many ways to brew as there are brewers!

 

[cbier60]

For grind, I use a cereal killer at a gap of around 0.25 or so without issue. I haven't used a phil mill so I can't speak to that.

I assume this is a typo. Did you mean 0.025"? If so, that's an awfully small gap that will result in a much finer grind than I would recommend. I have been BIABing for years with a 0.039 gap (~1mm) for most grains and 0.030 for smaller grains like wheat or GNO with excellent efficiency. Even though you have a bag, I wouldn't recommend grinding to flour. How long does it take for your bag to drain?

 

[cbier60]

i would think it would be much easier to just open that spigot and let it drain out vs trying to lift that bag up. I would then remove the grain bag without the added water weight and put the wort back into my kettle to bring up to boil temperature.

So you're trading off lifting the bag with having to lift the 5 gal buckets of hot wort to dump them back into the brew kettle (unless you're pumping it back in).

 

[mirthfuldragon]

I assume this is a typo. Did you mean 0.025"? If so, that's an awfully small gap that will result in a much finer grind than I would recommend. I have been BIABing for years with a 0.039 gap (~1mm) for most grains and 0.030 for smaller grains like wheat or GNO with excellent efficiency. Even though you have a bag, I wouldn't recommend grinding to flour. How long does it take for your bag to drain?

I'm usually a bit neurotic about my decimals, but yes, 0.025, or that's what my Cereal Killer says. I keep meaning to pick up a set of feeler gauges to actually measure but never do. A credit card won't fit unless the rollers try to grab it. I have not had any issues; efficiency levels are high 70s. It's definitely not flour. I use a second-hand Brew Bag. YMMV, of course. I pull the bag up, let it drain for a few minutes, squeeze it down, then dump the grains into the compost.

 

[LittleRiver]

... 0.025"? If so, that's an awfully small gap that will result in a much finer grind than I would recommend. ... I wouldn't recommend grinding to flour....

.025" is the gap that myself and several others on this forum have found to work quite well. We recommend that mill gap all the time. Some flour in your grind is not a problem, it's an indication the grind is fine enough for BIAB.

...How long does it take for your bag to drain?

I hoist the bag above the kettle and let gravity thoroughly drain it during the entire boil. No squeezing required.

So I guess the answer is "less than an hour".

 

[jharmon203]

I still like doing boils on my gas stove inside so lifting it out isn't really an option. I was just wanting to make sure there weren't any cons to using the drain.

 

[LittleRiver]

I normally don't sparge, it's something I only do for high ABV beers (over ~1.065). But when I do sparge, using the drain valve makes the process easy:

• mash with half the total water
• drain the wort into a bucket, leaving the bag & grains in place
• add the remaining water to the grains & stir, raise the bag
• fire the heat for the boil, add the bucket of wort to the kettle

 

[jdudek]

My latest experience with fine crush (0.026) and bag of questionable origin was burnt wort. A lot of flour made it out of the bag. I could see it initially, putting the dry crush in the bag, the flour was seeping out. I went for it anyway and 5G went down the toilet. Ordered a wilsner bag.
Many biabers here crush very fine including some who literally just pulverize it with a corona mill. Most of them suggest using the bags from wilsner.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

A lot of flour made it out of the bag. I could see it initially, putting the dry crush in the bag, the flour was seeping out.

Out of curiosity, do you put the grain in the bag and then the bag into the water, or the bag into the water and then the grain into the bag that is in the water?

 

[jdudek]

Out of curiosity, do you put the grain in the bag and then the bag into the water, or the bag into the water and then the grain into the bag that is in the water?

I put the bag in the water, and then the dough in the grain. In this case i only performed a test with the bag by putting a bit of the dried crush malt in to see if it will hold the fine crush. It didn't... so i probably should have stopped my brew day there!