BIAB HERMS?

[cchristoph]

Has anyone seen or used a two vessel HERMS/BIAB setup? I'm thinking of building a 15 gallon system similar to below. Would really prefer to not use a RIMS tube although I know that would probably be an easier solution.

-HLT has heating element and HERMS tube
-MLT used for mash and boil
-Two pumps one for recirculation and one to pump water from HLT on top of grains for sparge
-Pump that runs wort in HERMS tube would have valve that can switch to plate chiller
-Propane fire MLT maybe one for HLT too to speed up

Some questions I haven't been able to answer on my own...

Suggestions for heating element size?
Suggestions for PID controller? (want to do a DIY for fun, not necessarily to save money)
I've seen some HERMS with multiple temperature sensors, can I get away with just using one on the return of the HERMS tube leaving the HLT?

Thanks in advance for anyone willing to offer guidance/advice.

 

[doug293cz]

I wouldn't mix propane and electric. Just go full electric.

How do you plan to sparge with this system? You need somewhere to run-off the initial wort to prior to sparging, unless you plan to spray sparge water over the suspended bag. I wouldn't recommend that method, as it will be difficult to get repeatable results, due to uncertain flow patterns thru the grain mass.

I highly recommend Auber EZBoil DSPRxxx controllers instead of commodity PID's. They have features not available with commodity PID's.

One temp sensor is all you need to control your system. You can add others for monitoring temp deltas at different locations in the system, but these are mostly useful for initial characterization. Once you know what the deltas are, and what control set point to use, they become less useful. A handheld probe can be used for the initial characterization.

Brew on

 

[cchristoph]

I wouldn't mix propane and electric. Just go full electric.

How do you plan to sparge with this system? You need somewhere to run-off the initial wort to prior to sparging, unless you plan to spray sparge water over the suspended bag. I wouldn't recommend that method, as it will be difficult to get repeatable results, due to uncertain flow patterns thru the grain mass.

I highly recommend Auber EZBoil DSPRxxx controllers instead of commodity PID's. They have features not available with commodity PID's.

One temp sensor is all you need to control your system. You can add others for monitoring temp deltas at different locations in the system, but these are mostly useful for initial characterization. Once you know what the deltas are, and what control set point to use, they become less useful. A handheld probe can be used for the initial characterization.

Brew on

Yeah, I was planning on hoisting bag and sparging over the top but that's a good point. I'll just stick with no sparge and compensate with more grain once I learn the efficiency.

What size element do you think would be best for the 15G HLT? I'm open to using 240V if it makes for a better choice.

 

[doug293cz]

Yeah, I was planning on hoisting bag and sparging over the top but that's a good point. I'll just stick with no sparge and compensate with more grain once I learn the efficiency.

What size element do you think would be best for the 15G HLT? I'm open to using 240V if it makes for a better choice.

For a 15 gal HLT you should use a 5500W element at 240V. A 5500W element draws about 23A, so you will need a 30A circuit as a minimum. If you think you might need to run both the HLT and MT/BK elements at the same time, then you should have a 50A circuit.

Brew on

 

[Beer4All]

I am about to move to this setup from a 3-vessel (time savings). Using a keggle with a 5500W element and a brew bag. I use a Auber EZ Boils for HERMS/HLT control and boil kettle. I made one of the temp sensors portable using camlock fittings that I can move around during the brew day (recric wort temp during mash, CFC going into fermenter).

 

[RM-MN]

If you care to do a little experimenting, try one no sparge batch with no HERMS, no recirculation and check your efficiency. If you have iodine, also check for complete conversion and see how long it takes. While HERMS works out for a conventional mash tun and the more coarsely milled grain you may not need it for BIAB if you mill the grain for it.

 

[Beer4All]

If you care to do a little experimenting, try one no sparge batch with no HERMS, no recirculation and check your efficiency. If you have iodine, also check for complete conversion and see how long it takes. While HERMS works out for a conventional mash tun and the more coarsely milled grain you may not need it for BIAB if you mill the grain for it.

That does sound like a good experiment, will plan to do that over my next few batches. Part of me wants to use the Herms just to use it but will be interesting to see.
What mill gap are you using for BIAB? what is your usual mash efficiency?

 

[RM-MN]

What mill gap are you using for BIAB? what is your usual mash efficiency?

I use a Corona mill and have it set as tight as it goes. I expect efficiency in the low 90's with a 30 minute mash. What I give up with that is control over fermentability. If I want to change the fermentability for body or sweetness I have to use a Crystal malt. Mash temp doesn't seem to have any effect. I've mash from 150 to 160 with the same FG.

 

[Beer4All]

I use a Corona mill and have it set as tight as it goes. I expect efficiency in the low 90's with a 30 minute mash. What I give up with that is control over fermentability. If I want to change the fermentability for body or sweetness I have to use a Crystal malt. Mash temp doesn't seem to have any effect. I've mash from 150 to 160 with the same FG.

Wow good efficiency..wasn't even getting that with my 3-vessal HERMS (low to mid 80s using batch sparge). Find out what works for you right.

My mill is a credit card right now...will look to bring it closer for my first BIAB batch. Appreciate the info. Will update this back with the results from recirc/not.

 

[RM-MN]

One of the ways to improve efficiency is to sparge (everyone knows that, right? A second batch sparge gets more of the sugars but not as much as the first because the concentration went down when you removed sugars with the first batch sparge. You also know you shouldn't bother with a third sparge because there won't be much sugar left and anyway, doing the hot water sparge can extract excessive amounts of tannin as the pH of the sparge goes up.

Well, something doesn't add up because I seem to get a significant amount of sugars on the third sparge and I don't get excessive tannins. Why? Because I don't use hot water for the sparge. Cool water does just as well for sparging and it won't extract much for tannins. That third sparge seems to be where I get part of the high efficiency. The rest of it is from having the grains milled so fine that the starch is readily available and conversion and then extraction are quick and complete.

 

[doug293cz]

One of the ways to improve efficiency is to sparge (everyone knows that, right? A second batch sparge gets more of the sugars but not as much as the first because the concentration went down when you removed sugars with the first batch sparge. You also know you shouldn't bother with a third sparge because there won't be much sugar left and anyway, doing the hot water sparge can extract excessive amounts of tannin as the pH of the sparge goes up.

Well, something doesn't add up because I seem to get a significant amount of sugars on the third sparge and I don't get excessive tannins. Why? Because I don't use hot water for the sparge. Cool water does just as well for sparging and it won't extract much for tannins. That third sparge seems to be where I get part of the high efficiency. The rest of it is from having the grains milled so fine that the starch is readily available and conversion and then extraction are quick and complete.

Can you post some info from one of your runs? Grain bill wt, strike volume, sparge volumes, initial run-off volume, and individual run-off SG's. Third sparge SG should be less than 1.020, for beers up to ~1.070 OG. Be interested to see what you're getting.

Brew on

 

[RM-MN]

I can give you some of that info but not all of it. Strike volume is normally about 3 1/2 gallons in a 5 gallon pot (it fits my kitchen stove top under the range hood). Grain weight, 5 to 5.5 lbs. Sparge volume is what will fit into the plastic bowl with the colander and grain in it. It isn't measured, I just put the bowl and grains under the tall faucet and let it run while stirring until it looks like it might overflow. When I finish with the third sparge the wort is usually half an inch from the top of the 5 gallon pot. My refractometer shows that the third sparge is about 1.025-1.030. If I didn't need (want?) the volume I might not do the third sparge.

Guessing that I would have about 3 gallons in the pot before I start sparging and the sparges are nearly equal in size although the final may not fit. Sometimes I boil off a little before adding the last, sometimes I just dump it out. Not exact enough for real computation I know. Software estimates the correct OG for a 3 gallon batch at 85% efficiency. I normally hit that OG with about 4 gallons so the efficiency is higher than 85%. As the efficiency gets higher, the measurement needs to be more accurate to get the exact numbers.

 

[doug293cz]

Can't do any truly accurate simulation with those numbers. But making some assumptions, you could have lauter efficiencies in the 90 - 95% range. Your final runnings SG does seem way too high - for a well run batch sparge it should be down around 1.010. How well are you draining after you sparge steps?

Brew on

 

[RM-MN]

Can't do any truly accurate simulation with those numbers. But making some assumptions, you could have lauter efficiencies in the 90 - 95% range. Your final runnings SG does seem way too high - for a well run batch sparge it should be down around 1.010. How well are you draining after you sparge steps?

Brew on

I squeeze. I squeeze pretty hard even. It could be from a smaller amount of water in each sparge. I can't dilute each time as well because I don't use enough water. If I used more water that number would come down and I would spill wort all over the kitchen floor.