BIAB Crush Opinions Needed

[Epos7]

I'm about to attempt brewing my first beer tomorrow - a BIAB Zombie Dust clone. I just returned from using the mill at my LHBS.

I set the mill to the finest setting, but I'm worried it's still too coarse for BIAB. I've attached a picture, and am hoping more experienced brewers can offer some opinions on whether this crush will work or not.

The attach files feature isn't working, so here's a link to the picture instead:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16976040/2016-08-05 14.53.00.jpg

Thanks!

 

[Epos7]

I went back to the LHBS and ran it through the mill two more times for good measure. The store has instructions written on the mill for adjusting coarseness, but while I was there the second time I discovered they're backwards. Thought I had it on the finest setting, but as it turns out that's the coarsest setting.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

I run mine through twice on my mill and its very good, glad you figured it out

 

[Sammy86]

I'm about to attempt brewing my first beer tomorrow - a BIAB Zombie Dust clone. I just returned from using the mill at my LHBS.

I set the mill to the finest setting, but I'm worried it's still too coarse for BIAB. I've attached a picture, and am hoping more experienced brewers can offer some opinions on whether this crush will work or not.

The attach files feature isn't working, so here's a link to the picture instead:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16976040/2016-08-05 14.53.00.jpg

Thanks!

That crush was rough...glad you went and did it again...saved yourself some really poor efficiency!

 

[C-Rider]

Make it look like flour. I use a blender and can do 6 lbs in 10 min.

 

[cannman]

With BIAB you really can go to flour. I crush once with the gap set at .44 and hit my efficiency regularly. I could go finer but if you don't dehusk the grain after the first roll (which is near impossible IMHo) your beer can take on an astringency quality. Such balance!

 

[doug293cz]

With BIAB you really can go to flour. I crush once with the gap set at .44 and hit my efficiency regularly. I could go finer but if you don't dehusk the grain after the first roll (which is near impossible IMHo) your beer can take on an astringency quality. Such balance!

Keep your pH in the low to mid 5's, and you won't have an astringency problem. There are commercial breweries that use hammer mills to pulverize the grain, and then lauter with hydraulic or pneumatic filter presses. They wouldn't be able to do this if very fine crushes were the cause of astringency.

Brew on

 

[cannman]

Keep your pH in the low to mid 5's, and you won't have an astringency problem. There are commercial breweries that use hammer mills to pulverize the grain, and then lauter with hydraulic or pneumatic filter presses. They wouldn't be able to do this if very fine crushes were the cause of astringency.



Brew on

Forgive me for not linking the source(bed time for night shift), but it's the shredding of the husk that can add to astringent flavors. This is a big reason why grains went between roller pins and away from loose flour making mills which pulverize everything. Husk shredding is absolutely a factor. I'm not saying the primary reason, but one to account for.

 

[doug293cz]

Forgive me for not linking the source(bed time for night shift), but it's the shredding of the husk that can add to astringent flavors. This is a big reason why grains went between roller pins and away from loose flour making mills which pulverize everything. Husk shredding is absolutely a factor. I'm not saying the primary reason, but one to account for.

I'd like to see the link to your source. I'd posit that roller mills to minimize husk shredding are more about needing the intact husks (and larger grits) to keep loose enough grain beds in traditional lauter tuns, in order to prevent stuck run-offs.

There are lots of BIABers on HBT who use "Corona" style mills to grind to (near) flour, shredding husks in the process. I don't see them complaining about astringency.

Brew on

 

[Epos7]

Thanks all. Wish I'd taken a picture of the crush after going through the mill two more times, but suffice to say it looked much better. It was far from flour, but much finer than the first attempt. I'd like to go finer but I don't think my LHBS mill will allow for it, which is a bummer. I may have to invest in my own mill sooner than I thought.

My first brew is in the fermenter cooling down waiting to pitch the yeast. I had purchased a pH meter to check my mash pH, but when I tried to calibrate it last night I found out it was a dud. Started with 7.35 gallons on this batch, added 5g gypsum, 1g CaCl, and 2mL 88% lactic acid. Hopefully that got me close.

 

[cannman]

I'd like to see the link to your source. I'd posit that roller mills to minimize husk shredding are more about needing the intact husks (and larger grits) to keep loose enough grain beds in traditional lauter tuns, in order to prevent stuck run-offs.



There are lots of BIABers on HBT who use "Corona" style mills to grind to (near) flour, shredding husks in the process. I don't see them complaining about astringency.



Brew on

I was a corona biab brewer for years! And then I went competitive. When the score sheets came back the same "astringent", I looked into my process, did some research, and made the improvements.

I hope you're not too resistant to changing your opinion based on new information. I hope this helps and I'm glad I could introduce the concept for further self research:

http://beersmith.com/blog/2015/10/2...ains-oversparging-and-hot-sparging-your-beer/

https://beerandbrewing.com/VJihvSsAALkq3TOm/article/off-flavor-of-the-week-astringency

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-4/is-my-beer-ruined/common-off-flavors

 

[Epos7]

The numbers are in, and efficiency wasn't great for the first batch. It's hard to estimate exactly how much wort I collected in the fermenter, but I think brewhouse efficiency is in the 55-60% range. Just the first attempt, so I'm not worried. I'm hopeful it will still taste good

I think I may need to go finer on the crush, but I don't think the mill at my LHBS will allow it. The other possibility is I need to insulate my kettle better during the mash. I was shooting for 152F, initial temperature settled in at 153F about 2 minutes after mash in, and mash finished at 148F. I had a blanket over the kettle, and it was a hot day, but I may have to figure out how to insulate it better.

 

[cbier60]

Stir your mash well a few times, and that will do more for your efficiency than anything else. I just got a pH meter recently, and just confirmed that my mineral adjustments using Brun Water are pretty accurate. So even w/o a meter, make your water adjustments for proper mash pH and beer attributes. I BIAB and set my crush for most grains at 0.039 and get great efficiency w/o excess trub. I disagree with the recommendations to grind to flour. A LHBS gap may typically be set at something like 0.050, so the double grind is probably pretty good.

Finally, the 5F drop in temp probably won't hurt too much unless it occurred too quickly. It certainly doesn't hurt your efficiency, since the lower temp results in more fermentable wort and thus a drier finish. Just improve your insulation in the future.

 

[doug293cz]

I was a corona biab brewer for years! And then I went competitive. When the score sheets came back the same "astringent", I looked into my process, did some research, and made the improvements.

I hope you're not too resistant to changing your opinion based on new information. I hope this helps and I'm glad I could introduce the concept for further self research:

http://beersmith.com/blog/2015/10/2...ains-oversparging-and-hot-sparging-your-beer/

https://beerandbrewing.com/VJihvSsAALkq3TOm/article/off-flavor-of-the-week-astringency

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-4/is-my-beer-ruined/common-off-flavors

Thanks for posting the links, but I don't find them the least bit compelling. The Beer & Brewing link doesn't even mention crush.

The dated, on-line version of "How to Brew" does not mention shredded husks in the astringency section. It does mention them in the "Husky/Grainy" section saying that shredded husks make extraction of these flavors more probable, but that to control them you should control the pH, not avoid fine crushes. I looked around in the printed, 3rd edition of "How to Brew" for what it says about tannins and astringency, but have not found anywhere where it connects them with fine grinds.

The BeerSmith article just repeats some of the same old wives tales as lots of other mass audience articles. For example, it also says that excessive mash/sparge temp can cause tannin extraction and astringency. If it were true that high temp alone could extract tannins, then all decocted beers would be astringent. They aren't because you need high pH in combination with high temp to extract tannins. Likewise you need high pH to extract excess tannins from shredded husks.

I am perfectly willing to adjust my thinking if presented with information that is actually authoritative.

Brew on

 

[cannman]

I am perfectly willing to adjust my thinking if presented with information that is actually authoritative.

And there in lies the problem with our hobby. How much of the information you know about brewing came from and was learned from authoritative texts? My guess is very little because only fairly recently has this industry started to evolve into a subject that demands values obtained using the scientific method. Most of the data of everything we do here has historically been an art. Even the experiments written early on by Dr. Charlie Bamforth and Charlie Papazian are first person accounts yet they have set the standards which we are all guilty of using. So what authoritative text would satisfy you? "Husks have tannins" should be enough for any reasonable person to realize, "oh, I guess I should handle with care and not go hog-wild with my mill."

 

[doug293cz]

And there in lies the problem with our hobby. How much of the information you know about brewing came from and was learned from authoritative texts? My guess is very little because only fairly recently has this industry started to evolve into a subject that demands values obtained using the scientific method. Most of the data of everything we do here has historically been an art. Even the experiments written early on by Dr. Charlie Bamforth and Charlie Papazian are first person accounts yet they have set the standards which we are all guilty of using. So what authoritative text would satisfy you? "Husks have tannins" should be enough for any reasonable person to realize, "oh, I guess I should handle with care and not go hog-wild with my mill."

Yes husks have tannins. I never said they didn't. What I said was that excessive tannin extraction is primarily due to high pH, often in conjunction with high temperatures. The husks are very thin to start with, so it's easy for water to diffuse into, and components to diffuse out of them. They don't need to be shredded for this to occur. So, there has to be some controlling factor(s) that determines whether or not tannins diffuse out. The success of decoctions says that temperature alone does not cause excessive tannin extraction. The success of commercial breweries that pulverize their grain says excessive tannins are not caused by fine grind alone.

To convince me that grind is an important determinant of tannin extraction, I would need an explanation of what the breweries mentioned in the last paragraph are required to do (other than control pH) to avoid tannin extraction in spite of their pulverized grain. A peer reviewed experimental study (with no obvious flaws) would also be sufficient.

Brew on

 

[Epos7]

Stir your mash well a few times, and that will do more for your efficiency than anything else. I just got a pH meter recently, and just confirmed that my mineral adjustments using Brun Water are pretty accurate. So even w/o a meter, make your water adjustments for proper mash pH and beer attributes. I BIAB and set my crush for most grains at 0.039 and get great efficiency w/o excess trub. I disagree with the recommendations to grind to flour. A LHBS gap may typically be set at something like 0.050, so the double grind is probably pretty good.

Finally, the 5F drop in temp probably won't hurt too much unless it occurred too quickly. It certainly doesn't hurt your efficiency, since the lower temp results in more fermentable wort and thus a drier finish. Just improve your insulation in the future.

I did stir the mash pretty well a few times, so I think it really comes down to the fineness of the crush. One issue with stirring is that every time you remove the lid and start stirring, you're going to lose some heat from your mash. Due to this I tried not to go overboard with the stirring.

 

[Morrey]

I have no idea of your budget, so please don't think this is insensitive of me to suggest you look into purchasing your own grain mill.

I put a grain mill higher on my equipment list than other items I could get by with. I bought a Kegco 3 roller mill for $140 inc shipping and cannot tell you the pleasure I get from it. My efficiency numbers have skyrocketed compared to the numbers I was getting from grinds at my LHBS. Frankly, I think their rollers were almost shot.

I now buy base malts in the 50/55# bags and save lots of $$ by doing so. It only takes a few minutes to grind a grain bill, but that is one of my favorite parts of the brewing process.

 

[Morrey]

The numbers are in, and efficiency wasn't great for the first batch. It's hard to estimate exactly how much wort I collected in the fermenter, but I think brewhouse efficiency is in the 55-60% range. Just the first attempt, so I'm not worried. I'm hopeful it will still taste good

I think I may need to go finer on the crush, but I don't think the mill at my LHBS will allow it. The other possibility is I need to insulate my kettle better during the mash. I was shooting for 152F, initial temperature settled in at 153F about 2 minutes after mash in, and mash finished at 148F. I had a blanket over the kettle, and it was a hot day, but I may have to figure out how to insulate it better.

I'd bank on the grind being responsible rather than the mash temps, which were in your case, on the right temp. Provided you had your mash ph around 5.5, and I'll assume you did based on your water additions, you seemed set.

Get that grind tighter and you'll be set my friend! BIAB is very flexible in that regard.

 

[Epos7]

Thanks for the input Morrey! I thought I could use the mill at my LHBS, so I didn't include a mill in my budget, but now that I'm getting some efficiency numbers back, I'm thinking that budget may have to be adjusted

I've been researching mills for the last few days, I'll probably pick one up within the next week or so, and try brewing this same recipe a second time with a finer crush to see if I can get those efficiency numbers up!

 

[doug293cz]

Thanks for the input Morrey! I thought I could use the mill at my LHBS, so I didn't include a mill in my budget, but now that I'm getting some efficiency numbers back, I'm thinking that budget may have to be adjusted

I've been researching mills for the last few days, I'll probably pick one up within the next week or so, and try brewing this same recipe a second time with a finer crush to see if I can get those efficiency numbers up!

If you are going to get a mill, the Kegco 3 roller seems to be the best bang for the buck available right now. I have heard that if you call them and ask about discounts, you can get a better deal than list price.

Brew on

 

[Morrey]

If you are going to get a mill, the Kegco 3 roller seems to be the best bang for the buck available right now. I have heard that if you call them and ask about discounts, you can get a better deal than list price.

Brew on

Second that, Doug. Not saying the Kegco is the best deal because I have one, but a 3 roller mill gives you an awesome crush with one pass. I bought mine from Beverage Factory, and including discounts (simply ask for discounts) and free shipping, came to $140. Be mindful this drive shaft takes a 1/2" chucked drill, and I thought it was 3/8" which wont work. Typical 3 roller mills can cost upward of over twice the price of this Kegco. The quality of mine is outstanding.

I think most mills at LHBS get used so much they simply wear out. The knurls on the rollers wear down and don't grip the grains as well. There is nothing better than controlling your own process which includes the grind.

 

[Black Island Brewer]

For BIAB, you might want to explore @wilserbrewer 's Ugly Junk Corona Mill build. For $35 or less you could make a one-pass mill that will give you flour and, for me, 80% efficiency.

 

[VT_jlee]

Thanks for the input Morrey! I thought I could use the mill at my LHBS, so I didn't include a mill in my budget, but now that I'm getting some efficiency numbers back, I'm thinking that budget may have to be adjusted

I've been researching mills for the last few days, I'll probably pick one up within the next week or so, and try brewing this same recipe a second time with a finer crush to see if I can get those efficiency numbers up!

I use the Cereal Crusher grain mill set to 0.30 and get around 75%-80%. I rechecked the mill a few weeks ago and last 2 brews were 78% spot on.

 

[Epos7]

Thanks all, currently doing mill research Looking into the Kegco, Crankandstein, and Monster mills.