Best way to get OG up to 1.180?

[kaj030201]

Probably an experiment far too advanced for my skills, but I will be step-up fermenting an imperial stout to eventually get it up to about 18% ABV. I will start off with a wort that will produce about 8-9% ABV, let it ferment for a day or two, then add concentrated wort to the fermenter. The question is:

What concentration does the wort being added need to be to achieve 18%? Would I need to add a gallon of 28% wort to average out to 18%, or would 3 or 4 additions of a quart of 11% wort ramp me up enough? Thanks!

 

[WBC]

Probably an experiment far too advanced for my skills, but I will be step-up fermenting an imperial stout to eventually get it up to about 18% ABV. I will start off with a wort that will produce about 8-9% ABV, let it ferment for a day or two, then add concentrated wort to the fermenter. The question is:

What concentration does the wort being added need to be to achieve 18%? Would I need to add a gallon of 28% wort to average out to 18%, or would 3 or 4 additions of a quart of 11% wort ramp me up enough? Thanks!

I hope your yeast is up to the task?

 

[sirsloop]

geez... you using WLP099 or something? As per their website, start with a 6-8% capable wort (1.070ish), and add a fractional amount of sugars after that until you reach your desired amount. You'll need to start off with a smaller amount of wort and work your way up to your desired final volume.

I'm assuming that means doing a partial boil where the SG of the wort is much higher than 1.180 before adding in water. Then you figure out how much water you need to bring like 1/3rd of that wort to 1.070, mix togehter, and pitch. Store the rest of the wort in the fridge overnight. The next day take 1/5th of the wort and 1/5th of the remaining water needed, mix, and add. Repeat each day until all of the wort and water is in the primary. Yes you are going to need a MONSTER starter for this. Like... brew a batch of beer using WLP099 and use that 5 gallon cake as your starter.

 

[Evan!]

You definitely need to ramp up, and you definitely need to use the WLP099 Super High Gravity yeast. What I would recommend, actually, is fermenting a small beer (<1.060) the week prior, racking that off, and dumping the new wort directly onto the cake. The most important thing to remember is that the worst thing the yeast deals with is the pressure from the high gravity. The high alcohol is secondary to that. So by adding portions of the wort during fermentation and letting each addition ferment out for awhile, you keep the gravity at any point relatively low. Also, I'd use a good portion of dextrose, because it ferments out cleanly and easily.

Also note that the WLP099 is a funny little bugger. For whatever reason, beers fermented with it tend not to release the resultant co2 from solution as easily as normal. As a result, you will need to agitate the wort during fermentation to expel this co2. When you do this, be prepared to see airlock activity like you've never seen before. It will be so furious that the airlock liquid will literally spray out of the top of the airlock. It's wild.

Lastly, oxygenate the hell out of the wort, and you'll probably benefit from oxygenating it at intervals during fermentation.

I wish you luck on this. I planned out my Mephistopheles down to the tiny detail, and was only able to reach 15%

 

[blacklab]

Probably an experiment far too advanced for my skills, but I will be step-up fermenting an imperial stout to eventually get it up to about 18% ABV. I will start off with a wort that will produce about 8-9% ABV, let it ferment for a day or two, then add concentrated wort to the fermenter. The question is:

What concentration does the wort being added need to be to achieve 18%? Would I need to add a gallon of 28% wort to average out to 18%, or would 3 or 4 additions of a quart of 11% wort ramp me up enough? Thanks!

Have you read this article?

http://www.byo.com/feature/1556.html

He goes through a similiar process to what you are describing. Good luck!

 

[kaj030201]

Have you read this article?

http://www.byo.com/feature/1556.html

He goes through a similiar process to what you are describing. Good luck!

I have read the article, and it sounds like that guy really went through a lot of trouble to produce a beer that I'm sure was very interesting. I have considered a few of his techiques and will implement them as I see fit. I believe that my ideas are sound, I am just not sure about the mathematics of the whole thing. I still haven't discovered if I need to add a super-concentrated wort (28%) or many 11%additions. Please help!!!
And BTW, I will be using 2 vials WLP099 made into 2 seperate 1 gallon starters, 1 added at the beginning, and one added after the final concentrated wort addition (day 5).

 

[flowerysong]

I still haven't discovered if I need to add a super-concentrated wort (28%) or many 11%additions. Please help!!!

Maybe people would help if they could understand what you were asking. Wort gravity is generally stated in degrees Plato or (more commonly in homebrewing) specific gravity points as measured by a hydrometer. I have no idea what you mean by a "28% wort".

However, as a general statement: if you're trying for 18% ABV and start out with four gallons of wort that will ferment out to 8% ABV, the gallon or so of additional wort that you add will need to have an OG a fair bit higher than the actual cumulative OG that you're trying for.

 

[sirsloop]

Have you read this article?

http://www.byo.com/feature/1556.html

SWEET! (HAR HAR HAR!)

 

[sirsloop]

I have read the article, and it sounds like that guy really went through a lot of trouble to produce a beer that I'm sure was very interesting. I have considered a few of his techiques and will implement them as I see fit. I believe that my ideas are sound, I am just not sure about the mathematics of the whole thing. I still haven't discovered if I need to add a super-concentrated wort (28%) or many 11%additions. Please help!!!
And BTW, I will be using 2 vials WLP099 made into 2 seperate 1 gallon starters, 1 added at the beginning, and one added after the final concentrated wort addition (day 5).

Why not make a 5 gallon pale ale using WLP099 and simply pitch on the cake? If you wanted to make more yeast on top of that, harvest some of the cake and make extra starters on top of that?

 

[flowerysong]

However, as a general statement: if you're trying for 18% ABV and start out with four gallons of wort that will ferment out to 8% ABV, the gallon or so of additional wort that you add will need to have an OG a fair bit higher than the actual cumulative OG that you're trying for.

To expand on this a bit: say you plan to do it in three steps, ending up with a cumulative OG of 1.180. You start by making 4 gallons of 1.080 wort and letting it ferment to the 1/2 sugar break. For the second step, we want to bump the volume to 4.75 gallons and the cumulative OG to 1.130.

The 4 original gallons contributes around 67 gravity points ((4 * 80) / 4.75) in a 4.75 gallon volume, so we need the .75 additional gallons to contribute 63. (4.75 * 63) / .75 = 399, so the added wort would need to have an SG of 1.399.

We let it ferment out a bit more, and do our final step to bump the volume to 5.5 gallons and the cumulative OG to 1.180.

The 4.75 gallons contributes (4.75 * 130) / 5.5 gravity points, so 112. We need an additional 68 points, so this addition is going to be even denser than the last. (5.5 * 68) / .75 ~= 499.

Those additions are crazy thick. Personally, I'd probably start with a higher gravity (I'm thinking at a minimum 1.120) wort at the beginning to keep the gravity of the wort additions slightly more reasonable.

 

[Funkenjaeger]

Those additions are crazy thick. Personally, I'd probably start with a higher gravity (I'm thinking at a minimum 1.120) wort at the beginning to keep the gravity of the wort additions slightly more reasonable.

Yes, but you'd be shooting yourself in the foot by starting out with 4 gallons and only giving yourself the remaining gallon in which to bump the cumulative OG the rest of the way up. As in the BYO article linked above, it seems much wiser to start with a MUCH smaller amount of initial lower-gravity wort (like 1 gallon) and build up to your target cumulative OG over the course of the remaining 4 gallons which are added in quart-sized increments over the course of several weeks.

Your explanation of the calculations seems sound though. Essentially you're running a weighted average of the gravity points and volume of each addition to achieve your target 'cumulative' OG.

It sounds like the OP was SORT of on the right track with the averaging concept, but way off with the specification of wort by ABV instead of gravity.

 

[sirsloop]

Yeah, you're way better off starting with like 1.5 gallons of 1.070, then you have PLENTY of room in the future to get up to 1.080. You can do it this way:

-Make a 4 gallon batch of 1.230 wort (SG). If you added gallon of water to that you would end up at ~1.184 (which if roughly your desired OG at 5 gallons)
-Mix the 1 gallon of water with 1/2 gallon of the wort. That *should* give you an OG for your first step thats 1.076.
-Pitch that on a cake and let it ferment say down to 1.030.
-Add another half gallon of 1.230 wort to that 1.030 beer and you'll get a new OG of 1.080.
-Keep repeating that process and eventually all of your wort will be gone and you'll end up with a lower overall specific gravity in your primary.

If your hydrometer doesn't go up to 1.230, then add water preboil until its in range of your hydrometer, and then boil it off. This isnt all the math you need to do, but it can give you an idea on about how you can measure out the wort and water landing you the right gravity levels.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

This is a cool project. Keep us posted

 

[foxtrot]

18% ABV? Jeez, just add your favorite hard stuff to the bottling bucket!

 

[z987k]

I'd also mash as low as possible.

 

[Danek]

Speaking personally, I'd rather have three batches of 5% beer than one batch of 15% beer, but it's really interesting learning about how you'd go about brewing big.
Good luck with it.

 

[kaj030201]

I'd also mash as low as possible.

hmmm... thats something i've yet to consider. why do you say this?

 

[Danek]

hmmm... thats something i've yet to consider. why do you say this?

Mashing at a higher temperature yields a greater proportion of non-fermentable sugars - this gives the beer a sweeter finish, as the yeasties can't eat those sugars. Final gravity is therefore higher, and alcohol content is slightly lower.

Conversely, mashing at the low end of the temperature range gives a more fermentable wort, and gives the beer a slightly drier finish, as it yields a greater proportion of fermentable sugars. Yeasties can eat more of those sugars - thus the final beer is slightly less sweet and the alcohol content is slightly higher.

 

[kaj030201]

Mashing at a higher temperature yields a greater proportion of non-fermentable sugars - this gives the beer a sweeter finish, as the yeasties can't eat those sugars. Final gravity is therefore higher, and alcohol content is slightly lower.

Conversely, mashing at the low end of the temperature range gives a more fermentable wort, and gives the beer a slightly drier finish, as it yields a greater proportion of fermentable sugars. Yeasties can eat more of those sugars - thus the final beer is slightly less sweet and the alcohol content is slightly higher.

well that sounds like it makes a lot of sense. is 152 deg. too low for mashing? maybe even 148 for like 2-3 hours?

 

[z987k]

I'd go for 148. Your still going to have some non-fermentables, and I would imagine having the lowest chain sugars possible would aid the yeast in converting to alcohol.

actually this thread got me to thinking if I could pull something like this off. Just purely to see if I can. If it turns out good thats a bonus.

 

[sirsloop]

Speaking personally, I'd rather have three batches of 5% beer than one batch of 15% beer, but it's really interesting learning about how you'd go about brewing big.
Good luck with it.

I think if you are making a 15% beer you already have a stock pile of 5% beer read to drink. I just made a 10.5% beer and like 7 gallons of mead.. but I have a crap load of stuff to drink while it ages.

 

[kaj030201]

you know what i just realized... this whole time my thread title was incorrectly worded. FG should have been OG. duh!

 

[sirsloop]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned it before... I noticed it right off the bat but knew what you were talking about. I guess it goes to show that people on this forum aren't out to get a cheap shot

 

[kaj030201]

well I started off with 2 gallons ringing in at ~1.125 and i let it ferment for 2 days. the first addition was 6 cups of water with 5 cups of DME, roughly 1.222. Three days later was 6 cups water with 3 cups DME and 1lb. dark candi sugar, about 1.257. Three days later I sampled the wort and it was all the way down to 1.060!! So I added 4 cups water and 4 cups DME, about 1.263. According to my calcs, that leaves me with a rough OG of 1.165 (or about 41 degrees PLATO)
So, I'm almost there!! But my next question- whats the best way to get down to a FG of about 1.040? I am afraid its going to poop out at 1.060 or so. Can I just keep adding yeast energizer? Do I re-aerate?

 

[landhoney]

But my next question- whats the best way to get down to a FG of about 1.040? I am afraid its going to poop out at 1.060 or so. Can I just keep adding yeast energizer? Do I re-aerate?

The best way is follow whitelabs instructions for the yeast, in this case they want you to do the additions everyday for five days and aerate each day as well. This worked for my 1.190 wort, which finished at 1.036....the bottles haven't carbed, and may never, but at least it finished up. I'd aerate it and hope for the best, I'm not sure what else you can do.

 

[kaj030201]

the bottles haven't carbed, and may never, but at least it finished up. I'd aerate it and hope for the best, I'm not sure what else you can do.

well it seems to be doing fine so far. i think i will stop the additions now since this last addition has the airlock bubbling much more slowly than it has the first few days. but i hadn't thought much about carbonating-i suspect the yeast would be all but dead after 8 months of aging. do you think i should repitch a vial of wlp099 at the end of the 8 months right before bottling? how do you plan on carbonating yours??

 

[landhoney]

well it seems to be doing fine so far. i think i will stop the additions now since this last addition has the airlock bubbling much more slowly than it has the first few days. but i hadn't thought much about carbonating-i suspect the yeast would be all but dead after 8 months of aging. do you think i should repitch a vial of wlp099 at the end of the 8 months right before bottling? how do you plan on carbonating yours??

I plan on brewing it again at a slightly lower ABV and hope it carbs next time(I think I can improve the recipe/beer as well). I did not bulk age for a long period for the reason you indicate. I don't think adding fresh yeast to a 18% beer would work. My plan, as with my other(non-sour) big beers, is to bottle early and not worry about adding fresh yeast to carb, and then bottle age for months,years+. Mine was pushing 20% ABV, so you might be alright.
Also, I haven't had one in a few months, so it may be carbed by now, but I doubt it.