Best mash time and temperature?
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I mashed a Smoked Robust Porter last weekend for 35 minutes at 154. I was shooting for 1.066. I hit 1.066 exactly. I don't think that, in normal circumstances, even 60 is necessary. I've cut my mash times on regular beers down to 35-45 minutes, and haven't noticed any difference.
I'm one of the rare few who agree completely with lumpher. For the past 7 or 8 years I have mashed everything at about 148-152 F (64-67 C) for just 40 minutes. Years ago I ran a long series of experiments to prove to myself that 30 minutes was not long enough to mash, 35 minutes was just about the threshold, and 40 minutes is long enough for everything. The mash time has nothing to do with conversion or efficiency, but has everything to do with fermentability/attenuation. If you like good attenuation at minimal mash times, you'll love the 40-minute mash. Saves you time. Or if you're lazy, you can go longer, but there's no major benefits on efficiency or fermentability beyond the 40-minute mark in my experience. Try and you'll see.
The only time I mash for a longer time is with Munich based beers, due to the low enzyme content, and for saisons where I want the fermentability to max out with final gravity close to 1.000.
The only time I mash for a longer time is with Munich based beers, due to the low enzyme content, and for saisons where I want the fermentability to max out with final gravity close to 1.000.
Mash temperature depends on the particular beer style you're brewing.
Take a few minutes and read this article on mash temps and the enzymes involved.
http://homebrewmanual.com/mash-temperatures/
I will chime in on this as I have done both batch and recirc/fly sparging on my e-HERMS system..
Here are my results..
Batch Sparging time - I typically go with 60 mins for normal grav beers mash-wise. For higher grav beers, I will let it go to 90 mins just to make sure I am getting the most out of my grains with the amount of water/grains in the cooler/pot.
Fly Sparging - I typically go 90 mins on the mash with recircing the wort and a SLOW fly sparge for close to another 45-60mins. Makes for a longer brew day, but the efficiency is through the roof with fly sparging slowly on my E-HERMS system so the payoff is less grains to buy (which I like).
Temps: If you want more fermentables in the wort for the yeast to snack on, stick with a 152-155 temp. This usually gives you the best conversion rate. I usually target this temp for all my styles except my stouts and IIPAs.
If you want to sweeten the final beer up more or give it more of a mouthfeel punch, mash in a bit higher (156->159) on the temp. It will cause more of the sugars being converted to be unfermentable meaning the beer will be fuller and sweeter as an end product, but the trade-off of the higher mash temps means a higher FG which ultimately leads to a lower ABV due to the unfermentables mashing higher yields. I always mash higher for all my stouts and IIPAs as to me, it gives the beer a bit more body and just a fuller mouthfeel and much silkier finish. I always adjust my grain bill for this higher temp mash so I hit my ABV targets, but still achieve the end result from a body/mouthfeel that I am looking for on these beers in particular.
Dialing in your water profile is also a very key component of getting the most out of your mash as well..Make sure you are hitting your PH targets as once I was able to master my water/PH, I can pretty much know exactly how to adjust the mash temps to dial in the beer to the point I know exactly what the final beer profile will taste like in the glass from the first runnings.
:fro:
Here are my results..
Batch Sparging time - I typically go with 60 mins for normal grav beers mash-wise. For higher grav beers, I will let it go to 90 mins just to make sure I am getting the most out of my grains with the amount of water/grains in the cooler/pot.
Fly Sparging - I typically go 90 mins on the mash with recircing the wort and a SLOW fly sparge for close to another 45-60mins. Makes for a longer brew day, but the efficiency is through the roof with fly sparging slowly on my E-HERMS system so the payoff is less grains to buy (which I like).
Temps: If you want more fermentables in the wort for the yeast to snack on, stick with a 152-155 temp. This usually gives you the best conversion rate. I usually target this temp for all my styles except my stouts and IIPAs.
If you want to sweeten the final beer up more or give it more of a mouthfeel punch, mash in a bit higher (156->159) on the temp. It will cause more of the sugars being converted to be unfermentable meaning the beer will be fuller and sweeter as an end product, but the trade-off of the higher mash temps means a higher FG which ultimately leads to a lower ABV due to the unfermentables mashing higher yields. I always mash higher for all my stouts and IIPAs as to me, it gives the beer a bit more body and just a fuller mouthfeel and much silkier finish. I always adjust my grain bill for this higher temp mash so I hit my ABV targets, but still achieve the end result from a body/mouthfeel that I am looking for on these beers in particular.
Dialing in your water profile is also a very key component of getting the most out of your mash as well..Make sure you are hitting your PH targets as once I was able to master my water/PH, I can pretty much know exactly how to adjust the mash temps to dial in the beer to the point I know exactly what the final beer profile will taste like in the glass from the first runnings.
:fro:
I will disagree with the previous posters who stated that mash time has little to do with efficiency. Crush size has a significant affect on how long it takes to gelatinize the starch in the center of the grits (gelatinization proceeds from the outside in.) Once the starch is gelatinized, saccharification proceeds quite quickly. With a fine enough crush, you can get complete conversion in less than 30 minutes. With courser crushes you may need 60 to 90 minutes. If you don't mash long enough to gelatinize all of the starch, your conversion efficiency will suffer. HBT is full of threads by brewers suffering from poor conversion efficiency because they don't mash long enough for the coarseness of their crush. If the brewer has the capability to crush finer, that is often the easiest fix for low efficiency. If they can't control their crush size, then a longer mash, or accepting the lower efficiency are the other options.
Brew on
Brew on
Doug, we are not in disagreement. You just happen to be the first person to bring up the crush as an important variable. You are correct -- the quality of the crush is the single most important thing to master for mash quality and efficiency before you start to concern yourself with mash times.
When in doubt, crush harder. If you do not see the efficiency you want, crush harder. Crush twice and that will help as well.
The advice in my previous post assumes the basic premise that you aren't doing a crappy job crushing the grains. Perhaps that truly was too great a leap of faith.
Thanks everyone for your answers.
For the moment, I buy crushed grains, so I will mash a little longer.
One more question:
What would be the result if I mash 60 minutes at 152-155 and then take it to 156-159 for 30 more minutes? Will it be correct for a stout for example? I'm looking for a sweet, good mouthfeel beer.
Thanks again!
For the moment, I buy crushed grains, so I will mash a little longer.
One more question:
What would be the result if I mash 60 minutes at 152-155 and then take it to 156-159 for 30 more minutes? Will it be correct for a stout for example? I'm looking for a sweet, good mouthfeel beer.
Thanks again!
I would also agree with the crush having a large effect on efficiency..I noticed once I started crushing my own grain, I was able to again, get better at dialing in my beers. My LHBS crush was not consistent as they allowed the public to tinker with the crusher settings (they also allow folks to pull their own grain) so you never knew what crush you were going to get and it was throwing off my efficiency.
A grain crusher is a wise investment in my opinion to helping dial in efficiency.
A grain crusher is a wise investment in my opinion to helping dial in efficiency.
No point in that mash schedule. The second step wont do anything really after 60min. For a normal mash, pick a temp from about 146 to 156. The higher, the more body and residual sweetness. For a stout, id try 154-155. At the end, you can do a mashout if you want to kill the enzymes and lock in the sugar profile. Do this around 168 for 10-15min
I actually disagree with 152-155 for the most fermentables in the wort. If you want more fermentables in the wort, keep the temps lower in the high 140s so you have more beta amylase activity that breaks down wort into single sugars.
Regardless, if you want a sweeter beer with a thicker body (such as a stout), keep the temps higher, around 154-156. If you start at say 152 for an hour, you've already allowed the enzymes to break down the starches into many simple sugars, so then adding an extra half hour at a higher temp can only further break down the starch into more sugars. Amylases only break down starches, they don't build them back up. If you want a thicker mouth feel and a sweeter beer, you need to create more unfermentables. This is done with higher temps, which create less beta amylase activity (and, of course, the specific types of malts in the recipe).
Did you read that link I posted earlier?
IMO, the best way to brew is to know why you're doing each step. You can certainly just follow recipes and know that you need higher temps for stout mashes, and lower temps for saisons, etc. However, learning what the higher and lower temps mean biochemically is much more satisfying, and the knowledge behind it makes you a better brewer.
I do15 min mini mashes myself. Iodine test and start the re-circulation for clearing the wort. I do like to recirculate for a little longer than most at 100% full open to REALLY set that bed. But by the time I do all that I have mashed for real close to 30 min. I don't do a mash out so things continue to convert as I am starting my fly sparge and running to the boiler. I like to do back to back batches on my system so as soon as I am out of the MLT I can mash back in again. The second batch will normally have to stay in the MLT for about an hour while I am still in the boiler. I just always do my BIG beers last and just let them set. My experience has been very positive both in efficiency and final gravity with my beers. Temps are a whole other thing altogether. Mash a the temps designed for the beer style. Lower mash temps lower FG Higher mash temps Higher FG.
Cheers
Jay
Cheers
Jay
If you want more sweetness and mouthfeel, then the 40-minute mash is ideal, or try going even lower to just 30 minutes. You should mash for LESS time, NOT MORE!
?
You know time isn't the only variable on hand, right? Alpha amylase activity peaks around 158F and will help break down larger starch molecules to polysaccharides (providing body and mouthfeel) at higher temperatures. At those temperatures beta amylase is pretty much inert.
I usually perform a hochkurz mash -- 30 minutes at 142-145 and 30 minutes at 154-158. Works wonders for pretty much every beer style, and it's not too much trouble to perform.
Your mash schedule would work well. The OP's schedule, all from low 150s to 159 over 90 minutes..... I think the beta amylase will break it down too much at the initial 60 minutes at 152-155 F, hurting the "sweetness" and body that he wants.
My schedule is the fastest, easiest, and plenty effective...... assuming the grains are crushed well.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
now you are assuming that finer crush is always better. The reality of that is we all have different systems and methods and with some a fine crush has negative tradeoffs... I for one use a course crush and mash for 60 minutes.. with my recirculation method and small pumps it works well And I have never needed to use rice hulls I also average between around 80% efficiency which works well for me.
Cool. You are very correct. There are exceptions to every rule under the sun... especially rules of thumb. I should take greater care to expose all assumptions when presenting advice.
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