Berliner Weisse lacto experiement #3

[Hommel]

Just wrapped up another lacto experiment. I tested these three sources this time:

1> Natures Bounty Acidophilus Pills

2> Wyeast 5335

3> Solaray Acidopholus Pills

I also did a big late hop to see how that worked in a BW.

Full write up here:

http://www.hommelhomebrew.com/?p=129

 

[Oldsock]

A friend (Matt/drabmuh) and I have a similar experiment in the most recent BYO with L. brevis, L. delbrueckii, L. plantarum, and L. buchneri. 5335 seemed to be the most temperature sensitive, at best we got it to about where you did, but at some temperatures it struggled to get much below 4.0.

 

[Hommel]

Good to hear you got similar results...or maybe not since the results weren't that stellar I was hoping that my first run with 5335 didn't sour very aggressively since I underpitched and that my second run didn't because it froze in transit but with this third test and your results it sounds like wyeast's delbrueckii isn't very aggressive at souring. I saw much faster acid production with both white labs "delbrueckii" (quotes since its heterofermentative) and brevis. i haven't tested wyeast's brevis yet so when i can get my hands on it again i'll run that through the same experiment.

do you know of any other commercially available pure lacto pitches? most of the other stuff I see is mixed cultures, not pure lacto.

 

[Oldsock]

5335 is L. buchneri as far as I'm aware. We actually got better results with it than WLP677 (which echos my own experiences and frequent emails I get). The L. plantarum was one of the isolates from Omega's Lacto Blend. South Yeast sells a couple Lacto isolates, not sure what species they are though.

 

[stpug]

Why were test batches #1 and #2 dumped? Was it simply because you wanted to continue the remaining experiment with the most sour test batch or had those developed other (negative) characteristics? Just wondering.

I understand the basic difference between homo- and heterofermentative lacto strains, but what I don't understand is if one is preferential over the other. I guess if you'll be boiling the soured wort then you'll want to avoid hetero strains, but are there other well-known reasons I'm overlooking. Any insight into this choice, from your perspective, is appreciated.

Cheers! And thanks for sharing your experiments with us - I like your presentation and data collection methods.

 

[Hommel]

Thanks for the clarification Michael. Interesting. I guess I'm confused because in your earlier post you said you struggled to get it below a pH of 4.0. I'm excited to get my new BYO in the mail to see the details! I'll check out the other labs strains.

 

[Oldsock]

Thanks for the clarification Michael. Interesting. I guess I'm confused because in your earlier post you said you struggled to get it below a pH of 4.0. I'm excited to get my new BYO in the mail to see the details! I'll check out the other labs strains.

Better is relative, neither L. buchneri nor L. delbrueckii performed particularly well under ideal conditions.

 

[Hommel]

Hey St. Pug. During these experiments I dump batches that either get nasty or don't sour enough. Batch 1 and 2 were totally clean but they didn't get nearly sour enough for a BW. I could let them sit for months to see where they go but I want to make BWs fast hence the 2 week test window. Of all the tests I've done the only one that got nasty was the 2-row in experiment 1 but i've had multiple that didn't get substantially sour.

The only difference that I can see in homo vs hetero is alcohol and CO2 production for hetero. I haven't seen a substantial flavor difference. I would like to make Berliner Weisse that can be put on tap without fear of infecting the line hence the desire to boil post souring. With hetero you would end up boiling off a good chunk of the alcohol in the process. But finding a homofermentative strain that sours aggressively has been a struggle outside of some success with probiotic strains.

On a side note, that makes me wondering what all the breweries who kettle sour by throwing in some grain and then boiling are doing to ensure a certain alcohol level. Does anyone do this?

 

[azazel1024]

My one experiment so far was with tossing grain in a 2L erlenmyer to sour it. For some stupid reason I thought it would be agressively sour enough to sour an entire 5.5G batch of BW.

Nope. I did catch a little background flavor, which was nice, but I had to sour with food grade lactic. The straight BW turned out pretty decent in the end and the peach BW (I split the batch, bottled half and then pitched 3lbs of pureed peaches in to what was left in the carboy and aged for 2 weeks) seems to be very good, but I only bottled it 2 days ago, so I haven't tried it carbed and cold yet.

One of the club members did a Kentucky common by doing the exact same thing and it added a nice, but slight, background flavor to it.

I think what I am going to try to do next time is make a 2L starter again, see how it goes and if it coverts clean. If so, I'll crash it and pitch the starter (after saving off a vial) in to my kettle to sour the entire batch for a couple of days, then bring it up to a boil. Frankly, if I lose some alcohol, oh well. I am actually thinking what I might do is make a "strong batch" of Oud Bruin like this. Make it small just to see how the heck it goes.

So I am thinking of this...

2L starter. If it turns out well, cold crash, decant, save off a vial and pitch in to a "full sized starter" of 1.030 DME . "cook it" at 105F for 24-48hrs (to taste). Then bring it to a quick boil, let it cool down to 155F and mash in my grains and then take the batch the "traditional" route from there.

I'll assume I get 50% conversion to alcohol and/or lactic acid on the sour kettling, so I am HOPING that I'll get around 7% ABV in the end with whatever fermentable sugars might possibly be left in the wort, plus what I am introducing in the mash.

 

[azazel1024]

Hommel, what they probably do is take a number of gravity and PH readings. You can calculate how much lactic acid is in the sour wort between the PH reading (pre and post) combined with the gravity reading pre and post. Though you'd also need to know what strain of lacto was going in (hetero or homoformative), or at least a good guess.

You can then work out how much of the sugars the lacto ate, and based off that determine how much malt to add for mashing.

I am not to the point where I am that interested in doing the math, so I am just going to wing it. Worse case I end up with either a 1.055OG equivelent beer that the yeast gets a chance to eat, or a 1.085OG beer. Hopefully it is something in the middle.

Oh, I am also probably with both the 2L starter and the "full volume" starter, reduce the PH with a little lactic acid to begin with, to give the lacotobacillus a bit more of a favorable environment to stater working with.

 

[testingapril]

Nice info. You may want to check out some of the L. Plantarum probiotics, or try some L. Casei or one of the probiotics that has dozens of strains of lacto and other LAB in it.

You could also culture the lacto in yogurt. More info here: http://www.notsoprofessionalbeer.com/2013/09/brewing-with-yogurt.html

 

[Sleepyemt]

Following, I'll be trying the probiotic route for a BW myself.

Has anyone done a side by side with lactic acid vs bacteria? I know it's supposedly not the same, but beyond reading it... Any experience?

 

[chefchris]

Following, I'll be trying the probiotic route for a BW myself.

Has anyone done a side by side with lactic acid vs bacteria? I know it's supposedly not the same, but beyond reading it... Any experience?

I have. It's not terrible, but I wouldn't use lactic acid by itself again. I would consider adding a very small amount to a beer at packaging to boost the acidity a little, but I haven't had to do that yet.

 

[Sleepyemt]

What did you find difference flavor wise chefchris?

 

[kingwood-kid]

On a side note, that makes me wondering what all the breweries who kettle sour by throwing in some grain and then boiling are doing to ensure a certain alcohol level. Does anyone do this?

I kettle sour (ok I use a bucket, but whatever) then pasteurize by heating to 165 or so. Nothing gets boiled at any point of the process, so the alcohol loss is lessened. I don't have the equipment to measure pH or ABV, so I can't tell you what mine are. Maybe I can just keep knocking them back until I'm drunk or get an ulcer.

 

[azazel1024]

What did you find difference flavor wise chefchris?

My extremely limited experience, straight lactic in a beer tastes a bit more straight forward "clean tart" is the way I'd describe it. That produced from bacteria seems a little, rounder. When I tasted my started it had hints of sharp cheddar to it, maybe a little sour dough.

When I diluted food grade lactic acid to roughly the same tartness, I don't really smell/taste that anywhere. Just clean tart.

I just tried a peach BW I bottled a week ago. Peaches deffinitely added something nice to it. I also upped how much lactic I added (because the starter was not nearly enough diluted to 5.5G). I get just the tinniest hint of what the starter had that straight lactic does (BTW, I tried the soured starter next to some boiled water/DME to roughly the same gravity. I realize this isn't an entirely valid test, but I wanted to see myself).

 

[chefchris]

What did you find difference flavor wise chefchris?

It's a night and day difference. The sourness was more rounded in the real version and the lactic acid tasted like you added lactic acid to a clean beer. Like I said, it wasn't bad but I won't do it again. I added raspberry puree to it to help add some acids.