Berliner Weiss, many ways

[Setesh]

I made my first Berliner (first sour of any kind) on Thursday night. I decided to sour my wort instead of my mash as my ferm chambers are only large enough for better bottles so this was the easiest way for me. I'm beginning to wonder if adding hops was a bad idea though. It's been 44 hours and there are no signs of fermentation whatsoever. I've read that Lacto can have a long lag time, so maybe I'm worrying about nothing? Details of everything are below.

Wort:
Mash was 50% white wheat malt, 50% continental pilsner. Multi step mash. 20 at 122, 40 at 148, 30 at 162, 5 at 170. OG was 1.028. Boiled for 20 minutes, 10 minutes of which had 1oz of Saaz hops for a callculated 6 IBU. This was a 7 gallon batch. Wort went into a better bottle, I did not aerate.

Starter:
I pitched a 2L starter I had stepped up twice over 10 days. I purged the headspace with CO2 and installed an airlock. I made the starter with 1.030 sugar solution and a handful of uncrushed MO. After 4 days the starter slowed down and I topped off to 2L with more 1.030 sugar solution. Starter was kept at 110 in my ferm chamber the whole time. Taste of starter was great, smell was good too.

PH of beer is currently 4.2. No signs whatsoever of fermentation and gravity also remains unchanged.

**Edit**
This took off like gangbusters on the 4th day. PH is down to 3.85.

 

[Setesh]

I've done some more reading and came across something interesting I don't remember seeing in this thread:
When you do a grain starter like I did it is best to step up at least twice since the decreasing PH (increasing acidity) will kill a lot of the undesirable bugs. The theory being that the first step will decrease the PH, but not enough to kill a lot of the other undesirables that the second step will kill. This won't kill all undesirables, obviously, but any reduction in the baby diaper and vomit smell/taste imparting bacteria is a plus for sure.

 

[tgmartin000]

I ended up doing my first BW back in March. I did a no boil.

Made a 2l starter of wyeast lacto at 98 degrees. Ran off right from t the mash tun to the fermentor, which was weird. Pitched the starter, for a week at 98. Saw very little activity, so pitched another packet of yeast. At 7 days, pitched a pack of German ale , which finished at about 1.002.

At this point, the beer was full of dms.just disgusting. Nicely tart, with flavor and aroma of cooked corn. So I left it for about two months, and now it's great. No more trace of dms, nice and tart. Will be bottling at 4.5 volumes into champagne bottles. Might fruit some.peaches will be in season soon.

 

[Colorado68]

This is my first sour beer and decided to try the sour mash method.
Did 3 lbs wheat 3lbs pilsner and 8.0z acidulated. Mashed at 149 in 2 1/2 gallons for 60 min. chilled to 110 then threw in a handful of unmilled grains
Just let it sit in my cooler/mash tun and threw some O2 on top.
48 hours later this smells like strong cooked corn, no other nasty smells so I might have lucked out.
Tonight I plan to gather my 1st run then batch sparge at 170, does that sound right? I realize I'm diluting the wort but wasn't trying for a super sour, just noticeably sour. Will boil for 20 min, 5 min with a 1/4 oz citra, chill and pitch S05.
Do you think I should rehydrate the S05 or just sprinkle it directly in the wort like the instructions say?

 

[TopherM]

You are going to need more than 1 packet of S05. You really should have made a big starter. Sacromycese yeast strains HATE the acidity you are about to pitch them in, and they will lag or not work at all in that kind of acidity.

If you want to use S-05, I'd literally do 3-4 packets. Hydrating isn't a big deal either way, but you definitely want to make sure you introduce a bunch of oxygen when you pitch. I stir like a banchee with a big wisk for about 90 seconds.

Good luck!

 

[Colorado68]

You are going to need more than 1 packet of S05. You really should have made a big starter. Sacromycese yeast strains HATE the acidity you are about to pitch them in, and they will lag or not work at all in that kind of acidity.

If you want to use S-05, I'd literally do 3-4 packets. Hydrating isn't a big deal either way, but you definitely want to make sure you introduce a bunch of oxygen when you pitch. I stir like a banchee with a big wisk for about 90 seconds.

Good luck!

Thanks for that tip!
I'll pick up a few more packs on my way home tonight.
I'm not stuck having to use S05 just something I picked after seeing other folks use it.

 

[italarican]

You are going to need more than 1 packet of S05. You really should have made a big starter. Sacromycese yeast strains HATE the acidity you are about to pitch them in, and they will lag or not work at all in that kind of acidity.

If you want to use S-05, I'd literally do 3-4 packets. Hydrating isn't a big deal either way, but you definitely want to make sure you introduce a bunch of oxygen when you pitch. I stir like a banchee with a big wisk for about 90 seconds.

Good luck!

3-4 packets of S-o5 for 6.5 lbs of fermentables? 1 packet should be plenty for that.

Rehydrating not necessary but recommended. As long as you're using pre-boiled water, it won't make your beer worse and can only make it better by getting fermentation started earlier.

 

[dantheman13]

When I've pitched US-05 onto pre-soured wort, I've re-hydrated 1 pack with GoFerm yeast nutrient with very good results. The beer was a BW with no Brett to help with off flavors caused by a stressed Sacch fermentation, and the beer came out sour but otherwise very clean clean. I've also pitched a packet of dried yeast on other non-BW sours on top of old sour yeast cakes, and these have always seemed to ferment a little slower when not re-hydrated with GoFerm. However, the stressed Sacch fermentation (if they were stressed) didn't negatively effect the beer that I noticed. These beers have always been aged with Brettanomyces, however. I agree that 3-4 packs of US-05 isn't necessary either way.

In general now I always try to re-hydrate the US-05 with GoFerm when pitching it into an already soured wort.

 

[McCoy]

I've also successfully fermented out a Berliner weisse that I'd soured with lacto incubated at 100 F (as best as I could) for a week using one rehydrated packet of US-05. I don't think I used yeast nutrient, but it's not a bad idea.

Also, I'm of the opinion that rehydrating does make a big difference. It certainly has an impact on cell viability.

 

[Whalewang]

3-4 packets of S-o5 for 6.5 lbs of fermentables? 1 packet should be plenty for that.

Rehydrating not necessary but recommended. As long as you're using pre-boiled water, it won't make your beer worse and can only make it better by getting fermentation started earlier.

Exactly this. I've done these many of times and have had great success with one pack/6gal.

 

[Colorado68]

Well, I picked up a couple more packets and pitched them before I saw all the posts here (thanks for the suggestions) and it's percolating away in less than 12 hours.

I was a little concerned with some of the growths on the top of the mash. Kind of white fuzzy clumps seen in the pictures below
The mash smelled like cooked corn and that was it, no other rancid smells. I batch sparged with 4 gallons at 175 and skimmed the white fuzzys off. Then finished the as normal.
After 20 min boil and I had 1.037 cooled to 75 and pitched the three packets of S05.
I realize this is a low SRM but never seen a wort this gray grey before. It tasted fantastic with the perfect amount of sour for me.
Really hope this turns out.

 

[Setesh]

My sour mash had great sourness but some vomit smell to it. I boiled for 90 minutes but the vomit was still there. I wen't ahead and pitched a pack of 05 into it and let it go 3 weeks. The finished beer has excellent flavor and no vomit taste, but still has a faint vomit aroma. I decided to pitch brett into it to see if it would clean up the aroma. Pitched dregs from an Orval and 3 Jolly Pumpkin La Rojas into it and stuck it in the closet. It will be a while but I will update with the results.

I also made a sour wort version, but it's moving along slowly. It may be another couple of months before it sours to my liking.

 

[Colorado68]

What is the general consensus on going to secondary vs. bottling out of primary?
I'm 12 days in primary and krausen just dropped a couple days ago. Has a nice cloudy light gold apperence and smells great. Should I bottle or rack to a secondary ?
This was the sour mash process.
Thanks!

 

[dantheman13]

Those glass big mouths scare me so much!

Good job on what appears to be a successful sour mash!

 

[Colorado68]

Wow!! this tastes wonderful!
So excited to try it carbed.
Racked 1 gal on tart cherries
1 gal on blackberries
The other three were corked in Belgian bottles at 3.5v
Finished at 1.004 so a little high at 4% abv.

 

[Colorado68]

Those glass big mouths scare me so much!

Me too but I think it will be great for fruit and dry hopping as it provides easy access.
It was a fathers day gift so I had to use it

 

[Thedutchtouch]

so.. i cant read through 40+ pages, was there a consensus? or is it that they all work and choose what works for you (a la BIAB vs 3 vessel)?

 

[TopherM]

Check out my post #389 in this thread. I summed up the whole thread into one procedure that works with any brew setup:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/berliner-weiss-many-ways-385934/index39.html#post6123428

 

[mothershipbrewing]

I'm about 24 hours into my first BW fermentation and its taken off really well it seems. I did a Mash hop with Saaz leaf, 15 minute boil, chilled to 120 & pitched 2 tubes of wlp677. I have it sitting in my shed outside right now wrapped in a blanket. It's got to be about 90-115 in there.

I'm thinking about taking a sample tonight to see how much sugar the wlp677 is consuming and to gauge the acidity level. I plan on moving it to room temp when its acidic/sour enough and hopefully before too much sugar is consumed then the plan is to pitch 1 tube of Yeast Bay's Brett Blend and some Cascade dregs.

 

[ja09]

I'm thinking about taking a sample tonight to see how much sugar the wlp677 is consuming and to gauge the acidity level. I plan on moving it to room temp when its acidic/sour enough and hopefully before too much sugar is consumed then the plan is to pitch 1 tube of Yeast Bay's Brett Blend and some Cascade dregs.

Unfortunately wlp677 is capable of producing alcohol and will eat through all the sugar. I had the same thought when I used it, only to find out it's more than capable of fermenting the entire thing without producing any initial sour...just tons of sulfur tasting beer. Mine is now about 6 months in with a slight sour and is starting to taste really nice. Ph is currently at 3.8. Was 4.4 after 8 days above 90* and 1.009 with only wlp677.

Did you buy it because it was half the price of wyeast? That's the reason I did and it was a big mistake for the quick bw I was going for.

 

[mothershipbrewing]

I bought it because my lhbs doesn't carry wyeast. I could've ordered it but didn't realize I was gonna do. BW til last Thursday night, & I didn't want to wait. Grain bill was about 7.5% acid malt fwiw was thinking maybe that would help. Gonna check on it tonight and see.


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[ja09]

Keep us updated. I'd love to hear your results with the acid malt and the gravity. Do you have a ph meter?

 

[mothershipbrewing]

Keep us updated. I'd love to hear your results with the acid malt and the gravity. Do you have a ph meter?

I do, however I did not realize I needed to buy 2 different buffer solutions to calibrate it. It did come with a piece of paper that looks like someone from the factory calibrated the ph10 anyway, so I dont know how accurate it would be if I used it now.

Just pulled the first sample, even at the warmer temps its reading 1010. I think I'm gonna pull it inside and pitch the Brett and Dregs.

 

[TopherM]

I did my first Berliner with the acid malt method. It will lower the PH of the mash to sour levels, but it's a MUCH different sour taste than getting real lactobacillus to create lactic acid in a sour mash/starter, or for brett to create a sour in an extended sour fermentation.

The sour of an acid malt mash is thin and sharp. Trust me, it's the lowest quality of all of the ways to sour a beer. There's more to a good sour than just low PH.

**just to clarify, that's if you are ONLY using acid malt. I think the poster who mentioned acid malt is also planning on extended fermentation with Brett.**

 

[JStutz82]

So I just got done reading the May/June issue of BYO and the suggestion in there for a Berliner Weisse is to pitch the saccharomyces at 60F first and let go for a day and then to pitch Brett and Lacto and leave at 60F for 3-4 weeks then bottle....Any thoughts on this? Seems backwards from everything that I am reading here. Thanks!

 

[TopherM]

So I just got done reading the May/June issue of BYO and the suggestion in there for a Berliner Weisse is to pitch the saccharomyces at 60F first and let go for a day and then to pitch Brett and Lacto and leave at 60F for 3-4 weeks then bottle....Any thoughts on this? Seems backwards from everything that I am reading here. Thanks!

Are you sure that's what it says? You are not going to get a noticable sour in 4 weeks at 60F. It's just not going to happen. It's going to take more like 4 months at that temp to even start to be sour. Alternately, you could do it in 3 days at about 100-120F.

Are you sure that BYO method doesn't include a sour starter? That would make more sense.

 

[ja09]

Are you sure that's what it says? You are not going to get a noticable sour in 4 weeks at 60F. It's just not going to happen. It's going to take more like 4 months at that temp to even start to be sour. Alternately, you could do it in 3 days at about 100-120F.

Are you sure that BYO method doesn't include a sour starter? That would make more sense.

I haven't read the article, but Topher is right and it will take at least 4 months to sour, probably closer to 8. BYO articles seem to have lots of little issues and misinformation, which is why I canceled my subscription.

To get a quick sour you'll either need to do a sour mash or pitch wyeast lacto and hold above 90* until it's sour enough. White Labs lacto takes months, but pretty sure wyeast is pure and won't ferment down the beer.

 

[jivex5k]

I've used this method twice with fantastic results.
Sour Mash with 2 handfuls of unmilled grain. Stick under heat lamp for 5 days, use saran wrap to keep oxygen out. Collect wort and boil, finish with US-05.
The sour it creates is awesome.

 

[JStutz82]

Thanks for the response guys! Ya I keep re-reading the article and I'm pretty sure I'm reading it right. You do make a brett and lacto starter but it says to be done the same day as the brew day off off some extra wort so its only going for 24 hrs tops. Its funny because the article even highlights that you have to let the sacc get a head start on the brett and lacto. Unless I'm reading something wrong I think I will just stick with the info I'm pulling from HBT.

 

[Calder]

It is vague on specifics, but basically, BYO says pitch the yeast a couple of days before the lacto, and to maintain temperatures about 60 F. The lacto is started at the same time as the yeast in a separate 2L starter.

I have never tried this method, but would expect, like others, that this will result in little souring, if any that is noticeable.

I like to sour my wort first at 100 F for several days, and only when it is sour enough, do I add the yeast.

If you have a heterofermentative lacto (makes alcohol, and reduces gravity), you shouldn't worry. It is making alcohol (doing what the yeast would do) while making lactic acid. I have found that it needs to get down to below 1.010 to be decently sour with that type of lacto before adding any yeast. Assumes a low OG of around 1.035. With homofermentative lacto, the OG barely changes because the lactic acid has a similar gravity to the sugars.

I generally have my BWs in the bottle in 4 weeks and drinking at 6.

Question: has anyone done a BW the way BYO suggests? What were the results?