Berliner Weiss, many ways

[Tiroux]

SUre, sure, blame it on your English... JK. No, I didn't think you were being rude. I just thought we had gotten is all. I hope the beer turns out well. I'm interested to here feedback. I'm surprised it's not more sour having dropped from 1.038 to 1.014 with no sacch or brett added yet. It's not necessarily odd, but it certainly leaves me scratching my head.

I'll keep posting. I'm boiling it right now.

 

[redkj]

In the interest of the original thread subject (many ways), has anyone used or considered using a lager yeast for a BW? It seems to me that the clean crispness of a lager strain would suite this style well.

 

[ajwillys]

My only thought would be that lacto may not work so well at the same temps that lager yeasts do (or perhaps at all). Of course, if you do it split style where you sour, then ferment (or vicy versy) that may not be a problem.

 

[Tiroux]

My concerns wouldn't be the temp (sour mash is pre-fermentation, anyway...), bu the low pH level.

 

[redkj]

PH could definitely be a problem, but I wouldn't think it would be for lagers any more than ales, would it? I've only used lager yeast once (so far), so I'm no expert.

 

[sclitch]

If anyone is interested, I recently got a silver medal in the sour category with this process. I haven't yet received my score or any judging notes but here are a few tasting notes of my own.
Very pale, cloudy, effervescent. Not a whole lot on the nose, a little grainy. Taste is sharply sour, like a punch in the jaw, lots of breadiness as well.

It's probably around 4.2%

50/50 pils/wheat. Low mash temperature. For the souring, I put all of the wort in about 5 one gallon milk jugs. I added a handful of uncrushed 2-row pale malt to each jug, squeezed all of the air out and screwed caps on them. Tossed these all inside my fermentation chamber (heated with a hair dryer). I had them souring at 95F for 3 days and I still wasn't happy with how sour it was becoming so I added a bit more uncrushed grain to each and ramped up the temperature to 110 for another 3 days. Finally I was satisfied with the sourness (I like em sour), I did a quick 15 min boil with 5 IBU worth of Hallertauer. Fermented with Safale-05 at ~68F for 10 days then bottled.

I never noticed any bad aromas during fermentation. Maybe because I was able to limit the oxygen exposure to the wort.

The only problem was that one of the milk jugs cracked! That was a fun mess to clean up.......................

To help some people that might be on the fence about which way to brew a berliner weisse. This method I used is relatively easy and I scored a 45 with 1st place BOS in a competition with 500+ entries.

 

[Indytruks138]

To help some people that might be on the fence about which way to brew a berliner weisse. This method I used is relatively easy and I scored a 45 with 1st place BOS in a competition with 500+ entries.

This method does seem like asking for bottle bombs, is there a reason you put the caps back on instead of airlocks?

 

[sclitch]

The only reason is because you are able to squeeze all air out an cap on it. Airlock would be great if I had a volume suitable for one of my carboys.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Indytruks138]

The only reason is because you are able to squeeze all air out an cap on it. Airlock would be great if I had a volume suitable for one of my carboys.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

You should be able to put a stopper and airlock on a 1 gallon jug, I have one on my raspberry Berliner right now.

 

[Thorpe429]

You should be able to put a stopper and airlock on a 1 gallon jug, I have one on my raspberry Berliner right now.

I've always hated those stoppers, since I could never seem to find ones that fit perfectly and didn't start to slide out. I was very glad to see that Northern Brewer and other places have started selling plastic screw tops with an airlock hole:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/38mm-screw-cap-with-hole.html

 

[poobaca]

Hey guys, thinking of trying out a Berliner and have a few questions I thought some could help with.

I was thinking of doing a sour mash in my converted cooler mash tun. Is there any chance that this could contaminate the mash tun and ruin future batches of non sour beers. Also I plan on covering the mash with plastic wrap as best I can then screwing the lid on to keep it insulated. Is there any off gasing going on during this that not letting air escape could cause a problem?

Sent from my HTC One using Home Brew mobile app

 

[poobaca]

Also after the mash is done, if I decided not to boil is there a chance of something growing in it that could make you sick? From what I understand boiling will kill off lacto. I'd like to make it as sour as possible, but not at the risk of having some bad bacteria in it.

Sent from my HTC One using Home Brew mobile app

 

[fc36]

Hey guys, thinking of trying out a Berliner and have a few questions I thought some could help with.

I was thinking of doing a sour mash in my converted cooler mash tun. Is there any chance that this could contaminate the mash tun and ruin future batches of non sour beers. Also I plan on covering the mash with plastic wrap as best I can then screwing the lid on to keep it insulated. Is there any off gasing going on during this that not letting air escape could cause a problem?

Sent from my HTC One using Home Brew mobile app

Also after the mash is done, if I decided not to boil is there a chance of something growing in it that could make you sick? From what I understand boiling will kill off lacto. I'd like to make it as sour as possible, but not at the risk of having some bad bacteria in it.

Sent from my HTC One using Home Brew mobile app

I did my sour mash in a bucket and wrapped it with a grow mat heater hooked up to a temp controller that had a probe suspended in the mash. It was locked in at 100F for 4 days and was plenty sour. I then did a 15 minute boil and threw it in another bucket for 14 days with some WY1007. It turned out amazing. Really sour and clean tasting. Also make sure to void the head space of your mashing vessel with CO2 to decrease the chance of other nasties taking root. You're looking for a nice strong cooked corn smell. If you smell feet, vomit, or sweaty armpit, dump it.

 

[poobaca]

Cool thanks for the info, I'm hoping the cooler can maintain the heat without addition of a hear source. I do have a plant mat heater but don't think it goes much above 80. Gonna do a test run with just hot water tonight and see how it goes.

How long did you leave yours in the bottle before they were ready?

Sent from my HTC One using Home Brew mobile app

 

[fc36]

Cool thanks for the info, I'm hoping the cooler can maintain the heat without addition of a hear source. I do have a plant mat heater but don't think it goes much above 80. Gonna do a test run with just hot water tonight and see how it goes.

How long did you leave yours in the bottle before they were ready?

Sent from my HTC One using Home Brew mobile app

I can already tell you that the cooler will not maintain the temp for more than a couple hours. The plant mat I used didn't have an internal thermal shutoff and I plugged it into my PID temp controller. It was only 25W and easily held the temp at 100F solid with just a thin wall standard plastic 7 gallon Vinter's Best fermenter bucket. I did wrap it with a sheet to keep some heat in, but it really was able to do it on its own.

I kegged it after only a few weeks and it was crazy delicious and plenty sour. It only got better with age and really tastes amazing with homemade syrups of all kinds.

 

[poobaca]

Ah yea, I've always been sketched out about leaving heating elements plugged in all day while I'm at work. Might try wrapping some sort of insulator around it and see how that works.

Sent from my HTC One using Home Brew mobile app

 

[fc36]

Ah yea, I've always been sketched out about leaving heating elements plugged in all day while I'm at work. Might try wrapping some sort of insulator around it and see how that works.

Sent from my HTC One using Home Brew mobile app

This is what I use: http://www.brewandgrow.com/brew/fermenting/temperature-control/electric-fermentation-heater.html

Luckily, I live in Chicago and Brew & Grow is right down the street. This bad boy does a great job of holding my temp at 100F, I think it's about 40W or so. And think about a typical incandescent lightbulb at 60-100W. This thing gives off less thermal energy than that and it's spread over a 24" x 12" surface vs a standard light bulb's surface area of less than 6 square inches. That equates to less than 20% of the energy per square inch of a lightbulb that could be used to set fire to nearby stacks of newspapers or whatever else you have lying around the house that could ignite. I would not worry about leaving it on all day and all night unattended, except if you have a dog like I did and he curls up next to it for warmth. Yup, my dog kept an eye on my runaway ferm heater and made sure it didn't get out of hand.

 

[redkj]

I pitched a bunch of slurry from a vienna lager into a sour-mashed (and then pasteurized) BW yesterday. There were concerns on here, as well as my own, about the PH, but today it's bubbling away, so hopefully everything goes as planned. I'm looking forward to comparing it to the last couple of bottles I still have from the same recipe using US-05.

 

[ajwillys]

I did my frist BW a few weeks ago. I did a mash for a 10 gallon batch, boiled the wort for 30 minutes and then separated 5 gallons worth of wort for berliner and used the rest to create kind of a hefe/wit hybrid... Anyway, I did the initial boil to remove oxygen (and because I only wanted lacto d in the fermentor). That five gallons of berliner wort went into a keg that was submerged in 112 water (ranco controlled) where it stayed. Once I was sure the wort was to temp sufficiently, I pitched a vial of wlp677.

What I got was nothing. The temp was dead on accurate for the entire time but there was very little souring after a week. It was barely detectable at all but I did have what looked to be bacterial sludge forming. After a week I finally threw a handful of 2-row in there and that helped. Even still it was 4 days to get to the level of souring I wanted (tart really, I wanted something more like oarsman). After that, I boiled it for 15 minutes, adding hops at 15 and then cooled and pitched US-05. I'm about to keg it so I'll let everyone know how it turns out.

My real reason for posting is the complete lack of souring initially. My guess is that people are getting alot more lacto from the mash process than they think even though the temps are so high. I'm not sure that pitching pure lacto or raw grain has much of a effect compared to the lacto that remains from the mash itself. Anyone else have any similar observations?

 

[ja09]

Once I was sure the wort was to temp sufficiently, I pitched a vial of wlp677.

What I got was nothing.

This was my exact experience with wlp677. I had my chamber set ~92* for 7 days, fermented down to 1.010 without any sour, and had a ph reading of 4.4. Apparently it's not 100% pure lacto-d and "is capable of producing an enzyme which allows it to ferment maltose, maltotriose, and raffinose", meaning it will also produce alcohol and co2. Lot's of good info on the Mad Fermentationist: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/06/100-lactobacillus-berliner-weisse.html

Mine tasted like complete a$$ after 7 days... sulfur and band-aids, so I left it to sour and see what happens. That was about 5 months ago and I still haven't tasted it since. Recently formed a nice pellicle though. I should probably give it a taste soon and take another ph reading

 

[redkj]

What's your recipe ja09? It looks quite a bit darker than most BWs. Just curious.

 

[ja09]

What's your recipe ja09? It looks quite a bit darker than most BWs. Just curious.

It probably just looks dark because of the sweatshirt blocking the light. 66% pilsner 34% wheat ~6 ibu tettnang. ~2.2srm.

 

[poobaca]

This is what I use: http://www.brewandgrow.com/brew/fermenting/temperature-control/electric-fermentation-heater.html

Luckily, I live in Chicago and Brew & Grow is right down the street. This bad boy does a great job of holding my temp at 100F, I think it's about 40W or so. And think about a typical incandescent lightbulb at 60-100W. This thing gives off less thermal energy than that and it's spread over a 24" x 12" surface vs a standard light bulb's surface area of less than 6 square inches. That equates to less than 20% of the energy per square inch of a lightbulb that could be used to set fire to nearby stacks of newspapers or whatever else you have lying around the house that could ignite. I would not worry about leaving it on all day and all night unattended, except if you have a dog like I did and he curls up next to it for warmth. Yup, my dog kept an eye on my runaway ferm heater and made sure it didn't get out of hand.

Thanks for the advice man, think I'm gonna end up setting up a big tub of water to put the carboy in and try some old fish tank heaters to see if I can get that close to 100.


Sent from my HTC One using Home Brew mobile app

 

[lawbadger]

I brewed a BW over the weekend - 50% Pilsner / 50% Wheat, 4 IBUs, OG 1.034, 20 min boil. I used Wyeast Lacto 5335 which was in half gallon of apple juice starter for 10 days prior to brew day. Cooled wort to 100, added lacto, and carboy has been kept warm at 90-100 since then. Within 36 hours I got a lacto krausen.

I had been planning on going 48-72 hours before pitching US05 and giving it three-ish weeks before bottling. Any reason to deviate from the plan due to lacto fermention?

 

[ja09]

I brewed a BW over the weekend - 50% Pilsner / 50% Wheat, 4 IBUs, OG 1.034, 20 min boil. I used Wyeast Lacto 5335 which was in half gallon of apple juice starter for 10 days prior to brew day. Cooled wort to 100, added lacto, and carboy has been kept warm at 90-100 since then. Within 36 hours I got a lacto krausen.

I had been planning on going 48-72 hours before pitching US05 and giving it three-ish weeks before bottling. Any reason to deviate from the plan due to lacto fermention?

lawbadger, if you can, I'd be really interested to know your gravity before pitching 05, and if you can taste any sour.

Wlp677 alone brought mine down to 1.010 in 7 days without any immediate sour, but I've read it's a less pure strain than wyeast 5335.

 

[Zazmo]

Anyone else feel a little pervy looking at this?

 

[Calder]

I brewed a BW over the weekend - 50% Pilsner / 50% Wheat, 4 IBUs, OG 1.034, 20 min boil. I used Wyeast Lacto 5335 which was in half gallon of apple juice starter for 10 days prior to brew day. Cooled wort to 100, added lacto, and carboy has been kept warm at 90-100 since then. Within 36 hours I got a lacto krausen.

I had been planning on going 48-72 hours before pitching US05 and giving it three-ish weeks before bottling. Any reason to deviate from the plan due to lacto fermention?

Taste it before adding the yeast. Don't add yeast until it gets to the sour level you want. Once there is alcohol, it will take a long time to sour any more, if it does at all.

 

[ja09]

Anyone else feel a little pervy looking at this?

I find the berliners to be the most sensual of all the specialty fermented malt beverages

 

[lawbadger]

lawbadger, if you can, I'd be really interested to know your gravity before pitching 05, and if you can taste any sour.

Wlp677 alone brought mine down to 1.010 in 7 days without any immediate sour, but I've read it's a less pure strain than wyeast 5335.

So it's been going for three days and I pulled a sample today. Not quite what I was expecting - gravity was at 1.032, if that, with bready and slight cooked corn aroma and no tartness. I'll give it some more time before checking again.

 

[redkj]

Anyone ever have any trouble souring due the the buffering capacity of their water? I brew using tap water (I know, I know) and it comes out at about 8.5PH and +20KH. I know that the mash should lower my PH some, but I've never measure. The BW I just brewed was identical in recipe to one I did at my last place, only I let it sour for 5 days instead of 2 before adding yeast. Somehow, it's still not as sour.