Belle saison flavors

[Owly055]

Is a tangy flavor typical of Belle Saison fermented on the cold side? I've used Belle Saison in summer mostly, and let the temp run wild to get that distinctive musky funk it throws at high temps. I've never tried it cold until last week when I did a sweet potato pale ale..... a very light bodied brew with a little two row, a tiny amount of crystal 150, sweet potato, invert sugar... both white and brown, and some sweet orange peel. I put AG300 fungal amylase in the ferment rather than trying to achieve a perfect conversion in the mash, though it was respectable.
The sweet potato was cut up small, slow cooked, then well mashed.......with the peel on, and water and all were put in the mash along with the two row and crystal, but it it's own separate bag in the same pot, so that I had two BIAB mashes in the same pot, which was stirred a LOT during the mash. The sugars were inverted while the mash was going on, using cream of tarter.
The bags were drained and squeezed, and the grain dumped. The bag with the sweet potato was set aside, and added back near the end of the boil, chilled with the wort, and put into the fermenter, bag and all for the primary, then removed, drained and discarded after a week.
The product is interesting, with a distinct tang following the characteristic Belle Saison musk. Almost a sour beer tang, but it is not soured. I'm mystified about this tang...... what is causing it. I don't think the orange peel is responsible. The only hop used was Nugget, at an IBU of about 20, added at 8 minutes. The color is a definite sweet potato orange, but probably from the crystal. I used 2 pounds per gallon of sweet potato, and half an ounce per gallon of sweet orange peel.

............ Thoughts anybody??

 

[hobomoto]

I had one of my belle saison beers finish vey low at 1.000. It had a distinct tang or slight tartness to it but nothing like a sour.

 

[Owly055]

I had one of my belle saison beers finish vey low at 1.000. It had a distinct tang or slight tartness to it but nothing like a sour.

This finished quite high actually.... The tartness is really more fruity in nature than sour when I think about it. I will be brewing with this yeast again making a more "normal" beer at low temp I've decided.

H.W.

 

[5mooth0perator]

This finished quite high actually.... The tartness is really more fruity in nature than sour when I think about it. I will be brewing with this yeast again making a more "normal" beer at low temp I've decided.

H.W.

Yeah, I was going to say the treatment of the sweet potato didn't seem quite right. Sweet potato shouldn't need extra amylase, you can use it like a base malt and use it to convert other adjuncts. I'm guessing maybe too much refined sugars.

 

[Owly055]

Yeah, I was going to say the treatment of the sweet potato didn't seem quite right. Sweet potato shouldn't need extra amylase, you can use it like a base malt and use it to convert other adjuncts. I'm guessing maybe too much refined sugars.

Why would refined sugars result in a tangy flavor? My experience with invert sugar is that it adds NOTHING except alcohol.

I do not agree with the "didn't seem quite right" statement. Sweet potatoes need to be precooked to gelatinize the starch, and that precooking is going to kill the amylase, hence my procedure. The gelatinization temp is about 165, and no amylase I know of will survive that. Have you personally brewed with sweet potatoes?

H.W.

 

[5mooth0perator]

Why would refined sugars result in a tangy flavor? My experience with invert sugar is that it adds NOTHING except alcohol.

I do not agree with the "didn't seem quite right" statement. Sweet potatoes need to be precooked to gelatinize the starch, and that precooking is going to kill the amylase, hence my procedure. The gelatinization temp is about 165, and no amylase I know of will survive that. Have you personally brewed with sweet potatoes?

H.W.

Only all the time. I think there was a paper on mashing schedules that inspired my experiment, there are also a couple of threads where people brewed a basic all sweet potato "brew", there are also a couple blogs else where where people have made sweet potato wines. Not to mention my moms sweet potato pie recipe, just sayin.



I don't think the slow cooking is necessarily a bad idea, should turn out like caramel malt if done properly, but all the extra sugar and amylase, might be giving undesired results.

 

[Morrey]

I did a fresh pumpkin ale in a process quite similar to yours sans the amylase enzyme addition but more grain than yours for sugars. My efficiency was mid-70's for comparison. I mentioned this as both the fresh sweet potato and fresh pumpkin are seemingly closely related in flavors, colors and textures. I cubed and roasted the pumpkin before bagging and adding to the boil.

I used WLP001 and had none of the tang, FG was 1.013 so there was some residual mouthfeel and moderate sweetness.

However, I use Belle Saison on a regular basis. This strain amazes me at the impact 10 degrees swing during fermentation makes with this dry yeast. 85F throws a brett-like barnyard funk with a haylike nose while the low 70's almost offers a taste like you hit it with a few cc's of lactic acid. Almost like two totally different yeast strains.

It is my opinion, and nothing more than just an opinion, the ferm temp caused the yeast to throw that tangy profile. I feel you may be able to determine the temp impact a bit more if you made a standard farmhouse Saison but duplicated your temps as you did with the potato.

 

[Owly055]

I did a fresh pumpkin ale in a process quite similar to yours sans the amylase enzyme addition but more grain than yours for sugars. My efficiency was mid-70's for comparison. I mentioned this as both the fresh sweet potato and fresh pumpkin are seemingly closely related in flavors, colors and textures. I cubed and roasted the pumpkin before bagging and adding to the boil.

I used WLP001 and had none of the tang, FG was 1.013 so there was some residual mouthfeel and moderate sweetness.

However, I use Belle Saison on a regular basis. This strain amazes me at the impact 10 degrees swing during fermentation makes with this dry yeast. 85F throws a brett-like barnyard funk with a haylike nose while the low 70's almost offers a taste like you hit it with a few cc's of lactic acid. Almost like two totally different yeast strains.

It is my opinion, and nothing more than just an opinion, the ferm temp caused the yeast to throw that tangy profile. I feel you may be able to determine the temp impact a bit more if you made a standard farmhouse Saison but duplicated your temps as you did with the potato.

I think you hit the nail right on the head.......... I do like the funk I get when I let temps run wild in summer. This is the first time I've fermented it "cold", and I have no more yeast as I didn't save any trub. It will be at least two weeks before I get to the LHBS, which is 100 miles away. The beer was a bit green when I wrote the first post, and the flavors are melting steadily and it's growing on me, but I'll be out within a few days as I only brew for a 1.5 gallon yield. It's cleared to a beautiful orange-ish amber color, the Saison musk is understated but very much there, and the tang compensates well for the low IBUs. It's a good brew, but a lot of work. Nugget is my favorite hop for a Saison for some reason. My upcoming brew is a single hop Nugget also, and I'm going to do something with Nelson and Mosaic after that.
I'm planning to buy a 55 pound bag of Munich II next, I love Munich, but it's expensive these days at about $85.....but it goes a long way. I'd rather brew with some Munich than including Crystal, I like the flavor profile it gives.

H.W.

 

[Morrey]

I think you hit the nail right on the head.......... I do like the funk I get when I let temps run wild in summer. This is the first time I've fermented it "cold", and I have no more yeast as I didn't save any trub. It will be at least two weeks before I get to the LHBS, which is 100 miles away. The beer was a bit green when I wrote the first post, and the flavors are melting steadily and it's growing on me, but I'll be out within a few days as I only brew for a 1.5 gallon yield. It's cleared to a beautiful orange-ish amber color, the Saison musk is understated but very much there, and the tang compensates well for the low IBUs. It's a good brew, but a lot of work. Nugget is my favorite hop for a Saison for some reason. My upcoming brew is a single hop Nugget also, and I'm going to do something with Nelson and Mosaic after that.
I'm planning to buy a 55 pound bag of Munich II next, I love Munich, but it's expensive these days at about $85.....but it goes a long way. I'd rather brew with some Munich than including Crystal, I like the flavor profile it gives.

H.W.

I just gleaned a great tip from you in that a good dosing of Nugget hops will play nicely in a Saison styled beer pitched with Belle Saison. I bought a 10 pack of these sachets in bulk from Amazon Prime and had them in two days. I never had the Nugget hop on my radar screen for a Saison, but I think the funk (fermented warm) would be accentuated by Nugget. I plan to try this combo after running some numbers in BeerSmith.

Belle Saison is a yeast strain that an experienced brewer can tell a mile away. You either love it or don't particularly care for it...not a whole lot of middle ground with this one, plus I like Sorachi Ace in it which makes me double weird! Fortunately for me, Saison is among my favorite flavor profiles, but I doubt a BCM drinker would agree with us.

 

[Owly055]

I just gleaned a great tip from you in that a good dosing of Nugget hops will play nicely in a Saison styled beer pitched with Belle Saison. I bought a 10 pack of these sachets in bulk from Amazon Prime and had them in two days. I never had the Nugget hop on my radar screen for a Saison, but I think the funk (fermented warm) would be accentuated by Nugget. I plan to try this combo after running some numbers in BeerSmith.

Belle Saison is a yeast strain that an experienced brewer can tell a mile away. You either love it or don't particularly care for it...not a whole lot of middle ground with this one, plus I like Sorachi Ace in it which makes me double weird! Fortunately for me, Saison is among my favorite flavor profiles, but I doubt a BCM drinker would agree with us.

Let me know what you think. We live in an era of an embarrassment of riches where hops are concerned, and also some profiteering as far as home brew supplies. Everybody want's to cut a fat hog it seems. There is annual stampede for the newest most exotic hops, and as a result the prices for those tend to be high...... so I sit back and brew with some of the older less "in favor" hops and try to find different combinations. Nugget Saison is one of those that works for me. I love Mosaic.....but it's expensive, and frequently blend it with Willamette, but at current prices I'll brew with something else. Nelson Sauvin is another hop I love, particularly with Mouteka, but those are getting more expensive, but I expect will soon top out as the stampede moves on to latest and greatest. Another older hop that is not "in favor" is Columbus..... an old standby.. (boring?). It can produce as dynamite APA using large quantities of cone hops late in the boil, as well as whirlpool and dry hop, moderate IBUs in the mid 30's which is lower than I usually go. It tends to be cheap, and is a popular BMC hop, but when used with a heavy hand, it can make a really striking APA.

H.W.