Beginners Mild

[ericbw]

Interesting. I have that yeast in my fridge, and haven't used it before. Actually, I have both of those yeasts, but haven't used them yet, only US-05 as far as dry.

I did a stout with S-04 last Friday, and it has been pretty slow but active at 63. It's 1 gallon, so there was krausen to the top of the jug and out the blowoff for 2 days, and now a tiny but active ring around the surface.

I also did a gallon with WB-06 and it was much more vigorous. I have it at 66.

Both will go to the basement for 10 days at 60-62. Then I might warm them up a couple days and see if they get active again before bottling.

 

[MindenMan]

I am concerned regarding an immediate drop in temperature. Dropping the temperature 6 degrees all at once (overnight) the yeast may fall out. I am curious, why do you want to lower the temperature @ 6 days of fermenting? What am I missing?

 

[skitter]

So after soending until Wednesday morning to get going on fermentation with Nottingham, it only took till this evening for it to taper back off, krausen has dropped, time to let it sit out it's week worth of clean up.

 

[skitter]

Bottled it Dec 14 and by this last weekend of Jan 5th it was pretty tasty. Probably should have left it in the bottles longer but opened half the batch early on New Years Eve. It had a little bit of a bitter aftertaste but that probably would have mellowed out after the 3 weeks.

Even at 2 it had a good head and lacing, but may have been slightly overcarbed for the style. I had just adjusted the Mr. Beer priming instructions for my batches (2tsp per liter) and from what the priming calc says on Northern Brewer that's closer to 3.5 vol of Co2... Holy crap! Mild's are supposed to be about 1.7 right?

Oops...

 

[rodwha]

Do you add sugar to each bottle and carb like that?

 

[skitter]

Never have, always batch prime

 

[rodwha]

I found where you described your process elsewhere. Bottle priming just seems like quite the tasks with plenty of room for error! Not to mention each bottle would have to be slightly different each time. No uniformity.

 

[skitter]

Indeed, this is why I batch prime. But I'll need to cut back how much sugar, according to Northern Brewers Priming Calc I'm way overpriming. For a 2.5g batch, in which I am getting slightly less from the trub subtraction etc... I should only be using 1/4c, 6tbsp is 1/2c if I have my conversions right. Table Sugar not Dextrose

 

[rodwha]

I'm trying out corn sugar. I've been using table sugar for a long time now. Before that I used the carbonation drops, which was nice, but expensive.

 

[skitter]

I'm trying out corn sugar. I've been using table sugar for a long time now. Before that I used the carbonation drops, which was nice, but expensive.

Never plan on using drops, but I would like to try corn sugar, it's supposed to be more effervescent

 

[rodwha]

My buddy had been using the corn sugar and said the biggest difference was smaller bubbles. Figured I'd give it a shot despite the higher expense and fact it's accounted for in my hobby $$$ (sigh).

 

[rave808]

You can even use sugar cubes I add one per 12 ounce bottle

 

[rodwha]

Hmm… Cool idea!

 

[EarlyAmateurZymurgist]

Using Brewtoad, which recently was changed for the worst in that it won't give the tenth of a percentage for ABV now, shows that, if brewed according to the recipe, gives about 3.5% ABV, 12* L (same as SRM?), and 32 IBU's if done at 60 mins and 5 mins for the hop schedule. Using LME instead appears to change the ABV to about 3.2% I'd guess. Not a big deal. Since the extract was boiled the whole time the color is likely to be a little darker, by how much I'm not sure, and this was based on ultra light LME BTW.

One pound of DME provides approximately 46 gravity points, that is, a one gallon solution containing one pound of DME has a specific gravity of 1.046.

1.75 x 0.046 / 2.5 + 1.0 ~= 1.032

With a seventy-five percent apparent attenuation rate, we should end up with a final gravity of 1.008.

Alcohol by weight (ABW) = (1.032 - 1.008) x 105 = 2.52%
Alcohol by volume (ABV) = 2.52 x 1.25 = 3.14%

However, there is no way to know what the apparent attenuation of the fermentation was if original and final gravity readings were not taken.

The final hops should have been added out knockout, which is the proper brewing term for "time 0" ("flameout" is a slang term that entered the amateur brewing lexicon in the last decade or so mainly via web forum usage). The average Goldings hop harvest yields a hop cone that contains around 5% alpha acid. We are only using three quarters of an ounce for bittering (the knockout addition does not add bitterness). With a 1.032 boil gravity, we have a 60 minute hop utilization rate of 0.276.

IBU = (5.0 x 0.75) x 0.276 x 75 / 2.5 = 31

The above calculation assumes a non-concentrated boil. The actual IBU level will be lower if the boil volume is less than two and half gallons because the boil gravity will be higher. The IBU level is also going to be lower if the actual hop used had an alpha acid (AA) rating lower than 5 (the whole Goldings that I currently have on hand have an AA rating of 4.7%).

The major snafu was using LME instead of DME. LME only provides 36 gravity points per pound; hence, the extract mass needed to be adjusted to 46 / 36 x 1.75 ~= 2.24 pounds (i.e., a pound of DME contains 1.28 times more malt sugar than a pound of LME). Using 1.75lbs of LME in place of 1.75 pounds of DME, results in an original gravity of 1.75 x 0.036 / 2.5 + 1.0 = 1.025.

I have never heard of a five-quart pot, but they may exist. The most common large pot in the average household kitchen is six quarts. Considering that it is almost impossible to boil six quarts in a six-quart pot, let's assume that Skitter managed to boil 1.25 gallons. That boil volume doubles the boil gravity to 1.050, which yields a sixty minute hop utilization rate of 0.231.

IBU = IBU = (5.0 x 0.75) x 0.231 x 75 / 2.5 = 26 IBUs

With that said, 26 IBUs of kettle hop bitterness in a 1.025 O.G. beer is going to result in sharp back of the mouth bitterness because there is so little malt to offset the bitterness. The good news is that the bitterness will mellow if Skitter gives it enough time. The beer will also taste less bitter if it is allowed to warm up to cellar temperature.

In the end, experience is the best teacher. More is learned by making mistakes than doing everything right.

 

[skitter]

I thank you for your words of Wisdom E.A.Z, I know my process on that batch was pretty screwed, I plan on doing it again with a 16qt pot I recently purchased instead of the (your right) 6qt pot I had. I will also be using 2.25 lbs of Light LME instead of 1.75, should help smooth the beer out a bit more

 

[ericbw]

One pound of DME provides approximately 46 gravity points, that is, a one gallon solution containing one pound of DME has a specific gravity of 1.046.

1.75 x 0.046 / 2.5 + 1.0 ~= 1.032

With a seventy-five percent apparent attenuation rate, we should end up with a final gravity of 1.008.

Alcohol by weight (ABW) = (1.032 - 1.008) x 105 = 2.52%
Alcohol by volume (ABV) = 2.52 x 1.25 = 3.14%

However, there is no way to know what the apparent attenuation of the fermentation was if original and final gravity readings were not taken.

The final hops should have been added out knockout, which is the proper brewing term for "time 0" ("flameout" is a slang term that entered the amateur brewing lexicon in the last decade or so mainly via web forum usage). The average Goldings hop harvest yields a hop cone that contains around 5% alpha acid. We are only using three quarters of an ounce for bittering (the knockout addition does not add bitterness). With a 1.032 boil gravity, we have a 60 minute hop utilization rate of 0.276.

IBU = (5.0 x 0.75) x 0.276 x 75 / 2.5 = 31

The above calculation assumes a non-concentrated boil. The actual IBU level will be lower if the boil volume is less than two and half gallons because the boil gravity will be higher. The IBU level is also going to be lower if the actual hop used had an alpha acid (AA) rating lower than 5 (the whole Goldings that I currently have on hand have an AA rating of 4.7%).

The major snafu was using LME instead of DME. LME only provides 36 gravity points per pound; hence, the extract mass needed to be adjusted to 46 / 36 x 1.75 ~= 2.24 pounds (i.e., a pound of DME contains 1.28 times more malt sugar than a pound of LME). Using 1.75lbs of LME in place of 1.75 pounds of DME, results in an original gravity of 1.75 x 0.036 / 2.5 + 1.0 = 1.025.

I have never heard of a five-quart pot, but they may exist. The most common large pot in the average household kitchen is six quarts. Considering that it is almost impossible to boil six quarts in a six-quart pot, let's assume that Skitter managed to boil 1.25 gallons. That boil volume doubles the boil gravity to 1.050, which yields a sixty minute hop utilization rate of 0.231.

IBU = IBU = (5.0 x 0.75) x 0.231 x 75 / 2.5 = 26 IBUs

With that said, 26 IBUs of kettle hop bitterness in a 1.025 O.G. beer is going to result in sharp back of the mouth bitterness because there is so little malt to offset the bitterness. The good news is that the bitterness will mellow if Skitter gives it enough time. The beer will also taste less bitter if it is allowed to warm up to cellar temperature.

In the end, experience is the best teacher. More is learned by making mistakes than doing everything right.

Pretty long answer to say, "LME and DME are not the same."

 

[skitter]

Pretty long answer to say, "LME and DME are not the same."

I'm a geek, I don't just want to know that something IS, I want to know why it is, so I appreciate his breakdown

 

[EarlyAmateurZymurgist]

Pretty long answer to say, "LME and DME are not the same."

As the creator of the recipe, I was addressing several areas that rodwha mentioned in his posting. Part of becoming a proficient brewer is understanding how recipes are formulated. As we are in the beginner's area of HBT, nothing can be assumed.

 

[skitter]

As the creator of the recipe, I was addressing several areas that rodwha mentioned in his posting. Part of becoming a proficient brewer is understanding how recipes are formulated. As we are in the beginner's area of HBT, nothing can be assumed.

I do appreciate it and I thank you for putting together the recipe for me, I will be brewing it according to recipe next since I aquired a bigger pot

 

[rodwha]

Hmmm… I had figured out how to show the results of a created recipe on Brewtoad so that it does show tenths of alcohol percentages, and their numbers are a little different than yours. The numbers I originally gave were an estimate as I couldn't see what the results were specifically. I had to look at a slide.

It shows that recipe using Nottingham as having an OG of 1.033 and 3.4% ABV with DME and 1.028 and 2.9% ABV with LME, and 29 and 30 IBU's using Goldings, though there's a slide as far as AA's go.

I'm not sure why the difference as I see your math. Brewtoad has been fairly accurate for me.

 

[EarlyAmateurZymurgist]

Hmmm… I had figured out how to show the results of a created recipe on Brewtoad so that it does show tenths of alcohol percentages, and their numbers are a little different than yours. The numbers I originally gave were an estimate as I couldn't see what the results were specifically. I had to look at a slide.

It shows that recipe using Nottingham as having an OG of 1.033 and 3.4% ABV with DME and 1.028 and 2.9% ABV with LME, and 29 and 30 IBU's using Goldings, though there's a slide as far as AA's go.

I'm not sure why the difference as I see your math. Brewtoad has been fairly accurate for me.

It has to do with the values that Brewtoad is using to perform calculations, any deviations in how the calculations are being performed, and how rounding is being handled. That's why I do not use brewing software. I want control over how all of my intermediate and final values are handled. I also want to know the exact calculations that are being performed.


Let's look at the O.G. equation

1.75 x 0.046 / 2.5 + 1.0 ~= 1.032

The symbol "~=" is often use in mathematics to denote "approximately equal to" on text-based systems, which is different than "equal to." The actual value is 1.0322. Brewtoad is rounding the value up to 1.033, which is not how I would handle the trailing 2. I would truncate any value in the ten thousandths position that was less than or equal to 4.

I would have to see how Brewtoad is calculating IBUs to evaluate the differences.


Let's look at how ABV is calculated

ABV = O.G. - F.G. x 105 x 1.25

Working an ABV of 3.4% backwards yields an apparent attenuation of

3.4 / 1.25 / 105 / 0.033 x 100 = 79%, which is high for Nottingham when pitched into such a low gravity wort, especially a malt extract-based recipe.

I used an apparent attenuation of 75% in my calculation

(1.032 - 1.008) / 0.032 x 100 = 75%

With that said, the only way to determine the ABV of a batch is to measure the original and final gravities and plug those values into the ABV equation shown above (a hydrometer and an accurate thermometer are essential brewing tools). For example, I recently made an all-grain Pre-Pro Pilsner that had an O.G. of 1.062 and an F.G. of 1.012.

Apparent Attentuation = 1.062 - 1.012 / 0.062 = 80.6%, which is high, but not out of the question considering the grist, mash temperature, and the yeast strain.

ABV = 1.062 - 1.012 x 105 x 1.25 = 6.56%

 

[rodwha]

I certainly wouldn't have rounded that up either!

I've only used Hopville, which Brewtoad took over. I also looked at a couple of others, including BeerSmith, but it just seemed much more complicated.

I don't care for the water chemistry and adding a bunch of stuff to my water. I do partial mashes mostly because I can't do a full boil, but also because it allows a little room for error with the water. I've looked at my water report and know that it's quite hard, and so I'll add 1 gal of store bought water with dark beer, and 2 gals if it's a lighter beer. I don't enter contests, and I'm quite happy (most of the time).

 

[skitter]

E.A.Z.,

Question for you, would that beer be a little less dry if I used S-04? I plan on making it one more time with Nottingham as I do still have half a pack, but I normally use S-04 and like the nice malty finish it gives my beers.

Thanks!

 

[rodwha]

Fermentis states a 75% attenuation for S-04. I'm guessing this is an average as it shows no range.

 

[EarlyAmateurZymurgist]

Fermentis S-04 is the Whitbread "B" strain, which is the same strain as Wyeast 1098 and White Labs WLP007. Whitbread "B" is not exactly what I would call a malty yeast strain. If you are limiting your choices to dry yeast (which I only use in emergencies), the maltiest strain available is Windsor. Windsor is maltotriose challenged, which is the most common three-part sugar in wort. The maltiest ale yeast strain that I have ever used is Wissenchaftliche Station #338 (a.k.a. Wyeast 1338 European Ale).

By the way, if you make the Mild recipe again, you may want to limit the amount of chocolate malt to one ounce. While less bitter than black patent malt, chocolate malt does add a bitter edge to beer.

 

[skitter]

Thanks, I stick with dry due to cost, 1 package for 2 batches

 

[rodwha]

If you create a larger starter you can keep any yeast strain going with no additional cost other than the DME you use. You could even create multiple jars of it so as to make it last that much longer. This can really drop your expense, and allow you to try various liquid strains that opens so many more doors.

 

[ericbw]

E.A.Z.,

Question for you, would that beer be a little less dry if I used S-04? I plan on making it one more time with Nottingham as I do still have half a pack, but I normally use S-04 and like the nice malty finish it gives my beers.

Thanks!

Munton's regular (not the Gold) is also a good choice for a higher finishing gravity. Usually that's a flaw in yeast, but if you it a little less dry, that's an option for dry yeast, too. (And cheap!)

 

[skitter]

Munton's regular (not the Gold) is also a good choice for a higher finishing gravity. Usually that's a flaw in yeast, but if you it a little less dry, that's an option for dry yeast, too. (And cheap!)

I don't want it as dry lol that's why I wanted to stick with S-04, I like the profile it leaves.

 

[ericbw]

I don't want it as dry lol that's why I wanted to stick with S-04, I like the profile it leaves.

That's what I mean. Munton's keeps it malty (less "dry") but it is a dehydrated ("dry") yeast, so it is cheaper.