Beginners Late Extract vs. OG Question

[WNCBrewman]

So, I took another NB kit for a Sierra Nevada clone (sierra madre) and twisted it a little by reading some of the conversations on here. I was going to focus on later extract additions, using half whirlfloc tab, and also trying to use an auto siphon to rack from kettle to primary vs. simply throwing my whole wort from the kettle straight into my primary with simply a funnel. My OG was way off from the target and I am wondering why. The original recipe was .5 lb of caramel 60 steeping grain, 6lbs of Gold LME at 60m, Briess Golden Light DEM at 60m, .75 oz Chinook Hops at 60m, 1.0 oz Perle Hops at 20m, and 2oz of Cascade Hops at flameout. Estimated OG was to be 1.052.
My differences were : I only steeped 10 minutes because I waited to steep the crystal 60 until I reached 150. My intention was to steep for 20, but I got to 175 degrees quickly, and instead of holding, I proceeded and took out the grains after 10 minutes due to fear of tannins. I took half the LME Gold (3lbs) at 60, then added the other half (3lbs) 15 minutes left. I also added my DME at 30 minutes, instead of 60m.
My hops addition stayed on schedule. I also added half a whirlfloc tab at 6 minutes. I had a 2.5 partial boil, added 2g to primary, and topped off to 5gal. I took original gravity around 80 degrees. It read 1.040? How and why so low? The same amount of grain was added to the wort. I didn't forget to add anything. My other brews have been on the higher side of the targeted SG. Why is this one about a whole point less? I do want to mention that the sample was taken from the fermentor after it was topped off and thoroughly shaken for aeration.

 

[woozy]

Wort wasn't mixed enough. The top was watery and the extract was all on the bottom in a thick layer of syrup.

Forget about it. Just write down that your estimated gravity was 1.052 and assume you made it.

 

[WNCBrewman]

Wort wasn't mixed enough. The top was watery and the extract was all on the bottom in a thick layer of syrup.

Forget about it. Just write down that your estimated gravity was 1.052 and assume you made it.

I am assuming this is common on partial boils. I plugged it in Beer Smith and it also says 1.052. But even after I shook it like a banchee, it could be off that much? Do I need to use Beer Smith estimated gravities for all my future partial boils for my own "to be" recipes? What about final gravity? Is it safe to say that final gravity samples will be reliable?

 

[Yooper]

I am assuming this is common on partial boils. I plugged it in Beer Smith and it also says 1.052. But even after I shook it like a banchee, it could be off that much? Do I need to use Beer Smith estimated gravities for all my future partial boils for my own "to be" recipes? What about final gravity? Is it safe to say that final gravity samples will be reliable?

The FG will be reliable, as the sugars are in the wort even if the OG reading is inaccurate.

I've noticed that the heavier wort tends to sink, and even with shaking and stirring it's hard to get an accurate OG reading in a partial boil. You could try stirring more, and I've seen people use those wine "mix-stirs" with a drill on the wort (which helps aerate as well), but it's not really that important if you're making a kit as the OG is listed on the kit instructions.

 

[PeteNMA]

Also your hydrometer is likely calibrated at 60F or 65F, the higher temperature makes for a lower OG reading.

Plus if you haven't tried taking an actual reading in plain water at the calibrated temperature then you might be surprised how misleading reading the scale can be. You need to read from the bottom of the meniscus which can be difficult to do.

 

[mdgagne]

I think using estimated OG is more accurate than measured with partial boils. Its tough to get everything mixed, especially if you primary in a carboy.

 

[woozy]

I am assuming this is common on partial boils. I plugged it in Beer Smith and it also says 1.052. But even after I shook it like a banchee, it could be off that much?

Apparently it's very common. In fact, it's the *only* way to get an off reading with an extract. (The extracts have a set amount of sugar. You can boil them away nor cook extra ones into existence. So given x amount of extract and y amount of water then there is only one possibly o.g.)



I've never experienced this myself but it apparently happens all the time.

Nice writeup woozy, but to be nitpicky a little, there is another way to get an incorrect OG reading with extract batches. That would be by adding the wrong amount of topoff water, yielding an incorrect total volume.
I know you know that, but just trying to help out the OP.

(from below)

Yes, okay... But note I said *given* an x amount of extract and y amount of water. This presumes that the measurements, both the top offs and extract, were done correctly. Needless to say if you added only half the extract or if you doubled the water or halfed the water or doubled the extract you'd get different readings. But the *correct* amount of extract means a specific amount of sugar and the *correct* amount of water means a specific amount of water to dissolve it in, which in turn means only one possible O.G.

Do I need to use Beer Smith estimated gravities for all my future partial boils for my own "to be" recipes?

Pretty much. The rules are simple though. LME has 37 PPG (which means if you make 1 gallon of solution with water and 1 lb of LME, the solution will have an s.g. of 1.037). DME has has 45 PPG (which means 1 gallon of water solution using 1 lb of DME will have a s.g. of 1.045). Sugar has 46 PPG and honey, molases, belgian candi, etc. all have PPG that can be looked up.

To figure out O.G. multiply the PPGs by the poundage, add, and divide by the volume in gallons.

Example: 5 gallons with 5 lbs of LME, 1 pound of Sugar, and 1 pound of DME.

5 lbs of LME is enough to give 1 gallon 3*37 = 185 gravity points.
1 pound of sugar is enough to give 1 gallon 46 gravity points.
1 pound of DME is enought to give 1 gallon 45 gravity points.

So all together this is enough to give 1 gallon 276 gravity points.
Which means it's enough to give 5 gallons 276/5 = 55.2 gravity points.

Thus the O.G. will be 1.055. Tada!

Now, I have to point out that *some* specialty grains (crystals mostly-- others don't) will add some *un*fermentable sugars and will up the reading. This is usually so minimal it is ignored. These sugars do not result in any alcohol.

What about final gravity? Is it safe to say that final gravity samples will be reliable?

Your readings will be. Or they should be. The estimated final gravities are only estimates. You may miss it by 5 points (too high or too low). You may, if you are unlucky, miss it by a dozen points.

What you should do is wait two weeks before taking a reading. Take a reading two or three days apart. If the readings are the same two or three days apart then you beer is done fermenting and you can safely say that final gravity has been reached. You F.G. will probably be within a few points of the estimated F.G. but it probably won't be exact.

=====
And you should calibrate your hydrometer. Measure the gravity of water at about 60 degrees. If your hydrometer reads 1.000 it is accurate. If it doesn't, note how far off it is and always adjust to that for all your readings.

I like to, but I've never heard of anyone else doing this and if anyone tells me I'm nuts I'll stop suggesting this, test measure sugar water. I use a weight scale and measure 1 oz. of table sugar. Then I add enough water to make one cup of liquid and stir it. Then I measure the gravity. It should read 1.046. So far as I know, this is an accurate thing to do and my math is good. However if double checks me and finds something wrong I'll stop advising it. It is something that I've never heard of anyone else doing but it seems to me it should work.

 

[JimRausch]

Nice writeup woozy, but to be nitpicky a little, there is another way to get an incorrect OG reading with extract batches. That would be by adding the wrong amount of topoff water, yielding an incorrect total volume.
I know you know that, but just trying to help out the OP.

 

[WNCBrewman]

I knew Where to end up on the total volume by adding to my 5g mark I had made on my carboy, But I did go over just slightly. Which leads me to asking what would .25g more or so do to the OG? I am still wondering why my OG samples were closer on my other batches? The only thing I can think is maybe the whirlfloc (which was my first time using) was pushing the more dense wort down? I did the same process as my other batches, but thats that. I assume on my late additions it will also help with color and less malt "twang". If I am adding late, did the 30 min and 15 minute short of flameout additions have an affect? Should I have waited until flameout?
Thanks again for all your help. The knowledge from you guys here really help out newbies like myself. I appreciate all the responses.

 

[WNCBrewman]

The 10 minute steeping problem I encountered. What do I do in the future. Shut the heat, and ensure the 20-30 minute steeping? Proceed as I did? What is the negative affects of only 10 minutes. It resulted in a nice color, but I had read in Palmers book not to go past 170 degrees due to tannin extraction. Has anyone ever had this happen? I am sure I didn't get all the necessary sugars out of the grain as well as color, but I hope that it doesn't have a big effect on the batch.
I am also noticing that this batch is taking longer for fermentation to begin. Usually I have consistent bubbles after 12 hours...Now its just barely trickling small tiny bubbles infrequently.

 

[Yooper]

The 10 minute steeping problem I encountered. What do I do in the future. Shut the heat, and ensure the 20-30 minute steeping? Proceed as I did? What is the negative affects of only 10 minutes. It resulted in a nice color, but I had read in Palmers book not to go past 170 degrees due to tannin extraction. Has anyone ever had this happen? I am sure I didn't get all the necessary sugars out of the grain as well as color, but I hope that it doesn't have a big effect on the batch.
I am also noticing that this batch is taking longer for fermentation to begin. Usually I have consistent bubbles after 12 hours...Now its just barely trickling small tiny bubbles infrequently.

You don't have too worry too much about tannin extraction with such a small volume, and at most you'll get a little less color and flavor for only steeping 10 minutes. I like to bring the water up to 160-170, turn off the heat and add the grain and stir well. Cover it, and let it sit 20 minutes or so, and then remove the grains. I like to then put those grains in a strainer (still in the grainbag) and pour 170 degree water over them to "rinse" them a bit to get more goodness out of them. Then just bring the resulting liquid up to boil, and proceed.

 

[ballsy]

The 10 minute steeping problem I encountered. What do I do in the future. Shut the heat, and ensure the 20-30 minute steeping? Proceed as I did? What is the negative affects of only 10 minutes. It resulted in a nice color, but I had read in Palmers book not to go past 170 degrees due to tannin extraction. Has anyone ever had this happen? I am sure I didn't get all the necessary sugars out of the grain as well as color, but I hope that it doesn't have a big effect on the batch.
I am also noticing that this batch is taking longer for fermentation to begin. Usually I have consistent bubbles after 12 hours...Now its just barely trickling small tiny bubbles infrequently.

I have been hitting OG's typically (extract and liquid mini mash). I treat extract same as mini mash temp wise for steeping (150-155F) only difference is length time (45 vs 20). I use propane burner, heat to 160 then cut flame and when temp hits 150 I turn flame on to 160 again (lift grain bag out so doesn't burn). You should only have to do this once or twice for 20 min steep. I add 1/4 of LME at beginning of boil and the remainder at flame out.

 

[woozy]

I knew Where to end up on the total volume by adding to my 5g mark I had made on my carboy, But I did go over just slightly. Which leads me to asking what would .25g more or so do to the OG?

The 5.25 gallons is 1/20th higher. So the the gravity points will be 1/20 th lower.

"gravity points" is to take a gravity ratio (such as 1.046) and subtract the 1 and multiply by 1000 (to get the 46 gravity points).

The formula for top-off and boiling away is

Volume1 * gravityPoints1 = Volume2 * gravityPoints2​

(The volume*gravityPoints represents the *total* amount of sugar which will always stay the same. So if you add more water the points will proportional go down. If you boil away water, the points will proportionally go up.)

So if you expect 5 gallons at 1.051, but end up with 5.25 gallons you write out:

5 gallons * 51 points = 5.25 gallons * X points​

and solve for X.

Or if you hate algebra:

figure 5 gallons * 51 points = 255 total,
divide to get 255 ÷ 5.25 = 48.5
(so you get 5.25 * 48.5 = 255 total also).​

So with 5.25 gallons your O.G. will be closer to 1.048.

 

[unionrdr]

The whirlflock won't force the wort to settle below the top off water. That happens naturally,since the wort is a higher gravity. I pour the chilled wort through a fine mesh strainer to clean & aerate the wort. then pour very cold gallon jugs of spring water from as high up as possible into the fermenter to aerate more & start mixing the two. Then use my plastic paddle to mix it roughly 5 minutes straight. This always gives me an accurate reading.
I treat steeping a lot like mashing. 1.5 quarts or so of water per pound of grain. Steeping a little higher than mash temp is ok as far as steeping is concerned. Although I prefer to steep for 30 minutes to get more out of them.
Then I like to sparge to boil voilume if there's enough grains to allow for that before getting down below 1.010 gravity.

 

[WNCBrewman]

But I like the idea of using my strainer, but it's too hard for one person to hold my strainer while I pour my kettle through my funnel and into my primary. I have thought about using my bottling bucket to strain into. Then I would pour from bottling bucket to glass primary. But in this instance I'm doing a Sierra Nevada pale ale clone without dropping and think keeping any hop residue in primary would be beneficial. Is there any additional aroma my wort is getting by not straining? I added 2 oz of cascade at glamour, stirred them well and went straight to the cold bath. Should I always wait 10 min before ice bath on zero minute additions? I didn't think the auto siphon was much better after using a whirlflick tab because the turn was separated, but was suspended high in kettle too. I am wanting a clearer beer, but don't want to sacrifice taste. Cold crashing is not an option, and I'm not interested in using gelatin.