Beer used to be better

[BrewMan13]

Some good points made; I feel somewhat the same. Wherever I go I enjoy trying the local places, and of course some are hits and some are misses. It's the nature of any industry with so many new entries; they can't all be good. As mainly a porter/stout guy the whole flavored stout thing has been particularly annoying. Try to find a stout or porter without adjuncts and not pushing 10% abv... There are times and places for these of course, but it's become so common place it drowns out everything else. I find even some places with mostly "normal" offerings, still put coffee and stuff in their dark beers.
I also just wish there were more "classic" styles represented, particularly German styles. Love bocks, but it's rare to find one, and when you do it's usually not done well.

 

[couchsending]

For the most part the only people that care about traditional styles are brewers. The vast majority of customers at most craft breweries aren’t brewers (homebrewers past/present or professionals). Gotta keep the lights on and give the people what they want. A bigger problem is most of these new places have no brand identity, nothing that makes them unique whatsoever. They have to brew what’s popular in order to get people in the door as that is all they have.

Personally I’m glad the traditional craft brewery/brew pub SOP of thinking you need 6 different styles of beer and one of every color is dying. That usually equates to 6 mediocre beers instead of places that concentrate on say 2 maybe 3 styles. I’d rather go somewhere that does one or two things well. Whether that be hoppy beers or lagers, Saisons or bitters, etc.

 

[Immocles]

Personally I’m glad the traditional craft brewery/brew pub SOP of thinking you need 6 different styles of beer and one of every color is dying. That usually equates to 6 mediocre beers instead of places that concentrate on say 2 maybe 3 styles. I’d rather go somewhere that does one or two things well. Whether that be hoppy beers or lagers, Saisons or bitters, etc.

I agree. Ive found that to be common in the craft breweries in my area. They all keep a wide variety of things, but they tend to push folks to their strength beers. One new place makes a fantastic cream ale, saison, dopplebock and WCIPA, but severely suffers with trendy beers. Mercifully, they realized that (and the fact that this area isn't much in the way of enjoy honest craft beer) and have simplified their menu a ton in recent weeks.

I hope they're brewing that dopplebock again soon....

 

[Broothru]

But here's the thing, I don't usually order the most potent, most bitter, most cloudy beer, I always want to try what they do with a pilsner and a standard IPA because that's what I usually brew.

Totally.

If a brewpub can make a good "classic" style, then I'll venture into their "hipster" styles if one's on the tap list. If their pilsner or APA sucks, most likely their non-traditional beer does as well.

Since retirement 6 years ago, SWMBO'd and I have covered over 110,000 miles visiting all 48 contiguous states and 5 Canadian provinces in a motorhome (make that two motorhomes, about to be a third). I always try the local brews whenever and wherever we stop for the night. Large or small, most are really good, though some are merely 'tolerable'. And there have been a handful that were truly memorable and remarkable. Those can be counted using the digits of fewer than two hands. Nevertheless, all were (on some level) 'enjoyable'. The one common thread however has been that those who produced a solid "standard" beer were more likely to produce a respectable "non-traditional" one.

The opposite has proven never to be true.

 

[Knightshade]

I feel like I only need to do this out of my local area, but if I'm at a restaurant I've taken to asking if something that appears to be a house beer is actually brewed in house. I've noticed a business model which distributes beer and allows anybody to slap their own branding on it. Meaning ABC Mac & Crack Lager and XYZ Brats & More Lager are actually LMNOP Crappy Beer Inc Lager.

I'd like the Sours, Seltzers or some sickeningly sweet high ABV stouts to go away...but that's just me personally. So many different tastes, with so many different appealing characteristics to many, great times for all.

 

[bkboiler]

I've gone to enough local breweries that are just getting started and brew a bad batch and still serve it...when I ask about how the fermentation went and the owner tells me "oh our heater and/or glycol broke during the ferment"...
nothing could turn me away from a brewery worse than knowingly serving a bad product...
I mainly just go to my local beer bar since they only carry beer if it's good, if it's bad they just don't buy the keg...
There' no real price difference between them and the breweries anyway...which means either the brewery is keeping more profit when they sell a pint or they're running a inefficient taproom (expense-wise)...

 

[nine9bullets]

Disagree because I also know a lot of people that LOVE hazy IPAs, and thats what got them into beer.

I also know that with all the rage of hazies, pastry stouts, slushies and fruited sours, those breweries have more "new" beer drinkers because some of these beers are incredibly easy to drink. These styles appeal more to those not familiar with more traditional styles.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

I also know that with all the rage of hazies, pastry stouts, slushies and fruited sours, those breweries have more "new" beer drinkers because some of these beers are incredibly easy to drink. These styles appeal more to those not familiar with more traditional styles.

I introduced my friends to craft beer through a Triple NEIPA that I knew was pure juice and no alcohol flavour at all, they all loved it, so yes, they can sell this beer to more people

 

[Brewmasher]

I've gone to enough local breweries that are just getting started and brew a bad batch and still serve it...when I ask about how the fermentation went and the owner tells me "oh our heater and/or glycol broke during the ferment"...
nothing could turn me away from a brewery worse than knowingly serving a bad product...
I mainly just go to my local beer bar since they only carry beer if it's good, if it's bad they just don't buy the keg...
There' no real price difference between them and the breweries anyway...which means either the brewery is keeping more profit when they sell a pint or they're running a inefficient taproom (expense-wise)...

Yep. They usually call it some kind of “Belgian”

 

[idylldon]

To a certain extent, I totally understand where most of you are coming from. When I started building my brewery, my goal was to have as diverse a selection of beer styles that I could reasonably maintain with the emphasis NOT on IPAs. While I think they're a wonderful style of beer and are remarkably popular right now, I had grown weary of walking into pubs/breweries and seeing six or eight of ten taps devoted to IPAs. With that in mind, I set out to provide some choices. At this point, I have 21 beers on tap that are all brewed on the premises. I have everything from Berliner Weisse to Barleywines aged on peaches in bourbon barrels, Irish reds aged in rum barrels to barrel-soured beers, real lagers and pilsners to fruited wheat beers, and, of course, many of the "usual" suspects, Browns, Porters, Stouts, Scotch Ale, many Belgians, etc. Yes, I do have IPAs, but only three out of 21 taps. I have a session, our "regular," which is a balance between English and west coast, and I have a IIPA. The session and IIPA are fermented HOT with Hornindal so they're not the usual suspects. I do not currently have any NEIPA, though the session and IIPA have some of the same attributes.

Having said all that, I don't claim to be a "master brewer" because I don't believe in the moniker due to the fact that brewing is as much art as it is science and I don't think anyone can really master all of it. Are all my beers world class? Of course not, but that doesn't mean I don't continually tweak the recipes I know can be better every time I brew them. At this point, I probably have about 3/4s of the over 40 styles of beer that I've offered at the pub in final recipe form. The rest are still in development to one extent or another. It makes brewing interesting to make slight changes to see how they affect the final product.

In the end and IMHO, if a beer is well brewed and clean, it comes down to whether or not a person likes the flavors presented. It's totally subjective. There is a lot of playing around with style guidelines these days, which I think is a good thing, so necessarily nailing a style or comparing a "composite" beer to a strict style isn't always preferred for some. For example, I often have customers tell me "I don't like dark beer." I tell them that's cool but "dark" isn't a flavor descriptor. I then question them a bit about what they do like in a beer and try to give them samples of dark beers that seem to align with what they're looking for. Literally, nine times out of ten they like one of the dark beers I've given to them and end up ordering a glass. To me, that's one of the most rewarding aspects of being a brewer; that is, turning someone on to a beer they would have never tried otherwise.

I had been home brewing for 25 years when I turned "pro," wrote for a magazine called Brewing Techniques in the 90s, and entered and won some competitions, but I was DEAD SCARED when it came time to open our pub. In fact, I missed our grand opening because I was in the hospital with atrial fibrillation due to the stress of four years building the place and then stepping into the brewery to produce our product. Opening a brewery isn't for the faint of heart and it requires constant dedication and an unwavering work ethic. In the beginning, there were many 14-16 hour days. I'm happy to say that's not the case anymore because, frankly, it would have killed me. I'm proud of the fact that we've sold every drop of beer we've brewed and haven't had to dump anything . . . yet, but we pay scrupulous attention to all aspects of the process and ESPECIALLY sanitation. Doing anything less invites problems.

Anyway, my $0.02.

Cheers,
--
Don
Partner / Head Brewer
Idyllwild Brewpub

 

[MMP126]

To a certain extent, I totally understand where most of you are coming from. When I started building my brewery, my goal was to have as diverse a selection of beer styles that I could reasonably maintain with the emphasis NOT on IPAs. While I think they're a wonderful style of beer and are remarkably popular right now, I had grown weary of walking into pubs/breweries and seeing six or eight of ten taps devoted to IPAs. With that in mind, I set out to provide some choices. At this point, I have 21 beers on tap that are all brewed on the premises. I have everything from Berliner Weisse to Barleywines aged on peaches in bourbon barrels, Irish reds aged in rum barrels to barrel-soured beers, real lagers and pilsners to fruited wheat beers, and, of course, many of the "usual" suspects, Browns, Porters, Stouts, Scotch Ale, many Belgians, etc. Yes, I do have IPAs, but only three out of 21 taps. I have a session, our "regular," which is a balance between English and west coast, and I have a IIPA. The session and IIPA are fermented HOT with Hornindal so they're not the usual suspects. I do not currently have any NEIPA, though the session and IIPA have some of the same attributes.

Having said all that, I don't claim to be a "master brewer" because I don't believe in the moniker due to the fact that brewing is as much art as it is science and I don't think anyone can really master all of it. Are all my beers world class? Of course not, but that doesn't mean I don't continually tweak the recipes I know can be better every time I brew them. At this point, I probably have about 3/4s of the over 40 styles of beer that I've offered at the pub in final recipe form. The rest are still in development to one extent or another. It makes brewing interesting to make slight changes to see how they affect the final product.

In the end and IMHO, if a beer is well brewed and clean, it comes down to whether or not a person likes the flavors presented. It's totally subjective. There is a lot of playing around with style guidelines these days, which I think is a good thing, so necessarily nailing a style or comparing a "composite" beer to a strict style isn't always preferred for some. For example, I often have customers tell me "I don't like dark beer." I tell them that's cool but "dark" isn't a flavor descriptor. I then question them a bit about what they do like in a beer and try to give them samples of dark beers that seem to align with what they're looking for. Literally, nine times out of ten they like one of the dark beers I've given to them and end up ordering a glass. To me, that's one of the most rewarding aspects of being a brewer; that is, turning someone on to a beer they would have never tried otherwise.

I had been home brewing for 25 years when I turned "pro," wrote for a magazine called Brewing Techniques in the 90s, and entered and won some competitions, but I was DEAD SCARED when it came time to open our pub. In fact, I missed our grand opening because I was in the hospital with atrial fibrillation due to the stress of four years building the place and then stepping into the brewery to produce our product. Opening a brewery isn't for the faint of heart and it requires constant dedication and an unwavering work ethic. In the beginning, there were many 14-16 hour days. I'm happy to say that's not the case anymore because, frankly, it would have killed me. I'm proud of the fact that we've sold every drop of beer we've brewed and haven't had to dump anything . . . yet, but we pay scrupulous attention to all aspects of the process and ESPECIALLY sanitation. Doing anything less invites problems.

Anyway, my $0.02.

Cheers,
--
Don
Partner / Head Brewer
Idyllwild Brewpub

Sounds like you are the type of person the craft beer world needs more of...

Respect the history, and continually strive to keep it around, and see to it that people have access.
Experiment with the current, and provide people with a choice of what they prefer.
Strive to be original, and keep things new and interesting.

 

[henchman24]

Most breweries have to follow the trends to keep crowds coming in. Sadly that leads to some really poor examples of the current trendy beer styles out there. Outside of a few select places, the 'hazy ipas' around me are pretty much garbage. Just oxidized, old hop, sticky sweet messes of beers. The newer dessert trend is basically everywhere around me too where we have stouts that want to taste like french toast with a crap load of maple syrup... or a hazy 'ipa' that is trying to taste like berry cobblers. Good examples of those are actually phenomenal beers... the knockoffs, not so much.

None of these new types of beers are really surprising... humans like sugary drinks, make a sugary beer and people love them.

Personally, I'm ready for the next trend... but I will say when I can get a high end example of these styles, I'll still get one. Just like when I can grab Pliny the Elder, I almost always order that. My gut feeling and some of what I've seen locally... lagers are making a slow, and steady comeback. They probably won't be completely traditional, but clean and crisp seems to be on the upward trend. Even just look at the seltzers... clean, crisp, fruity. That is where I think people will trend.

 

[BiddoBrasserie]

I agree that the NEIPA or the let’s throw a whole bakery into a sour trend is a bit over the top. I have to admit that there’s quite a few breweries near me (Allagash, Oxbow, Bunker, Brewery Extrava, and Banded Brewing) that do brew beer well and they seem to follow their own path. It’s nice to see how some brewery models can thrive on brewing beers out of line with the trend.

 

[NickTheGreat]

I still like to hit breweries like that. But between lactose IPA's and pastry stouts, I try way less than I used to.

Still fun to do, but I agree, it was more fun 10 years ago. (And I really like NEIPA's)

 

[Knightshade]

To a certain extent, I totally understand where most of you are coming from. When I started building my brewery, my goal was to have as diverse a selection of beer styles that I could reasonably maintain with the emphasis NOT on IPAs. While I think they're a wonderful style of beer and are remarkably popular right now, I had grown weary of walking into pubs/breweries and seeing six or eight of ten taps devoted to IPAs. With that in mind, I set out to provide some choices. At this point, I have 21 beers on tap that are all brewed on the premises. I have everything from Berliner Weisse to Barleywines aged on peaches in bourbon barrels, Irish reds aged in rum barrels to barrel-soured beers, real lagers and pilsners to fruited wheat beers, and, of course, many of the "usual" suspects, Browns, Porters, Stouts, Scotch Ale, many Belgians, etc. Yes, I do have IPAs, but only three out of 21 taps. I have a session, our "regular," which is a balance between English and west coast, and I have a IIPA. The session and IIPA are fermented HOT with Hornindal so they're not the usual suspects. I do not currently have any NEIPA, though the session and IIPA have some of the same attributes.

Having said all that, I don't claim to be a "master brewer" because I don't believe in the moniker due to the fact that brewing is as much art as it is science and I don't think anyone can really master all of it. Are all my beers world class? Of course not, but that doesn't mean I don't continually tweak the recipes I know can be better every time I brew them. At this point, I probably have about 3/4s of the over 40 styles of beer that I've offered at the pub in final recipe form. The rest are still in development to one extent or another. It makes brewing interesting to make slight changes to see how they affect the final product.

In the end and IMHO, if a beer is well brewed and clean, it comes down to whether or not a person likes the flavors presented. It's totally subjective. There is a lot of playing around with style guidelines these days, which I think is a good thing, so necessarily nailing a style or comparing a "composite" beer to a strict style isn't always preferred for some. For example, I often have customers tell me "I don't like dark beer." I tell them that's cool but "dark" isn't a flavor descriptor. I then question them a bit about what they do like in a beer and try to give them samples of dark beers that seem to align with what they're looking for. Literally, nine times out of ten they like one of the dark beers I've given to them and end up ordering a glass. To me, that's one of the most rewarding aspects of being a brewer; that is, turning someone on to a beer they would have never tried otherwise.

I had been home brewing for 25 years when I turned "pro," wrote for a magazine called Brewing Techniques in the 90s, and entered and won some competitions, but I was DEAD SCARED when it came time to open our pub. In fact, I missed our grand opening because I was in the hospital with atrial fibrillation due to the stress of four years building the place and then stepping into the brewery to produce our product. Opening a brewery isn't for the faint of heart and it requires constant dedication and an unwavering work ethic. In the beginning, there were many 14-16 hour days. I'm happy to say that's not the case anymore because, frankly, it would have killed me. I'm proud of the fact that we've sold every drop of beer we've brewed and haven't had to dump anything . . . yet, but we pay scrupulous attention to all aspects of the process and ESPECIALLY sanitation. Doing anything less invites problems.

Anyway, my $0.02.

Cheers,
--
Don
Partner / Head Brewer
Idyllwild Brewpub

Long overdue for a trip up to Idyllwild. I'll definitely hitting up your place after looking at your menu. Dubbel, Dopplebock, Wee Heavy? Put an Old Ale on there and I'm likely to not leave.

 

[bkboiler]

To a certain extent, I totally understand where most of you are coming from. When I started building my brewery, my goal was to have as diverse a selection of beer styles that I could reasonably maintain with the emphasis NOT on IPAs. While I think they're a wonderful style of beer and are remarkably popular right now, I had grown weary of walking into pubs/breweries and seeing six or eight of ten taps devoted to IPAs. With that in mind, I set out to provide some choices. At this point, I have 21 beers on tap that are all brewed on the premises. I have everything from Berliner Weisse to Barleywines aged on peaches in bourbon barrels, Irish reds aged in rum barrels to barrel-soured beers, real lagers and pilsners to fruited wheat beers, and, of course, many of the "usual" suspects, Browns, Porters, Stouts, Scotch Ale, many Belgians, etc. Yes, I do have IPAs, but only three out of 21 taps. I have a session, our "regular," which is a balance between English and west coast, and I have a IIPA. The session and IIPA are fermented HOT with Hornindal so they're not the usual suspects. I do not currently have any NEIPA, though the session and IIPA have some of the same attributes.

Having said all that, I don't claim to be a "master brewer" because I don't believe in the moniker due to the fact that brewing is as much art as it is science and I don't think anyone can really master all of it. Are all my beers world class? Of course not, but that doesn't mean I don't continually tweak the recipes I know can be better every time I brew them. At this point, I probably have about 3/4s of the over 40 styles of beer that I've offered at the pub in final recipe form. The rest are still in development to one extent or another. It makes brewing interesting to make slight changes to see how they affect the final product.

In the end and IMHO, if a beer is well brewed and clean, it comes down to whether or not a person likes the flavors presented. It's totally subjective. There is a lot of playing around with style guidelines these days, which I think is a good thing, so necessarily nailing a style or comparing a "composite" beer to a strict style isn't always preferred for some. For example, I often have customers tell me "I don't like dark beer." I tell them that's cool but "dark" isn't a flavor descriptor. I then question them a bit about what they do like in a beer and try to give them samples of dark beers that seem to align with what they're looking for. Literally, nine times out of ten they like one of the dark beers I've given to them and end up ordering a glass. To me, that's one of the most rewarding aspects of being a brewer; that is, turning someone on to a beer they would have never tried otherwise.

I had been home brewing for 25 years when I turned "pro," wrote for a magazine called Brewing Techniques in the 90s, and entered and won some competitions, but I was DEAD SCARED when it came time to open our pub. In fact, I missed our grand opening because I was in the hospital with atrial fibrillation due to the stress of four years building the place and then stepping into the brewery to produce our product. Opening a brewery isn't for the faint of heart and it requires constant dedication and an unwavering work ethic. In the beginning, there were many 14-16 hour days. I'm happy to say that's not the case anymore because, frankly, it would have killed me. I'm proud of the fact that we've sold every drop of beer we've brewed and haven't had to dump anything . . . yet, but we pay scrupulous attention to all aspects of the process and ESPECIALLY sanitation. Doing anything less invites problems.

Anyway, my $0.02.

Cheers,
--
Don
Partner / Head Brewer
Idyllwild Brewpub

Nice! Glad to hear your journey! I'll put u on my Yelp bookmarks so I get a reminder next time I'm in idyllwild to check out your spot..bout 2 hr drive from where I'm living otherwise I'd head there right now...

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

It's rare when you come across an upstart brewery that excels in more than one style.

 

[Brewmasher]

To a certain extent, I totally understand where most of you are coming from. When I started building my brewery, my goal was to have as diverse a selection of beer styles that I could reasonably maintain with the emphasis NOT on IPAs. While I think they're a wonderful style of beer and are remarkably popular right now, I had grown weary of walking into pubs/breweries and seeing six or eight of ten taps devoted to IPAs. With that in mind, I set out to provide some choices. At this point, I have 21 beers on tap that are all brewed on the premises. I have everything from Berliner Weisse to Barleywines aged on peaches in bourbon barrels, Irish reds aged in rum barrels to barrel-soured beers, real lagers and pilsners to fruited wheat beers, and, of course, many of the "usual" suspects, Browns, Porters, Stouts, Scotch Ale, many Belgians, etc. Yes, I do have IPAs, but only three out of 21 taps. I have a session, our "regular," which is a balance between English and west coast, and I have a IIPA. The session and IIPA are fermented HOT with Hornindal so they're not the usual suspects. I do not currently have any NEIPA, though the session and IIPA have some of the same attributes.

Having said all that, I don't claim to be a "master brewer" because I don't believe in the moniker due to the fact that brewing is as much art as it is science and I don't think anyone can really master all of it. Are all my beers world class? Of course not, but that doesn't mean I don't continually tweak the recipes I know can be better every time I brew them. At this point, I probably have about 3/4s of the over 40 styles of beer that I've offered at the pub in final recipe form. The rest are still in development to one extent or another. It makes brewing interesting to make slight changes to see how they affect the final product.

In the end and IMHO, if a beer is well brewed and clean, it comes down to whether or not a person likes the flavors presented. It's totally subjective. There is a lot of playing around with style guidelines these days, which I think is a good thing, so necessarily nailing a style or comparing a "composite" beer to a strict style isn't always preferred for some. For example, I often have customers tell me "I don't like dark beer." I tell them that's cool but "dark" isn't a flavor descriptor. I then question them a bit about what they do like in a beer and try to give them samples of dark beers that seem to align with what they're looking for. Literally, nine times out of ten they like one of the dark beers I've given to them and end up ordering a glass. To me, that's one of the most rewarding aspects of being a brewer; that is, turning someone on to a beer they would have never tried otherwise.

I had been home brewing for 25 years when I turned "pro," wrote for a magazine called Brewing Techniques in the 90s, and entered and won some competitions, but I was DEAD SCARED when it came time to open our pub. In fact, I missed our grand opening because I was in the hospital with atrial fibrillation due to the stress of four years building the place and then stepping into the brewery to produce our product. Opening a brewery isn't for the faint of heart and it requires constant dedication and an unwavering work ethic. In the beginning, there were many 14-16 hour days. I'm happy to say that's not the case anymore because, frankly, it would have killed me. I'm proud of the fact that we've sold every drop of beer we've brewed and haven't had to dump anything . . . yet, but we pay scrupulous attention to all aspects of the process and ESPECIALLY sanitation. Doing anything less invites problems.

Anyway, my $0.02.

Cheers,
--
Don
Partner / Head Brewer
Idyllwild Brewpub

I totally agree with your philosophy. If I ever find myself on the west coast, I will stop by and sample some of your beers!