Beer Tools Pro 1.5 released - Talk about it here!

[Bobby_M]

I'm starting this thread in anticipation of a lot of increased interest in BTP 1.5 since it now includes a free trial (lack of which kept a lot of people away).

My opinion even in advance of this release is that Beersmith still remains the most intuitive for new brewers (even if at the heart of the program, the complexity and flexibility is there).

Now that I've used BTP for over a year and have beta tested 1.5, I feel like it does just about everything I need it to (and more than I need). There are a couple of pet peeves about the way certain features are implimented and I won't go on a rant about it just yet, but overall I'm pleased.

Discuss...

 

[McKBrew]

I just download a few minutes ago. I didn't test the Beta due having an issue with it locking up my computer and I was too lazy to investigate further. The one benefit I see already is not having to go through seperate windows to view/add ingredients.

 

[StunnedMonkey]

I actually like this release. I originally bought v1.0, but never warmed up to it for some reason. I ended up buying Beersmith. I downloaded BTP 1.5 today and entered my whopping 4 recipes in it, and I must say I like it much better than the previous version...though I didn't use the previous version very long.

I'm darn new to brewing software and I'm sure I don't yet use it to the depth of many of you (I don't maintain an inventory for example) so I'll leave the detailed analysis to other more experienced users, but I will say that if you tried Version 1.0 and found it clunky, it might be worth the free download to give 1.5 a look. Me...I'll watch this thread to get other's comparisons. But I think there's a good chance I might make BTP 1.5 my main program.

 

[flyangler18]

I downloaded it to give it a shot. It looks like a slightly more complicated program compared to Beer Alchemy (which I currently use because I am a dedicated MacHead)- but I'm looking forward to digging into something new.

Now, that I am keeping more ingredients on hand regularly, the inventory options are appealing.

 

[Bobby_M]

Also dig the new direct edit in the recipe ingredients list/hop schedule. You used to have to select the ingredient and go down to the common "amount" window. If it was a hop, you'd do the same and enter the amount and boil time. Now you enter that info right in the same line which makes for quick changes.

The inventory feature still needs some investigating. I know there were some problems with the early beta implimentation and I haven't followed the updates closely enough to figure out how "subtracting from inventory" was done. Checking the user manual now.

 

[olllllo]

I have this d/led but I'm holding off until I understand the following:

Lets talk about the installation. Can this be installed in parallel or will this replace my installation?

What's the learning curve. Can you install this and still function with out a lot of hassle?

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm pretty sure it's parallel because I just had mistakely launched the old version 3 times before I figured out the correct shortcuts.

Second, even if it did, 1.5 took all of 10 minutes to do the types of things I was already used to. Sure, maybe you'll need to spend some time figuring out the inventory feature but you don't have that now.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Interesting.

They have a manual now? Nice. that was one of the main complaints I had about BTP. Not very intuitive on set-up and no manual. Early on, the best they had was a woefully undeveloped wiki that relied mostly on user additions of instruction. Geesh!

Looks like their supportg site has upgraded some too. Now that was the one thing I DID like about BTP, nearly instant support. Not just from fellow users but from the developers. Additionally, nearly every suggested addition had been worked into the continuous updates.

I think the meani reason why I switched away was because BTP was an ongoing developement but, of course, that was very early in it's release.

I'll have to check it out again. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[brewt00l]

I ran the old version parallel w/ the beta and haven't used it once since I started with the betas....now, I pulled it off my comp with the official release.

Bobby, IIRC the inventory feature works like so:
Add your inventory in to the My grains, hops, ect
Put a recipe(s) into the Planned recipe folder
Window menu -> Shopping List
Deduct then removes the items from your inventory

The one thing I don't like (and mentioned in beta testing phase) is editing the ingredient aspects in the recipe. I would pref to be able to tab between the different fields and have time/measurement a separate field to aid those of us that like using the keyboard over the mouse.

 

[flyangler18]

Hmm if there's one thing that I'm having some difficulties figuring out, it's the batch sparges. Perhaps I'm not finding it. Does BTP require you to set the sparge amounts based on typical formulas (preboil volume - first runnings), or do I need to calculate this?

 

[Brew-boy]

I hate beersmith myself and I been a user of beer tools 1.0 and the beta 1.5 and I got to say for me it is a Much better program. Online help files are another issue.

 

[Bobby_M]

Hmm if there's one thing that I'm having some difficulties figuring out, it's the batch sparges. Perhaps I'm not finding it. Does BTP require you to set the sparge amounts based on typical formulas (preboil volume - first runnings), or do I need to calculate this?

It's completely flexible. I personally set my finished boil size first and lock it. Then I figure out how long I'm boiling and enter that. I have it set for 1.5 gallon per hour boil off and that is what ultimately triggers the necessary preboil volume.

Now switch to schedule and setup your steps. You'll need to add the following by right clicking:

New Mash In (set your infusion rate and desired temp)
New Rest (sac rest for how long?)
New Batch Sparge (if you like to take runnings before a batch infusion, leave the first infusion at zero. Hit the plus sign to add additional infusions/runnings.

I think the lack of complete presets is what throws current users of beersmith the most. This isn't really a hand holding program because it's so flexible.

 

[flyangler18]

It's completely flexible. I personally set my finished boil size first and lock it. Then I figure out how long I'm boiling and enter that. I have it set for 1.5 gallon per hour boil off and that is what ultimately triggers the necessary preboil volume.

Now switch to schedule and setup your steps. You'll need to add the following by right clicking:

New Mash In (set your infusion rate and desired temp)
New Rest (sac rest for how long?)
New Batch Sparge (if you like to take runnings before a batch infusion, leave the first infusion at zero. Hit the plus sign to add additional infusions/runnings.

I think the lack of complete presets is what throws current users of beersmith the most. This isn't really a hand holding program because it's so flexible.

So, let's say my average batch is 5.5 gallons and I aim for 6.75 gallons pre-boil volume with my average evaporation rate of 1 gallon/hour. Using my Short and Stout recipe, I should have 2.81 gallons at dough-in.

Now for my runnings. Splitting my sparge volume into two separate volumes according my usual .5 gallon/lb should give me 5 gallons total sparge water (2.5 per infusion). BTP is giving me 2nd and 3rd infusions of 1.35 gallons? I know what I want to get to- just having trouble having BTP get me there.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'll work it up on my boss's time tomorrow morning.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Yeah. So, I played around with the set-up a bit last nite (til 2:00am). I haven't gotten into the recipe formulation yet.

While there is a User Manual now it's still non-specific about a lot of the features. For instance, while for some it may be obvious, they say nothing about the refractometer tool and calibrating the correction factor.

Furthermore, you'd think that the included equipment profile would at least have some calibration info as a baseline. They included a keg kettle but didn't even set it up for volume or thermal data. Which means I can;t even use the boiler plate. I have to calibrate myself.

Finally, I am a little at odds about the elevation entries. You'd think that if elevation is important enough to the calculations that they;'d at least mention a way to determine what elevation you are at (web link) I spent a half hour trying to find search a site to find out what my elevation is and gave up.

Maybe it's not important but I also don't see a hop degredation tool. All the other softwares seem to think it's a worthwhile feature but BTP apparently doesn't. Other features that seem to be missing in BTP are Competition entry forms and some kind of "Brew Sheet".

Still looking to get into the "meat" of the program. So far I am optomistic but not yet swayed from BeerSmith and even then, I still wish thing were different over at Sausolito so a ProMash update could be released. IMO, if they'd take ProMashes engines and give them BTP's GUI that would be a nice formulator.

 

[Bobby_M]

Hmm, you talk about a lot of things I care nothing about so I never gave much thought. I suspect you can figure out if your elevation is relevent enough to matter by boiling some water and noting the temp. If it boils at 212, just leave the elevation at zero. 211F would be 500ft and 210F would be 1000ft, etc at about 1F drop per 500ft of elevation. Of course, are you sure your thermo is dead on? ;-) Portable GPS units also give you elevation if you have a Garmin or Magellen in your car.

On the hop degredation, I'm going to guess that they just didn't find it all that important. There are so many factors like time, temperature and oxygen exposure, it could be difficult to be accurate.

I think they had much bigger plans on integrating user submitted calibration data for known vessels and heat sources but it probably would have delayed the 1.5 release for a while longer. I don't see ANY presets... where are you finding that? All competitions require different entry information so how could it anticipate that?

Granted the recipe printout doesn't have a literal step by step "do this, then do this" format but it does contain MOST of the info you'd need to run the recipe including the all grain schedule, hop schedule, etc. You'll have to build a recipe and schedule for that to show up in the printout.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Use the "Display" drop down above the ingredients window, select equipment vessels and it should result a list of four preset pieces of equipment, one being a keg kettle, but (IMO) they are useless because they don't include any information in the profile. The volume isn't even preset but, I understand that not all 1/2 barrel kegs are created equal. Still, I expected to see at least a boiler plate kettle profile based on a basic american sanke half barrell.

I have since found my elevation and I have seen a image of the printout. The printout is nice but should be scaleable to force to a single page or have the option to exclude things. Maybe I just haven't figured out how to do that yet. Like I said before I am still getting re-familiarized with BTP. I have been using BeerSmith so long now anything else is like a foreign language.

I am thinking that since BTP already takes elevation, air temp, and expansion into account for various reasons that it seems only logical to have a humidity field and tie all these factors together into a boil off estimator tool.

Maybe that is harder to do than I expect but.......

As for the comp forms (labels), I really don't care about those. I just made the observation that they aren't there in BTP.

 

[Bobby_M]

That's really weird. I don't have any vessels listed. It could be something to do with the fact that the beta files were present on my system (with no presets) when I installed official 1.5. My vessels list is ZERO.

 

[StunnedMonkey]

That's really weird. I don't have any vessels listed. It could be something to do with the fact that the beta files were present on my system (with no presets) when I installed official 1.5. My vessels list is ZERO.

I dunno. I have no vessels listed either, and I never had the beta installed. I just assumed one had to create their own vessels.

 

[Bobby_M]

Now I'm prone to think that you had setup some vessels in your earlier install of BTP and it got carried over.

Oh, this is the kind of info you'd like to see included:
http://www.beertools.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2365

I think the hesitation of including it is that they have no way of knowing if it is accurate and probably feel like including it in the installation would suggest that they think the data is good.

 

[flyangler18]

I wonder if a template could be created for the more common vessels, including presets. I'm thinking about the ubiquitous 5 and 10 gallon Gott MLT, 30 and 40 QT aluminum turkey fryer stockpot that many of us are using.

 

[blacklab]

I wonder if a template could be created for the more common vessels, including presets. I'm thinking about the ubiquitous 5 and 10 gallon Gott MLT, 30 and 40 QT aluminum turkey fryer stockpot that many of us are using.

I've been using BTP from the beginning and always wondered that. I've never set up my vessels in software - no time to measure and test them.

However, I use it exactly like bobby. Just lock your final volume and figure out the evap rate - the software will calc the rest for you.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Now I'm prone to think that you had setup some vessels in your earlier install of BTP and it got carried over.

Oh, this is the kind of info you'd like to see included:
The Hop Vine :: View topic - Database for equipment...

I think the hesitation of including it is that they have no way of knowing if it is accurate and probably feel like including it in the installation would suggest that they think the data is good.

Thanks for the link.

That at least gives me a ballpark calibration until I can do my own. I suspect that since all 3 of my vessels are the same I will only ned to do one calibration and can carry the numbers to each vessel but, until then, it's still nice to have a baseline to play (get familiar) with the mash editor.

As for the pre-existing remnants carried over from earlier versions, I dunno. BTP1.5 install in it's own program file and I have not run any scans. Maybe it did carry and I assumed it was a preset.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I wonder if a template could be created for the more common vessels, including presets. I'm thinking about the ubiquitous 5 and 10 gallon Gott MLT, 30 and 40 QT aluminum turkey fryer stockpot that many of us are using.

I am still not familiar enough to say for certain but I think you can. I am tempted to install it at work but am reluctant as I knwo I'd never get anything done (besides, tooling in BTP will cut into my HBT time).

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I have this d/led but I'm holding off until I understand the following:

Lets talk about the installation. Can this be installed in parallel or will this replace my installation?

What's the learning curve. Can you install this and still function with out a lot of hassle?

I think you can as long as.......

You don't get yourself hung up on the tweaky bits (like equipment calibration), which I find impossible to ignore. Without the calibration info set I feel compelled to not trust temp calcs that are tied to equipment.

It prolly doesn't make a huge difference anyway as long as you trust your thermometer.

 

[Padstack31]

Just downloaded this, so pumped to give it a shot. I'm really excited about the inventory feature, I get so confused as to how many ounces of what hop I have on hand. Same for all those speciaity grains that I seem to accumlate a few lbs at a time...love the idea from the iPhone post about creating an app that could sync with this software and provide calaculators on the fly....

 

[Bobby_M]

Once someone calibrates a given vessel (assuming accurately) they can share the numbers with other users. That thread over on the BT forum is a good place to post those results. At the same time, you can save the file as a template and share that with others too.

On the inventory front, you have to make sure you go into the inventory screen for a given recipe and tell it to subtract this recipe's ingredients from the inventory. I had a rather annoying time try to explain what I THOUGHT the functionality should have been during the beta process. See, when you build a recipe from stock ingredients, you better subtract them immediately if you plan to construct a second planned recipe otherwise you'll have two recipes fighting for the same stock. I tried explaining that there should be a way to undo ingredient to recipe coupling. I suggested a simple checkbox in the "my recipes" list that says "dedicate ingredients stock?" or somesuch. That way, if you decide to hose that recipe later, the ingredients would go back into inventory. Right now, you have to manually say "subtract them" and once you do, you better be darn sure you're brewing that recipe because putting everything back is manual. OK, not the end of the world but it could have been a little more slick.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I am not 100% certain of this but, I don't think BeerSmith is any more intuitive with respect to Inventory handling.

I do like your tick box suggestion. And I can understand why it got vetoed, Too simple and logical.

Funny you mention tho' because I did read a bit about the "Planned Brews" asset folder and how it ties into Inventory and reports on the shopping list.

Maybe that is what you need to get familiar with to resolve your Inventory headaches.

I can;t remeber if the manual addressed that with regards to "Planned Brews (Recipes?)" or with the "Shopping List" but there is something in there I swear it.

 

[Bobby_M]

Wait, you mean I can learn things from the user manual? Highly irregular for BTP.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Wait, you mean I can learn things from the user manual? Highly irregular for BTP.

Yeah I know what you mean. I had to peel myself off the wall when I posted that response because I realized there is some use for the User Manual.

But, not enough to print it out.

And while BS didn;t offer much in the way of example descriptions they did go into some detail on the specifics of each and every user adjustable field.

Heck, the installation instructions alone covered 37 pages