Beer line tests & solution to the "plastic" taste

[spotter]

I was hoping to hear where people ended up with thier tubing solutions?
Conpewter, Diablotastic, noisy123?
Has anyone had luck with the tygon - if so were you using the chem resistant or the Ultra? Any good US sources for the Bev-seal?

I went with the Bev-Seal. I called locally, the US manufacturer (Accuflex) and a list of US distributors they gave me. In the end I took the plunge and ordered the minimum 500' of it.

Why? When my through the wall setup is done, access to the back of the shanks will be a major effort. It's worth making sure I do it right the first time. I'll have a ton of tube left over, and am planning to offer cut lengths to anyone at my cost (about $0.25/ft plus shipping) and hopefully eventually I'll have just paid a good price on what I need.

Huge thanks to Kal for his great posts. I started researching what to buy last weekend, found HBT through one of his posts and learned a ton. I'm definitely at the starting stages- this is my first setup, first HBT post, and I just ordered everything yesterday. Also thanks to everyone else in the thread, especially jwright, you have me curious about my air hose, but at least I'll be able to access that if I need to replace.

 

[digitalride]

I went with the Bev-Seal. I called locally, the US manufacturer (Accuflex) and a list of US distributors they gave me. In the end I took the plunge and ordered the minimum 500' of it.

If spotter or anyone else is willing to sell 10-50 feet of Bev-Seal (3/16" would be nice but I guess it only comes in 1/4"), I'd gladly pay the cost per foot plus shipping plus $20 for your trouble. I can't believe any home brew stores carry it. They all say that the line they sell is tasteless and odorless, but if you let it sit a few days I'm convinced they all will leave a bad taste. My line from kegconnection gives a bad taste after only a few hours, and supposedly it is bevlex which is supposed to be good.

 

[piperbrew]

Has anyone purchased from this company? The two prices they have posted are surely not for a 500' spool, even though it seems to imply they are.

 

[spotter]

My setup is up and running. A bit over 20' of tubing, about 12 outside the fridge. Copper tubing with a pond pump in a glycol reservoir to keep the lines outside the fridge cool.

With the beer at 38 degrees, a rise of just over 2 feet, and 11-12 PSI the system seems pretty well balanced. That means the resistance per foot is in the .40 to .45 PSI range. As expected, no sign of taint.

Plenty of kinks to work out, the first pour is wild, everything after that is great. I'm pretty sure the beer in the lines is getting too warm. There's some insulation improvements I can make near the last foot, but I think I'm going to move the pump into a freezer area and see how that goes first.

 

[spotter]

Has anyone purchased from this company? The two prices they have posted are surely not for a 500' spool, even though it seems to imply they are.

Options:
That's not where mine came from, but you can always call them- I actually ordered 500' of 6 bundled 3/8 lines (4 beer 2 glycol) for about $30 total from someplace. Then I realized it was 3/8, which meant I'd need all 500' to balance anything

I was just re-reading the thread, I missed back on page 8 where Better Bottle was selling cut lengths for 0.49/foot.

I'm selling off my extra @ 0.25/foot. I've not shipped over 60 feet, but the shipping is generally around $10.

 

[ridd]

As for it being in my head, I had a few other people (brewers and non-brewers) taste water samples without telling them which hose they came from, nor did I mention what the off-taste tasted like. I had them rate them and most people rated the order the same as me, and noticed what they called a 'plastic' or 'rubber band' or 'rubber boot' taste. If you don't notice it yourself, good for you! Enough others have posted recent threads on the subject that I don't think I'm alone.

this is a very informative post, and I really can appreciate all the time and effort you put into testing this, and I wish more people did it (myself included).

That said, not to be rude, but reading this section stuck out to me, mostly because I'm very rationally-minded. I apologize if this was already addressed (10-page post), but the section I bolded in the quote seemed very unscientific to me. In my eyes, to get a truly objective opinion, you must perform a double-blind test in order to receive the most accurate of results. In other words, ensure when you have others taste-testing, they cannot know that they are looking for any off-flavors at all. One way I can think of to do this would be a tasting survey, like so:

1. Rate the level of apricot taste from 1-10.
2. Rate the level of acidic taste from 1-10.
3. Rate the level of plastic taste from 1-10.

I'm not too keen on how a 'tasting' survey would go, and you've certainly done enough already, just wanted to throw my 2 cents in. What a great experiment, cheers!

 

[ace168516]

kal....thanks for such an informative post...this has really got my gears turning since I am going to be running (6) 35 ft lines to my bar...still not sure the route I will be taking...might but pre-bundled or try to make some, but got my head thinking.

Spotter...may PM you about your extra at some point...sure wish that bundle was an 6 line/2 glycol haha...would have saved me quite a bit haha.

 

[kal]

this is a very informative post, and I really can appreciate all the time and effort you put into testing this, and I wish more people did it (myself included).

That said, not to be rude, but reading this section stuck out to me, mostly because I'm very rationally-minded. I apologize if this was already addressed (10-page post), but the section I bolded in the quote seemed very unscientific to me. In my eyes, to get a truly objective opinion, you must perform a double-blind test in order to receive the most accurate of results. In other words, ensure when you have others taste-testing, they cannot know that they are looking for any off-flavors at all. One way I can think of to do this would be a tasting survey, like so:



I'm not too keen on how a 'tasting' survey would go, and you've certainly done enough already, just wanted to throw my 2 cents in. What a great experiment, cheers!

I don't remember the exact details but I could have sworn I simply had people taste the various water samples and tell me what they thought. They did however know that I was "rating" hoses so they probably guessed.

Yes, a double blind test would have been better but the important thing here is that everyone rated the hoses all the same way as me (from best to worst). I wasn't looking for anything truly scientific but just wanted to verify that it wasn't just me tasking something odd. Unscientific yes, but I wasn't trying for something that I could publish in Scientific American.

Kal

 

[jon]

most flexible hose has plasticizers in it that allow the plastic used to be flexible. often these plasticizers are somewhat volatile and leach out of the plastic. I can't imagine they are good for you, and they smell and taste bad. Bisphenol-A is something people have been hot and bothered about for a while, and it is supposed to have been in many plastic water bottles. I don't know what plasticizers are normally used for PVC, but the cheaper PVC from china, such as the air hoses you get with a cheap air compressor often reek for years. I usually dispose of these, as I would with any PVC hose that gave off smells and tastes that you would use for food and beer.

McMaster-Carr seems to have a lot of good info on the materials they sell, and for the speedy delivery times and the fact that you can return anything no questions asked, makes them my favorite place to get this stuff. not always the cheapest, but they have EVERYTHING.

Edit** made mistake, bisphenol A is not a plasticizer... the stuff that makes the stink and off tastes in PVC and some other tubing are Phthalates. **

 

[Scut_Monkey]

Has anyone used the Bev Seal Ultra 235 (1/4" ID) with the epoxy mixers from this thread? https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/cure-your-short-hose-troubles-100151/ This is the lined tubing that Kal says is the best but with 1/4" inner diameter.

Tubing:
http://kuriyama.thomasnet.com/viewi...-174-series-235-tubing?&plpver=1001&forward=1

I would like to buy the best tubing but I don't want 8000 feet of it in the keezer. I realize I could do like Kal mentioned and run at a lower pressure but I don't want the lower carb level. Should I just use 3/16" poly tubing? Confused as to what my best solution is.....

 

[Scut_Monkey]

Just wanted to point out that the company that sells bev-seal ultra 235 also has an American based company/location. The company name is different but the website is almost identical.
American Location:
http://kuriyama.thomasnet.com/viewi...-174-series-235-tubing?&plpver=1004&forward=1
Canadian Location:
http://kuriyama.thomasnet.com/viewi...-174-series-235-tubing?&plpver=1001&forward=1

I'll try calling them soon to see how much they sell the ultra 235 and I'll post back here when I find out.

 

[alphaking1]

Hey I just signed up so that I can post here and hopefully help out. I've had a similar problem over the last 3 years:

http://www.micromatic.com/forum/us-...y-home/6516-another-plastic-taste-thread.html

I recently bought 50' of Tygon B-44-4x after reading a post on another homebrew forum where a user said he switched to this and problem solved, most likely the same stuff as the BevSeal. The difference though is that I was able to order this stuff in 3/16 ID and 5/16 OD from usplastic.com. I had a bad plastic taste problem and after a lot of reading online, I installed 5' of this on Thursday. The plastic taste was gone completely, even on the first pour the morning after. But I now had a problem with it pouring too fast. Per a suggestion on the above forum link I changed it to 7' of line yesterday and it is now perfect. The taste is great, I am not wasting any beer and it pours perfect. So for anyone looking to keep the 3/16" ID I highly recommend this line.
Chris

 

[conpewter]

Check out www.betterbottle.com they sold me Bev-Seal tubing (1/4" ID) at a really good price and I could order as much or as little as I wanted.

 

[Scut_Monkey]

Check out www.betterbottle.com they sold me Bev-Seal tubing (1/4" ID) at a really good price and I could order as much or as little as I wanted.

Thanks for the info. Do you remember how much it costs per foot? Also how were you able to balance your lines, super long beer line, low serving/carb pressure or by inserting flow restrictors such as the epoxy mixers?

 

[conpewter]

Thanks for the info. Do you remember how much it costs per foot? Also how were you able to balance your lines, super long beer line, low serving/carb pressure or by inserting flow restrictors such as the epoxy mixers?

I bought the tubing in the spring. 45 cents a foot, got 80 feet for $41 shipped. I don't have the other info yet as I've had too many other projects to actually get my new taps up and running. I plan to be dispensing from the kitchen (first floor) and the fridge is in the basement. From what I can find the height difference should help with the balancing (plus the ~ 15 ft of tubing). If not I have the epoxy inserts to try instead.

 

[Scut_Monkey]

I bought the tubing in the spring. 45 cents a foot, got 80 feet for $41 shipped. I don't have the other info yet as I've had too many other projects to actually get my new taps up and running. I plan to be dispensing from the kitchen (first floor) and the fridge is in the basement. From what I can find the height difference should help with the balancing (plus the ~ 15 ft of tubing). If not I have the epoxy inserts to try instead.

I want to get the best line but I don't have any experience with balancing the system so I would have no idea how much I need per tap. I'm thinking I'll get some basic poly tubing at Home Depot for cheap and see if I'm happy with the results on one tap. If it works for me I'll use it for the others.

 

[foles]

Has anyone determined whether certain chemicals, or certain minerals in water (maybe chlorine) bring out this plastic taint in vinyl & poly beerlines? Mine turns absolutely horrible after only being left in the line for less than 5 minutes. I've even tested brand new vinyl tube with tap water and it taints it to the point it is not drinkable.

 

[Hotspur]

It's probably the vinyl. Get some lined tubing like Tygon Beverage and Dairy, or the Bevseal. Vinyl/plastics release a lot of nasty chemicals as they age, and lined tubing puts an inert barrier between that and your beer/water.

 

[Synovia]

I checked out that line and it says its not to be used on Ice makers and its not to be used where constant pressure will be applied.

I've been using that stuff with an RO/DI unit for a couple of years, and its exposed to house pressure (60+ PSI). I doubt 5-12PSI is going to cause an issue.

 

[foles]

It's probably the vinyl. Get some lined tubing like Tygon Beverage and Dairy, or the Bevseal. Vinyl/plastics release a lot of nasty chemicals as they age, and lined tubing puts an inert barrier between that and your beer/water.

No I'm pretty sure something else is causing it. Used about 5 types of beerline recently, and the same problem from new. Something is in the beer is reacting with the line after a few minutes. The few ounces of beer from the line looks cloudy, dull in colour and foams more. When the fresh stuff comes through it is ok, but not perfect as it passes through the line.

Its got me beat!? Is there a compound that could be in my beer that could cause this? I'm very strict with santitation. Maybe a PH thing? I do use a small percentage of acid malt in my beers to deal with alkaline water.

 

[Hotspur]

Were all five types of beer line vinyl, or were any of them actual FDA (or it's AU counterpart) approved beverage line? The Tygon stuff I bought is lined and completely inert - the beer doesn't change after sitting in the line for an extended period of time. I have some cheap tubing that I use for blowoff and whatnot, and it goes from clear to opaque if it sits in StarSan too long (ie, one day). I've left the Tygon lines full of StarSan for a week and it doesn't discolor at all.

That's why I suggested better lines. It may very well be the chemical makeup of the beer, but it's easier (and healthier, imo) to change the lines to something inert, rather than trying completely redo your beer.

 

[foles]

Just an update on my situation. I found a very badly pitted poppet on the keg. Also some corrosion on the inside of the post itself! Think this is my real problem. Wonder if this is what some other people are experiencing when it seems like very severe line tainting and only occurs on first pour?

 

[eeebigeee]

i ordered 100' of the 1/4" bev-seal tubing from better bottle but it is just _slightly_ too large for the shanks i have. (stainless elbows 4329AS-3E from micromatic)

any suggestions ?

 

[hukdizzle]

Has anyone tried this PET tubing from McMaster yet? Any objections to me ordering a 25 foot section of this to try?

Here is the part number on mcmaster.com, for some reason their website doesn't link directly very well.

Part # 5384K691

 

[hukdizzle]

How about Tygon formulated PVC such as this?

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23279&clickid=redirect

 

[eeebigeee]

I tried the Mcmaster part 5384K691 but it was too small to fit the shank. I returned it and then ordered the bev-seal tubing as described above.

Still looking for a solution.....

 

[samc]

Has anyone tried this PET tubing from McMaster yet? Any objections to me ordering a 25 foot section of this to try?

Here is the part number on mcmaster.com, for some reason their website doesn't link directly very well.

Part # 5384K691

Not an ideal solution for beer line. That stuff is pretty stiff and they do warn you that it will crack with continued flexing. I have some similar tubing I bought for another project and would not consider using it for my keezer set up.

 

[lamarguy]

Part # 5384K691

I believe that's the same stiff polyethylene tubing you can purchase at Lowes/Home Depot.

 

[hukdizzle]

I would really like to stay with a 3/16" solution to keep the hose clutter to a minimum in my keezer but if I have to go with 1/4" it's not that big of a deal I suppose. Did you order your tubing directly from Better Bottle? Do you know if they would sell it in a 50' section?

 

[hukdizzle]

i ordered 100' of the 1/4" bev-seal tubing from better bottle but it is just _slightly_ too large for the shanks i have. (stainless elbows 4329AS-3E from micromatic)

any suggestions ?

Actually if you're looking to get rid of that tubing I would probably take it off your hands as long as it would crimp down fine on a barbed ball lock. I have 1/4" SS tail pieces on my shanks so it shouldn't be an issue on that end.