I am a commissioned officer in the air force and looking to transition to the air national guard and go to law school. My question: can I combine the two, my future (hopefully) career as a lawyer and my love of brewing and beer? Anybody out there who does both if so what do you do and how awesome is it? Anybody who does and lives in Texas care to let me follow you around for a day and dream of ways to get your job?
Beer+lawyer=?
- Thread starter Jklinden
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During college there was definitely one lawyer around town that everybody called to get out of underage drinking charges. Is that what you had in mind? 
Sadly, the rather byzantine laws surrounding beer and brewing are one of the worst things about the hobby. In any kind of professional capacity, I suspect you'd spend most of your time helping people to navigate red tape.
On the flip side, if you become a legal crusader who seeks to overturn dumb beer laws, set up a paypal account and I'll donate!
Sadly, the rather byzantine laws surrounding beer and brewing are one of the worst things about the hobby. In any kind of professional capacity, I suspect you'd spend most of your time helping people to navigate red tape.
On the flip side, if you become a legal crusader who seeks to overturn dumb beer laws, set up a paypal account and I'll donate!
Jklinden
Well-Known Member
Perhaps I misrepresented my goal. I want to work for a brewery. I have no desire whatsoever to defend DUIs or public intox clients. I want to combine being a lawyer with being a brewer. Any ideas, experience ? Let me know
Right, that was the paragraph with the smiley face after it. The other two paragraphs were serious.
I have a company in an industry with many of the same concerns as brewing, and there is considerable need for lawyers to help navigate the extensive regulations. I don't own a brewery, but I know from friends who do that it is tough to find affordable legal representation familiar with the industry. Whether you'll be able to charge rates that will allow you to feed your family, however, is less certain.
dwarven_stout
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You could always be a brewer, with a law practice to pay the bills.
ReverseApacheMaster
Well-Known Member
There were some recent law grads somewhere in the midwest (I think Indiana) that graduated but decided to open a brewery.
Unless you work with a large brewery most are not going to have the cash, or need, for in house counsel. Most breweries hire firms that specialize in helping start ups and/or specialize in working with the TTB and state ABC. None of those jobs ever involve the lawyer doing anything with the brewing process.
Law school is a terrible way to waste 3 years of your life and rack up $150k in student loans if you don't have a very specific goal in mind (or family to put you in a firm). The market is horrible and most graduates are coming out of school making $30-60k and usually have to search for 6-9 months after graduation before they find a job.
Unless you work with a large brewery most are not going to have the cash, or need, for in house counsel. Most breweries hire firms that specialize in helping start ups and/or specialize in working with the TTB and state ABC. None of those jobs ever involve the lawyer doing anything with the brewing process.
Law school is a terrible way to waste 3 years of your life and rack up $150k in student loans if you don't have a very specific goal in mind (or family to put you in a firm). The market is horrible and most graduates are coming out of school making $30-60k and usually have to search for 6-9 months after graduation before they find a job.
At what point in the boil would you do that so as not to ruin the beer though? Unless you get it perfect, there's a good chance of spoilage.
jgln
Well-Known Member
So you would be called like "The Brewing Lawyer" or "The Lawyer Brewer"?
Can't see a large demand for lawyers at breweries. I mean I am sure they have them just good luck landing that job. My guess only large companies would hire someone full time and how many are there? I also don't think the business is so different you would need to be any special lawyer, you know, a brewing lawyer.
I guess a small brewery would be happy to have an employee who could wear both hats, but I don't see that being very lucrative for you.
But good luck and go for your dreams or they will never come true.
Can't see a large demand for lawyers at breweries. I mean I am sure they have them just good luck landing that job. My guess only large companies would hire someone full time and how many are there? I also don't think the business is so different you would need to be any special lawyer, you know, a brewing lawyer.
I guess a small brewery would be happy to have an employee who could wear both hats, but I don't see that being very lucrative for you.
But good luck and go for your dreams or they will never come true.
Well, lawyers are EXTREMELY bitter, so flavor additions are often considered best. Some people swear by first wort lawyering though.
I prefer to mash lawyer. Prolongs suffering, and my stainless mash paddle is a great additional tool.
Dry-lawyering is gaining in popularity as an alternative to flavor additions, because some of the bitterness still gets through, but I don't recommend this. Lawyers have managed to infect society itself... your beer really doesn't stand a chance if you don't boil it first. Besides, lawyers stink, so I'm not sure why anyone would be using them for aroma.
I prefer to mash lawyer. Prolongs suffering, and my stainless mash paddle is a great additional tool.
Dry-lawyering is gaining in popularity as an alternative to flavor additions, because some of the bitterness still gets through, but I don't recommend this. Lawyers have managed to infect society itself... your beer really doesn't stand a chance if you don't boil it first. Besides, lawyers stink, so I'm not sure why anyone would be using them for aroma.
I suppose you can, but I'm an attorney and practicing law takes up enough of my time. I want my hobbies to be completely separate from my work and for them to be me-time and I have no desire to mix the two of them up. Otherwise, it sucks the fun out of those hobbies.
JonM said:
This is true. Everybody that knew me was SURE I was going to go down a certain career path, and then constantly wondered why I wasn't.
Why would I want to ruin one of the few things in life that I deeply enjoy?
It depends on how you see it though. And I'm sure that some passions lend themselves to careers better than others - a full-on active hobby like brewing - where some of the biggest draws are total creative freedom and just being able to do what you want, when you want - doesn't seem to be too compatible with "job" IMO - not if you want to stay in business, anyways. I mean, you also want a job that you love. But the cobbler's children go barefoot for a reason.
Maybe if I owned my own brewery or brewpub, with full creative control, I wouldn't mind. Maybe. But that's only because it'd be doing what I already do, just on a much greater scale, and with a far greater opportunity to share my stuff with people. But then again, there's no such thing as full creative control - the market dictates most of what you brew. I'd really need something like the DFH brewpub, offering constant, small-batch one-offs. But it's difficult enough being successful in the brewing business... let alone being in the "experimental" brewing business.
And most of all, the stress of ensuring one's livelihood seems like the quickest way to turn a passion into an unpleasant chore...
Jklinden
Well-Known Member
Thanks for some amazing advice. Due
To my military service law school will be largely free so debt is a non issue. Any year where I am not deployed more than 200 days is a good year so the "suck" factor is not an issue for me. As for the market conditions I agree there is a glut of lawyers and a lack of jobs, I cannot change the market but I can raise my chances by Attending a competitive law school and doing well that's the best I can do.
For brewig, I understand being a brewery lawyer is a long shot, but I want to have an idea of what is out there. I like the advice of keeping my hobby separate perhaps one day I will go "pro" or just keep making
Awesome beer. Thank you all for the advice... If anyone in Texas wants to let me shadow you for a day (pro brewer or pro lawyer?)let me know. Many thanks
Josh
To my military service law school will be largely free so debt is a non issue. Any year where I am not deployed more than 200 days is a good year so the "suck" factor is not an issue for me. As for the market conditions I agree there is a glut of lawyers and a lack of jobs, I cannot change the market but I can raise my chances by Attending a competitive law school and doing well that's the best I can do.
For brewig, I understand being a brewery lawyer is a long shot, but I want to have an idea of what is out there. I like the advice of keeping my hobby separate perhaps one day I will go "pro" or just keep making
Awesome beer. Thank you all for the advice... If anyone in Texas wants to let me shadow you for a day (pro brewer or pro lawyer?)let me know. Many thanks
Josh
user 30639
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I'd imagine the number of lawyer for a brewery jobs out there are pretty slim. Small guys aren't going to have the need or budget for in-house counsel. I'm sure BMC is a combination of in-house and BigLaw firms. A quick check showed one lawyer opening at AB. Gotta be licensed in MO, it looks like the pay is pretty good, and you handle a wide variety of civil matters.
I'll give you the standard advice that I give anyone thinking about going to law school. Don't do it. The market is **** and shows no signs of rebounding. I lucked into my job, but I have friends that either graduated a lot higher than me, or went to far better law schools than I did who are either unemployed; or after a year of searching found a job that way underpays them. If you've got the air force paying for school, pick a useful career path.
I'll give you the standard advice that I give anyone thinking about going to law school. Don't do it. The market is **** and shows no signs of rebounding. I lucked into my job, but I have friends that either graduated a lot higher than me, or went to far better law schools than I did who are either unemployed; or after a year of searching found a job that way underpays them. If you've got the air force paying for school, pick a useful career path.
davefleck
Well-Known Member
The only breweries with in house council want experts in corporate law
Not to rain on your parade, but all law school students think like this. It doesn't mean they get hired when they graduate though. Raise your chances by studying something else if you can.
I have to agree with this. I can say that from the front lines. I'm not a lawyer, but office manager for a law firm. My brother is a lawyer, and he graduated from the University of Chicago Law School - a top 5 program, almost 3 years ago now. He still doesn't have a job at a law firm. I had managed to get him some contracting work at my firm for a time, and now he's clerking for his County Court, but that's not a long term gig. The market is BRUTAL right now for lawyers.
As to your original topic, I doubt that where you are (in Texas) you're going to find the type of legal work you're describing. Maybe in Colorado, St. Louis, or Milwaukee, where you could get a job with one of the big breweries as in-house counsel, or possibly getting hired on to whatever shop represents them. Most smaller breweries will simply hire counsel on a one-off basis, to handle incorporation, licensing, and the like. It's way too expensive to keep a lawyer on salary - the liability costs are astronomical.
ReverseApacheMaster
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Yep. Many/most of my colleagues at the law school I attend who are approaching graduation in the spring either think they are the exception to the bad market and will land a job or have an, "I know I won't have a job at graduation, oh well, everything will work out," attitude. I heard many 1Ls talking about how they were going to become federal judges and corporate counsel. One 1L told me she wanted to be in-house counsel so that's why she didn't need to know employment law. I hope she figures out what in-house does over the next three years.
user 30639
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This is the 100% truth right here.
Even if the OP were to graduate from law school debt free, there's still the issue of finding a job and the 3 years of your life you'll never get back.
I know on Facebook there is a business called the "Craft Beer Attorney". She specializes in brewery related law including startup, trade practices, and business law. Obviously all with the craft beer industry in mind.
Well, here's the real question: do you love the idea of studying law, or do you like the idea of being a lawyer at some point down the road? If it's the first, go for it; but, if law school is a means to an end, you might want to consider some other means.
jgln
Well-Known Member
Yeah, and I am thinking a job as a lawyer at a brewery no more exciting than a lawyer at any other corporation.
Exactly. It's a lifelong commitment to a very demanding lifestyle. However, if you have a genuine passion for it (and know the realities of the business - that is, you don't have romantic ideas about being Perry Mason and having super exciting courtroom moments left and right) then law school may be right for you.
But if you're thinking "Hey, I can do lots of things with a law degree other than practice law," or "I'll slog through the business for a while, make a bunch of money, then go do something else," then you should think about other things.
bowa41
Member
Jklinden said:
I am presently finishing up the first semester of my third year of law school, and already have a post-graduation job lined up. Many of my classmates are in the same boat, as well (albeit many are not).
All I can say is "experience, experience experience." I worked a non-paying internship during the summer after my first year. After that, I scored an excellent clerking position, managing approximately 10-15 cases at a time, including all discovery and motions, while making various court appearances on the cases (although, the ability to do this varies from state-to-state). After working there for approximately one year, I was offered a post-graduation job this past summer.
It is definitely possible to get a job after law school. However, law students aren't recruited by firms as they once were. As long as you're willing to put in the work (aside from the absolutely ridiculous amounts of work you'll be doing for classes and clinics), it's not really that hard to wind up with employment.
rsklhm10
Well-Known Member
I would have to agree with what others have said. First, it is no guarantee to come out of law school with a job. I got lucky and stayed with the firm I clerked for prior to graduation, which is how many secure jobs these days. Second, the majority of lawyers work a lot of hours, at least your first few years. I have been practicing a couple of years now and still put in long hours. Luckily, I do have time to brew consistently but do not believe that working in/owning a brewery at the same time would be possible.
Finally, as was stated previously, if you are using law school as a means to an end, then I would recommend doing something else. The whole idea that lawyers make tons of money is not exactly a true representation. Here in FL, I know lawyers who had to move back in with their parents because of the substantial student loans and not being able to afford to live on their own.
Ultimately, it is your decision. I would recommend you do what you think is best, but don't make an impulse decision.
Finally, as was stated previously, if you are using law school as a means to an end, then I would recommend doing something else. The whole idea that lawyers make tons of money is not exactly a true representation. Here in FL, I know lawyers who had to move back in with their parents because of the substantial student loans and not being able to afford to live on their own.
Ultimately, it is your decision. I would recommend you do what you think is best, but don't make an impulse decision.
ReverseApacheMaster
Well-Known Member
There are some opportunities. Some of our May grads landed jobs but most of them went to work for firms they clerked for in school and the firm was willing to take them on. Then again, there are a lot of students who clerked in hopes of getting a job offer but ended up continuing to clerk at $12/hr after they passed the bar because the firm wouldn't hire them on. On the other hand, a recent article in Student Lawyer encouraged students to move to India and take a $30k job at a legal outsourcing firm.
A big problem is that the law schools manipulate employment data so it looks like everybody gets a job. It doesn't work that way. The school you go to and your rank will have a big effect on your job prospects and pay prospects. Most 1st year attorneys start out making $60-70k but if you end up desperate for a job you may take a position making $30-40k.
I don't really know how the GI bill works but you might be better off than most with little or no debt squeezing you financially. If you are really committed to practicing law, no matter how poor you end up being, you'll probably be satisfied with your decision. However, if you want to make $70k you don't need to go to law school and waste 3 years. Get a high end sales job or get a job, get an MBA and get promoted.
Jklinden
Well-Known Member
I think I am more depressed and demotivated than before this thread ever started. I feel like I have worked my butt off as an officer in the AF for the last decade and now I want to not deploy and spend time with my family and am not qualified to really do much of anything and everyone wants me to quit trying to go to law school. I don't care about making a lot of money, if I did I would have stayed in. I care about making enough to feed my family and brew the occasional batch of beer. I like the idea of going to law school as a path to future service in the government, possibly in the FBI or justice department if i get lucky. I feel so lost and unqualified. Thanks to all those who honestly tried to help it is appreciated and I am simply frustrated right now.
samc
Well-Known Member
I would think that a Lawyer who was an officer in the military would have opportunities in the civilian world that non military lawyers don't have.
Seriously though, if you are going to get put off of your dreams, desires and goals by a bunch of know it alls (me included) on a public beer forum, then maybe you ain't cut out for legal work.
Drop and give us fifty - now !
And investigate the opportunities by networking with former military lawyers in public practice. You might find that they desire to hire people with military experience.
Seriously though, if you are going to get put off of your dreams, desires and goals by a bunch of know it alls (me included) on a public beer forum, then maybe you ain't cut out for legal work.
Drop and give us fifty - now !
And investigate the opportunities by networking with former military lawyers in public practice. You might find that they desire to hire people with military experience.
Jklinden
Well-Known Member
Nah I wouldn't alter my life based on advice on this forum though I am impressed with the general level of expertise of those in this forum every day. I am having just an awful run of things here in general. Some opportunities I had lines up fell through and I thought I had this sweet gameplan worked out now I feel lost and alone. That in turn caused me to doubt my entire gameplan to begin with and so the cycle goes until the present where I really dont know how to balance everything and make a new plan. It's pretty easy when someone tells you what to do and where to go all the time...
There are things that are worse than being a lawyer, being unemployed, barely meeting your bills....
Or you could be, gasp, an accountant like me! I have been scouring adverts for finance geeks in the brewing industry. Nothing yet, someone hook me up!
Or you could be, gasp, an accountant like me! I have been scouring adverts for finance geeks in the brewing industry. Nothing yet, someone hook me up!
Carter5112
Well-Known Member
I think a degree in Industrial Engineering would pair well with ambitions to work in the brewing industry. Or Manufacturing Technology along those lines. Maybe something specialized in Biology to deal with Yeast.
I found that step 1 of growing up was freaking out that I didn't know what I was doing but there was no one there to tell me. Step 2 was figuring out that nobody knows what the hell they're doing and that sort of makes it all ok!
I found that step 1 of growing up was freaking out that I didn't know what I was doing but there was no one there to tell me. Step 2 was figuring out that nobody knows what the hell they're doing and that sort of makes it all ok!
Here's the punchline of it all: If you really love law, go for it. S*** will work itself out. If you don't particularly love law but are looking for a nice job, consider one of the many other equivalently professional, equivalently comfortable, and equivalently interesting careers out there with a better job market right now. I'm sure folks will help you brainstorm if nothing specific jumps out at you.
Vets (particularly officers) who take advantage of the GI Bill tend to do alright for themselves, and you have a wonderful opportunity (well earned) to pursue whatever you want to pursue without incurring scads of debt. I certainly understand the post-discharge feeling of directionlessness, but you're in a great situation. Use it however will make you happy.
I can attest to what Malfet just said about the GI Bill. I actually have two payments left on mine (to the end of this semester). I hit ten years since my discharge in January. While I didn't use every penny, I managed to gain a lot from it. If I hadn't changed directions, I would have finished a Bachelor's by now. Either way, I earned enough credits to be promoted in my job, and have enjoyed expanding my knowledge base with every class I've taken, always appreciating the fact that the GI Bill is a big "Thank you for your service" from the great nation we served.
Op, set my prior joke beside. The Air Force has JAG right? Or something similar? Why not go to law school while active, be a JAG lawyer till you hit your 20 and then hunt for a job after you've racked up that quality experience?
Jklinden
Well-Known Member
I am totally sold on the GI bill. I agree it is amazing. Part of my problem is exactly what maltfest said that I dont know what being a lawyer is. I know it's not perry mason or Matlock or anything, but I like the idea of serving others and perhaps wiling for the government again, something equally as fulfilling as serving on active duty minus the deployments and moving around the country every two years. I just don't know what's out there and feel like I have no skills that apply (I'm a navigator). I feel sort of lost and overwhelmed... The support here has been very cool and any ideas from those doing "cool" jobs I am all ears
Jklinden
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately I am in a career field that I cannot be released from. I am a navigator so either I stay in and fly or I get out, the air force doesn't want to pay me take three years off and go to law school, wish they would....
Jklinden said:
I'm sure if you go to law school while being part of a good sized veteran program you can make some damn good connections to be at least a little better off.
Are you willing to relocate? What about getting a doctorate in something you love and try being a professor?
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