Beer and blood pressure/cholesterol meds - feedback appreciated

[krazydave]

lol
Apparently there's another thing to add to the list of items not to discuss in a public forum. Cholesterol and beer consumption...
Gather that with politics, religion, and on this forum, the legal acquisition of sankey kegs

 

[Rev2010]

lol
Apparently there's another thing to add to the list of items not to discuss in a public forum. Cholesterol and beer consumption...
Gather that with politics, religion, and on this forum, the legal acquisition of sankey kegs

Tell me about it. Some people have nothing better to do than object it seems.


Rev.

 

[krazydave]

Here's something to ponder... I just got my lab results in from the test this morning. My total cholesterol is at 278 this time (should be less that 200, ideally).
Now, I had a bad week and ate nachos and tacos (amongst a heavy amount of homebrew).
That's a pretty good change in a weeks time, especially considering I drank 3 pints of DIPA the night before.


I guess I'll just have to wait until I see the doctor on Monday and see what he says. I'm baffled at this point.

 

[Rocky71]

Rev this is sort of on and off topic but this is as good a place to post it as any. I'm a Veteran and I go to the VA for medical treatments. They consider the following (you can verify it on their website). I did a cut and paste from their website.

Binge drinking is having:
More than 3 drinks on one occasion for women and adults over age 65.
More than 4 drinks on one occasion for men.

Honestly I about busted out laughing ^ when a friend told me about it. If you are a Veteran and the VA knows you have drank more then 4 beers in the same day they want to send you for treatment. This guidance says same occasion but the docs go by same day. It's a question they ask every veteran every visit. Can you imagine how many people they would try to send for treatment at a beer fest?

I have high cholesterol, more than you can get from a bad diet, so I just started taking meds. I guess I'll know in 6 months if they work along with my diet changes. But I was not warned about limiting alcohol at all.

 

[QsnotPs]

Total cholesterol does not indicate anything IGNORE THIS Total is a sum of HDL and LDL
If your doctor argues with this get a new doctor, hell, have him contact me, I'll put him in his place.
your LDL is what you need to be concerned with. If your LDL is high, then your cholesterol is more than likely exploding in your boold system at your heart. If your LDL is low, you are extremely healthy. HDL carries refuse away from the cells, these in excess is not a problem. The problem is when LDL cholesterol shows up at a cell's doorstep with a pizza, opens the box and it's filled with crisco. The cell says you can take that crap somewhere else. Well this / these cell(s) float around in the blood until too many of them start colliding, and exploding. This happens at the heart. These cross sections of arteries, veins with cholesterol, are not totally cholesterol, they're hydrogenated oils.
Beer does not cause high cholesterol, actually EVERY study done relating health to beer shows the person who drinks 2 beers daily is the healthiest person. The assumption as to why the myth "beer drinkers are unhealthy" exists is because beer drinkers eat unhealthily, therefore correlation vs. causation.
You all spend countless hours educating yourself on the making of beer, do some research on the ingredients list of the food you eat.

 

[pabloj13]

Total cholesterol does not indicate anything IGNORE THIS Total is a sum of HDL and LDL
If your doctor argues with this get a new doctor, hell, have him contact me, I'll put him in his place.
your LDL is what you need to be concerned with. If your LDL is high, then your cholesterol is more than likely exploding in your boold system at your heart. If your LDL is low, you are extremely healthy. HDL carries refuse away from the cells, these in excess is not a problem. The problem is when LDL cholesterol shows up at a cell's doorstep with a pizza, opens the box and it's filled with crisco. The cell says you can take that crap somewhere else. Well this / these cell(s) float around in the blood until too many of them start colliding, and exploding. This happens at the heart. These cross sections of arteries, veins with cholesterol, are not totally cholesterol, they're hydrogenated oils.
Beer does not cause high cholesterol, actually EVERY study done relating health to beer shows the person who drinks 2 beers daily is the healthiest person. The assumption as to why the myth "beer drinkers are unhealthy" exists is because beer drinkers eat unhealthily, therefore correlation vs. causation.
You all spend countless hours educating yourself on the making of beer, do some research on the ingredients list of the food you eat.

Ugh. What exactly are you basing the first part off of? While the ratio may be a better predictor, that does not mean total cholesterol is a scam.

 

[evrose]

Total cholesterol does not indicate anything IGNORE THIS Total is a sum of HDL and LDL
If your doctor argues with this get a new doctor, hell, have him contact me, I'll put him in his place.
your LDL is what you need to be concerned with. If your LDL is high, then your cholesterol is more than likely exploding in your boold system at your heart. If your LDL is low, you are extremely healthy. HDL carries refuse away from the cells, these in excess is not a problem.

Actually, it's a lot more complicated than that.

HDL doesn't "carry refuse". It functions by a mechanism called reverse cholesterol transport where it takes peripheral cholesterol and returns it to the liver. The liver then uses it to synthesize cell membranes and other essential hormones. Cholesterol is a vital precursor to a myriad of different endogenous hormones.

While total cholesterol is rarely used by doctors as an indicator of anything, current cholesterol panels don't stop at just LDL vs. HDL. For example, there are sub-categories of LDL, with small dense LDL (sdLDL) being the most associated with cardiovascular risk and plaque formation. New research is pointing to different sub-types of HDL as well. Even crazier are the EPIC and IDEAL studies (long-term prospective research protocols that look at large populations over time) which are showing INCREASED risk of cardiovascular disease associated with elevated HDL levels. This is likely because not all HDL is equal. More needs to be discovered before we have a better picture of what's really happening.

Doctors are well beyond simply saying "if your LDL is low, you are extremely healthy". Nope.

Also, this may be nit-picking, but plaque formation isn't limited to your heart. It can take place anywhere in the body, most commonly in larger, high-pressure vessels. However, it is most noticeable when pieces break off and lodge in small, end arteries. The coronary arteries are the most infamous because there is little collateral circulation. If the LAD (a major coronary artery feeding the left ventricle, often called The Widowmaker) gets jammed up, you're dead. There's nowhere else for the blood to come from. Most other muscles in the body get blood from multiple small arteries. An ischemic stroke is another example of a plaque blocking blood flow to a vital organ (in this case, the brain). (There are other causes of ischemic stroke, plaque rupture is just one.)

Then there's the issue of triglycerides, which are actually the most susceptible to dietary changes. Oh, and I almost forgot to mention VLDL and IDL, both of which are associated with cardiovascular risk.

Anyhow, I'm rambling, and I'm sure you know all of this, considering you can put doctors in their place.

Cheers,

Erich R., MD

 

[Rev2010]

Erich R., MD

Hi Erich. Do you have an online medical profile you can share? I looked up your name and simply can't find a single reference to your professional medical profile, a quite common thing available these days, only your blog. Each and every one of my doctors are locatable by name with a simple Google search, even my current doctor. I've tried Erich Rose and several variants but can't seem to locate any doctors with even your first name. Not doubting you at all, just would be great if you could provide a link your medical background. Thanks


Rev.

 

[pabloj13]

Hi Erich. Do you have an online medical profile you can share? I looked up your name and simply can't find a single reference to your professional medical profile, a quite common thing available these days, only your blog. Each and every one of my doctors are locatable by name with a simple Google search, even my current doctor. I've tried Erich Rose and several variants but can't seem to locate any doctors with even your first name. Not doubting you at all, just would be great if you could provide a link your medical background. Thanks


Rev.

Regardless, I'm not sure what difference it makes. He's not wrong.

 

[Rev2010]

Regardless, I'm not sure what difference it makes. He's not wrong.

I know he's not wrong with what he just said, But, I would prefer to be sure an actual doctor is talking when one signs "MD" and can't be found on any medical profession listing. For all I know he might be a Med student claiming to be a doctor.


Rev.

 

[pabloj13]

I know he's not wrong with what he just said, But, I would prefer to be sure an actual doctor is talking when one signs "MD" and can't be found on any medical profession listing. For all I know he might be a Med student claiming to be a doctor.


Rev.

If he's not wrong, I'm not sure how it matters. Note: I'm not a M.D. but I have my Ph.D. in Pharmacology.

 

[evrose]

Hi Erich. Do you have an online medical profile you can share? I looked up your name and simply can't find a single reference to your professional medical profile, a quite common thing available these days, only your blog. Each and every one of my doctors are locatable by name with a simple Google search, even my current doctor. I've tried Erich Rose and several variants but can't seem to locate any doctors with even your first name. Not doubting you at all, just would be great if you could provide a link your medical background. Thanks


Rev.

Erich Rose is not my name. Erich is, but Rose is not. Also, I don't have a blog, so whoever's you found, it's not mine. (Actually, Erich is my middle name. My real name used for my medical license is not part of my user name here.)

I don't mean to sound defensive, but I'm not going to give my real name. It's a privacy thing. I've been involved in online forums for years, and there are enough crazies out there who would call my office and start ranting out something I wrote on a beer brewing forum, cycling forum, football forum, etc. none of which is something I want to deal with at work. I'm not saying you're one of those people, but they are out there. I prefer to keep my online forum identity private. (If you think this is paranoia - it's not. I've seen it happen to more than one colleague over the past 10 years.)

Anyhow, if this diminishes the credibility of my comments in your eyes, that's fine. I understand that my not linking to my credentials or work bio makes it harder to "sell" my comments. Take what I wrote for what it is - some guy on the Internet who claims to be a doctor. Having said that, I am one, and you can verify anything I've written with online searches. The facts are out there - I don't make this stuff up. Ask your doctor.

Brew on fellow Homebrewers! I hope everyone's weekend went well (yeah, even you Rev, you wily ole rascal).

 

[Rev2010]

Fair enough man completely understandable, hope you had a great weekend too


Rev.

 

[erockomania]

I haven't read the whole thread but eating "very healthy" is a matter of debate. What the govt has told us is a "healthy diet" is a bunch of hogwash and misinformation. You COULD be eating very poorly but still be in FDA guidelines. Fact.

 

[Cromwell]

What's the difference between God and a Doctor?

God doesn't think he is a doctor.

Bwahahahaha. Ok, all seriousness aside... I haven't had BP problems so I don't have any anecdotes for ya, but you do talk about having a high-stress job, and I have a suggestion there - exercise is the very best way to relieve stress. Believe me, if you get out at lunch (you do get a lunch break) and walk or run, or just go up and down stairs or anything, you'll come back to work with less stress. I speak from experience on this one.

 

[cockybitz]

Want to avoid the statins but help cholesterol? Eat fish oil caplets. Studies are more and more showing the taxing effects of simvastatin on the liver. Fortunately Lipitor has gone generic this year, so that should play into people's budgets more, and it is better for the liver than Zocor, but of course comes with its own downfalls. Take this advice as you will. Studies show the greatest impact on cholesterol, however, remains fat level in the body, diet, and exercise.

 

[emjay]

Studies show the greatest impact on cholesterol, however, remains fat level in the body, diet, and exercise.

Actually, it's genetics by a *very* wide margin. But that can't exactly be helped, so lifestyle changes are always a good idea.

 

[cockybitz]

Sorry, greatest controllable impact

 

[boo boo]

Want to avoid the statins but help cholesterol? Eat fish oil caplets. .

I prefer seal oil caplets to fish, but that's a whole other story.

 

[evrose]

Studies show the greatest impact on cholesterol, however, remains fat level in the body, diet, and exercise.

Nope. By FAR the biggest factor in determining your baseline cholesterol level are the genes you get from your parents. Blame your mom and dad. Exercise and diet can certainly have an effect, but genetics is the largest predisposing factor.

Edit: Sorry, I read your reply correcting your statement to specify diet and exercise being the most correctable factor. That's true. Carry on.

In addition - the evidence for the benefits of fish oil is fairly well established in the realm of evidence based medicine. The precise mechanism is unknown, but it's believed to work by lowering levels of vascular inflammation - which is related to the production of atherosclerotic plaque formation. You need to take between 3,000 and 4,000 mg PER DAY to see a clinical effect in most people. That's a lot. I've been taking them for a while myself. It's been mentioned before in this thread, but the other OTC med for cholesterol is Red Yeast Rice. Many of my Family Medicine and Internist colleagues are recommending it for their patients. The active ingredient is chemically identical to lovastatin (Mevacor), but most preparations have a lower dose than a proper prescription of lovastatin.

 

[emjay]

Red Yeast Rice contains lovastatin if I'm not mistaken, which is also available in its pure form as a prescription drug.

And it's funny you mention fish oil's anti-inflammatory effects, as a good deal of recent research is showing that the anti- inflammatory effects of statins play a far bigger role in their effectiveness than previously thought, and that it's probably by this mechanism that they have been demonstrated to cause a significant decrease in both morbidity and mortality (ESPECIALLY cancer- related) even in people WITHOUT high cholesterol, to the point where some doctors are now recommending statins to almost ALL of their patients above a certain age.

 

[krazydave]

So, I saw my doctor this morning and he gave me a prescription to start taking Zocor (sinvastatin). I asked him about all this stuff this morning including if I were to try the red yeast rice thing, or fish oil and mentioned that I brew beer and drink on a regular basis.
He's a graduate of UC Davis, where you can get a degree in brewing science, so he understands why I brew, and why I drink it.
His response was basically what we all expected. "It's not advised, but it's also not horrible either unless you do it in excess, a lot.". Basically, he said to try cutting back on what I can and he'll run the liver tests on me in a month. If things look okay, he doesn't see any reason to stop drinking. But of course mentioned that it wouldn't hurt to slow down.
His thoughts on the rice and fish oil is that they may work, but there's a lot less studies done on them as they're just supplements. So he prefers something that tons of people have taken and they know all of the effects that it has on their bodies.

I'm 33, 198lbs. Three months ago I was 219lbs. That weight loss came from changing my diet alone. I'm not excited to say the least about having to take pills, so I'm going to start them and while I'm at it, get my arse in gear to start exercising more. When I feel like I'm not pushing the upper limits of the BMI, I'll stop the Zocor for a month or two and re-take my cholesterol tests (the doctor approved of this as well, in case you're wondering). If at that point I'm still high, then I'll be satisfied in that I've done all I can and my body just doesn't process the cholesterol like it should.

His explanation of the effects of alcohol taken with a statin is basically that when you drink, your liver is busy processing the alcohol and therefor lets too much of the statin into your bloodstream. Which is where the danger lies.